How Does the SLC PD View Mormons? LGBT?

[Mystery Meat]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I have not heard anything about this.  Have there been any lawsuits about this?  Investigation?  Media coverage?  

Thanks,

-Smac

No, at this point nothing and I doubt there will be. Seems like the people who are being targeted aren't the type to make a big deal of it.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

No, at this point nothing and I doubt there will be. Seems like the people who are being targeted aren't the type to make a big deal of it.

If I lost my job, and if I had a credible basis for suspecting that I lost it because of my religious affiliation, I would move heaven and earth to fight such corruption.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

Just now, smac97 said:

If I lost my job, and if I had a credible basis for suspecting that I lost it because of my religious affiliation, I would move heaven and earth to fight such corruption.

Thanks,

-Smac

So would I. A Salt Lake politician would be taking an extraordinary risk by purging the Mormons out of city hall, as if just one person complained, it could seriously damage her standing in a very important voting group.

[smac97]

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I was unaware of the thread that was closed, but I quite disagree that there is a problem with timing. The incidents are unrelated, and each warrants discussion in its own right if, for no other reason than, as you so aptly put it, "a threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

"A threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."  Daniel said that?  Really?

I guess he conveniently omitted an important caveat: "A threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, except for threats to the justice owed to Mormons, 'cuz Mormons don't deserve justice, and if you suggest otherwise I'll accuse you of not caring about the victims of the Orlando tragedy."

Or words to that effect.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

So would I. A Salt Lake politician would be taking an extraordinary risk by purging the Mormons out of city hall, as if just one person complained, it could seriously damage her standing in a very important voting group.

Agreed.  It would seem to be very hard to cover up that sort of thing.  And think of the optics involved.  News coverage about the lesbian mayor of SLC firing Mormons because of their religious beliefs/affiliation . . .  Man, the stories would write themselves.

I will give her the benefit of the doubt and assume her cordiality toward the LDS Church and its members has been sincere.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 15, 2016 by smac97

[Mystery Meat]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Agreed.

I can only pass on the information as it came to me.

[Daniel2]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

If I lost my job, and if I had a credible basis for suspecting that I lost it because of my religious affiliation, I would move heaven and earth to fight such corruption.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well, at least I can relate to you on this point, since that's how those of us who fear losing our jobs because of our sexual orientation feel... the difference is, we're still fighting for national protections of such.

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said:

I can only pass on the information as it came to me.

I can't speak to that.  We all have to evaluate evidence according to our best lights.  Anonymous hearsay about the gay mayor of Salt Lake City firing Mormons because they are Mormons is an explosive and disturbing claim.  As much as I respect and like you, I'm not inclined to give credence to unsubstantiated and anonymous hearsay about such serious things.

Mayor Biskupski has a tough job.  As a general rule, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.  All the more so when addressing personalities who are attempting to traverse a wide cultural divide that exists between the "gay community" (or at least significant portions of it) and the LDS Church and its members.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Well, at least I can relate to you on this point, since that's how those of us who fear losing our jobs because of our sexual orientation feel... the difference is, we're still fighting for national protections of such.

Well, this thread is about a Mormon who lacked such protections as pertaining to his religious beliefs.  And rather than discussing that, you chose to inject the Orlando tragedy as a guilt trip.  Or something.  How crass.  How unbecoming.

-Smac

[Daniel2]

59 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"A threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."  Daniel said that?  Really?

I guess he conveniently omitted an important caveat: "A threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, except for threats to the justice owed to Mormons, 'cuz Mormons don't deserve justice, and if you suggest otherwise I'll accuse you of not caring about the victims of the Orlando tragedy."

Or words to that effect.

Thanks,

-Smac

Of course, you already know that I said that in my original post, which you already responded to.

And yes--I actually included that quote which Scott mentioned, and which you responded to, with the exact intent of acknowledging that the topic of this thread certainly is worthy of discussion (although I don't believe your characterization of the issue is correct or accurate... which I may try to address in a subsequent post after taking a few days to process everything.  In the meantime, this probably isn't the greatest discussion for me to participate in, for now).

