Joseph Smith's Polyandry?

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It doesn't occur to her that other people have read the primary sources and reached their own conclusions, or that they have read through her material and found it unpersuasive. Rather than try to persuade others that she's right, she simply dismisses them as being biased in favor of "the majority opinions." 

I can't even follow what that would mean anyway.  So if Joseph didn't have sex with most of his wives does that mean he gains in valor?  "He was quite a gentleman, because although he married some 30 women he rarely consummated those marriages".  What?  Why does that even matter?  And why try to maintain such an argument if the very deed of having sex is something we simply won't be able to know ourselves, assuming we weren't sitting there watching the activity in our pre-mortal lives?

[ALarson]

58 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

So, to summarize:

1. You believe that, if no child was born to a specific union, there was no sexual component.

2. Emily Partridge wasn't being entirely truthful when she said she had slept with Joseph, been in bed with him, roomed with him, and had carnal intercourse.

3. Malissa Lott was being "general" when she said she had roomed and cohabited with Joseph as his wife "in very deed" and when she explained why she hadn't borne children to Joseph: "Through no fault of either of us, lack of proper conditions on my part probably, or it might be in the wisdom of the Almighty that we should have none."

4. Louisa Beaman's lack of conception means she was not intimate with Joseph but spent the night in bed with him doing something else. This of course assumes that the alternative is that she and Joseph were regularly intimate (an assumption I don't think anyone has made and that the historical record doesn't support).

5. Emma didn't conceive immediately upon marrying Joseph Smith, so they must not have had sex until after they had been married for several months. 

Yes, indeed, your standards are "more restrictive." Yikes.

Yikes is right 

[kllindley]

23 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It's not "may" when she uses words such as "likely wasn't consummated." ¡Dame un descanso, por favor!

Is the appropriate phrase CFR?  I did a search and the only use of "likely wasn