That being said, I understand how you could respond to my somewhat vague initial post by calling it an "incoherent guilt trip."  It was written from a place of mourning...helplessness...pain...concern...loss...even fear... A place that marvels at how I'm still processing my own emotional fall-out over a mass shooting of young gay men, many of which seem just like me, which resulted in mass murder and victimization, motivated by some unfolding mix of religious zealotry, anti-gay animus, and mental instability.  A tragedy which has largely been ignored here on the board, save for a brief thread in the "In the News" section which was inexplicably shut-down. 

Additionally, my 24-year old step-daughter, born and raised LDS, was just excommunicated on Sunday by her local bishopric after being repeatedly called and (in our opinion, harassed, due to his ignoring her repeated requests to be left alone--to stop calling, texting, and attempting to communicate with her) in to going in to see the bishop, despite her having moved to a new state, and despite never having met anyone in the local ward's boundaries and having not set foot in an LDS chapel in over 8 years.  She wasn't active... she wasn't vocal or participating in any anti-LDS activities... she was simply actively involved in a same-sex relationship with her fiancé.

And upon still trying to process all of this, I read--of all things--a thread claiming that gays (who have NO national protections in employment, and who, if they are inactive Latter-day Saints, are being systematically ostracized and excommunicated by the leadership of the LDS church) are over-privileged in this country, while Latter-day Saints are being oppressed in their employment.  In a nation where there are still no national legal protections from being fired simply for being gay.

The timing just struck me as painful--which is my issue, not anyone else's--and I responded with admitted, to use Smac's words, "incoherence."

For that, in all sincerity, I apologize, without reservation.

YES.  Anti-religious discrimination is NOT OK.  And while I'm not convinced that's what truly happened as alleged in the OP, it's appropriate to discuss.

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Daniel2

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

 D) meanwhile, an LDS police officer had his career destroyed ...

In fairness, I think it worth noting that, though Officer Moutsos was treated shabbily by the police chief and the department, and though he did no doubt suffer some mental anguish as a result, ulitmately his career in law enforcement wasn't destroyed. Eventually, he found a position with another police agency. Later, he got a post with the Sutherland Institute, a conservative think tank. And now, you tell us he is currently selling solar panels.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Of course, you already know that I said that in my original post, which you already responded to.

And yes--I actually included that quote which Scott mentioned, and which you responded to, with the exact intent of acknowledging that the topic of this thread certainly is worthy of discussion (although I don't believe your characterization of the issue is correct or accurate... which I will try to address in a subsequent post).

That being said, I understand how you could respond to my somewhat vague initial post by calling it an "incoherent guilt trip."  It was written from a place of mourning...helplessness...pain...concern...loss...even fear... A place that marvels at how I'm still processing my own emotional fall-out over a mass shooting which resulted in mass murder and victimization, motivated by some unfolding understanding of religion, anti-gay animus, and mental instability.  A tragedy which has largely been ignored here on the board, save for a brief thread in the "In the News" section which was inexplicably shut-down. 

Additionally, my 24-year old step-daughter, born and raised LDS, was just excommunicated on Sunday by her local bishopric after being repeatedly called and (in our opinion, harassed, due to his ignoring her repeated requests to be left alone--to stop calling, texting, and attempting to communicate with her) in to going in to see the bishop, despite her having moved to a new state, and despite never having met anyone in the local ward's boundaries and having not set foot in an LDS chapel in over 8 years.  She wasn't active... she wasn't vocal or participating in any anti-LDS activities... she was simply actively involved in a same-sex relationship with her fiancé.

And upon still trying to process all of this, I read--of all things--a thread claiming that gays (who have NO national protections in employment, and who, if they are inactive Latter-day Saints, are being systematically ostracized and excommunicated by the leadership of the LDS church) are over-privileged in this country, while Latter-day Saints are being oppressed in their employment.

The timing just left a sour taste in my mouth, and I responded with, to use Smac's words, "incoherence."

For that, in all sincerity, I apologize, without reservation.

YES.  Anti-religious discrimination is NOT OK.  And while I'm not convinced that's what truly happened as alleged in the OP, it's appropriate to discuss.

Thank you for the explanation.  

BTW, I have affirmatively avoided posting about the Orlando tragedy because first, there is no particular association with that tragedy to Mormonism (this is a themed message board, after all).  And second, I was concerned that my expressions of condolence and sadness and anger would not be taken well by some participants on this board who harbor strong sentiments against me and my faith and for the "gay community."  Put another way, I thought any statement I made, no matter how well-intentioned, would elicit acrimony.

I will now back off and leave you to your thoughts.  I wish you well.

[smac97]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In fairness, I think it worth noting that, though Officer Moutsos was treated shabbily by the police chief and the department, and though he did no doubt suffer some mental anguish as a result, ulitmately his career in law enforcement wasn't destroyed. Eventually, he found a position with another police agency. Later, he got a post with the Sutherland Institute, a conservative think tank. And now, you tell us he is currently selling solar panels.

I hope he's landed on his feet.  But being publicly branded as a bigot by his own boss could not have looked good on his CV.  In any event, his career with the SLC PD was certainly destroyed by this mess.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I hope he's landed on his feet.  But being publicly branded as a bigot by his own boss could not have looked good on his CV.  In any event, his career with the SLC PD was certainly destroyed by this mess.

Thanks,

-Smac

Indeed.

It appears he did land on his feet.

He has had three jobs since the incident. But I think it is fairly common in this day and age to change jobs frequently. I'm afraid I'm something of a throwback, having held the same job for going on 31 years now.

[Mystery Meat]

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

 

Nevermind. Poor timing.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[Scott Lloyd]

For what it's worth, here's a link to the thread on Moutsos. (Can't believe it was just last year; seems longer ago than that.)

And here's a link to the thread about the firing of Police Chief Burbank over an unrelated incident involving his dealing with a case of interdepartmental sex discrimination.

Footnote to the footnote: Burbank subsequently got a job with a law-enforcement think tank based in California. Says he doesn't want to be a police chief anymore. So he apparently landed on his feet as well.

All's well that ends well, I suppose.

 

Edited June 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

No second link, Scott.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

Yeah, its the Mayor. Folks I know inside the city government say she hates Mormons, and has been gradually purging them from their positions.

She met with officials from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Boy, would I have loved to be a fly on the wall at that meeting!

[Scott Lloyd]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

No second link, Scott.

Sorry. Just noticed. Fixed.

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

She met with officials from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Boy, would I have loved to be a fly on the wall at that meeting!

From what I recall, it was just brief cordialities.  And she gave them a memo, probably expressing her disapproval of the Church's policy on baptizing children in gay households.

No big deal.

Now if she starts putting pressure on Church leaders to change policy, I would call that inappropriate interference by government in the free exercise of religion.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

From what I recall, it was just brief cordialities.  And she gave them a memo, probably expressing her disapproval of the Church's policy on baptizing children in gay households.

No big deal.

Now if she starts putting pressure on Church leaders to change policy, I would call that inappropriate interference by government in the free exercise of religion.

Potentially, she walks a fine line, that's for sure.  As Jackie Biskupski, private individual, like the rest of us, she's certainly entitled to whatever opinions she holds, but the trick is, it's hard for public figures to keep their private opinions private.  If there were any hint in public about what that letter contains, you media/journalist types wouldn't be likely to accept "No comment" in response to questions about it for very long.  

Edited June 16, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[rodheadlee]

9 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Wow.

On this, of all weeks, Smac decides to launch a new thread attempting to spin Mormons as the persecuted minority, and gays and lesbians as the over-privileged class.

A day after a thread is closed by mods on the murder of 49 LGBT citizens, with over 50 wounded.

While a threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, and there certainly is a time and place to discuss such things, this timing boggles the mind.

Yeah... Latter-day Saints are the real victims in this country, today...

 

 

It was so sad. They just laid down like sheep. No one was willing to give his life that others may live. I would guess it's generational or perhaps cultural. Maybe everybody was just to tooned up to consider tackling the guy while he was reloading. I don't know, but it makes me really angry, those weren't just LGBT citizens, they were our LGBT citizens, American citizens. I also question the police waiting 3 hours to rush the building. Be careful out there Daniel.

[sunstoned]

8 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Of course, you already know that I said that in my original post, which you already responded to.

And yes--I actually included that quote which Scott mentioned, and which you responded to, with the exact intent of acknowledging that the topic of this thread certainly is worthy of discussion (although I don't believe your characterization of the issue is correct or accurate... which I may try to address in a subsequent post after taking a few days to process everything.  In the meantime, this probably isn't the greatest discussion for me to participate in, for now).

That being said, I understand how you could respond to my somewhat vague initial post by calling it an "incoherent guilt trip."  It was written from a place of mourning...helplessness...pain...concern...loss...even fear... A place that marvels at how I'm still processing my own emotional fall-out over a mass shooting of young gay men, many of which seem just like me, which resulted in mass murder and victimization, motivated by some unfolding mix of religious zealotry, anti-gay animus, and mental instability.  A tragedy which has largely been ignored here on the board, save for a brief thread in the "In the News" section which was inexplicably shut-down. 

Additionally, my 24-year old step-daughter, born and raised LDS, was just excommunicated on Sunday by her local bishopric after being repeatedly called and (in our opinion, harassed, due to his ignoring her repeated requests to be left alone--to stop calling, texting, and attempting to communicate with her) in to going in to see the bishop, despite her having moved to a new state, and despite never having met anyone in the local ward's boundaries and having not set foot in an LDS chapel in over 8 years.  She wasn't active... she wasn't vocal or participating in any anti-LDS activities... she was simply actively involved in a same-sex relationship with her fiancé.

And upon still trying to process all of this, I read--of all things--a thread claiming that gays (who have NO national protections in employment, and who, if they are inactive Latter-day Saints, are being systematically ostracized and excommunicated by the leadership of the LDS church) are over-privileged in this country, while Latter-day Saints are being oppressed in their employment.  In a nation where there are still no national legal protections from being fired simply for being gay.

The timing just struck me as painful--which is my issue, not anyone else's--and I responded with admitted, to use Smac's words, "incoherence."

For that, in all sincerity, I apologize, without reservation.

YES.  Anti-religious discrimination is NOT OK.  And while I'm not convinced that's what truly happened as alleged in the OP, it's appropriate to discuss.

 

You are not alone.  Others are heartsick and mourning.  We have experienced a terrible loss this week.

[rodheadlee]

On another SLC PD note, you all are a bunch of speeders, including the police. I drove southbound through SLC last week and everybody was hauling buns, way over the speed limit. I didn't want to discriminate so I put the hammer down too. 

Yes Smac there is a double standard regarding Mormons and the rest of the world, we are held to higher standard.

[Scott Lloyd]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

If I lost my job, and if I had a credible basis for suspecting that I lost it because of my religious affiliation, I would move heaven and earth to fight such corruption.

Thanks,

-Smac

Most of us would like to think we would do that. It's easy to say until you start to count the costs of doing battle: expensive litigation and attorney fees, loss of privacy through discovery motions by defendants in a lawsuit, possible damage to reputation as the case goes public (and perhaps gets discussed by often I'll-informed antagonists on message boards such as this one, as happened with Officer Moutsos last year), possible impact on future employment, risk weighed against the likelihood of prevailing at trial, etc. Then, I imagine, you wonder whether this is a hill worth dying on or whether you have the stomach for what is to come. 

Edited June 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd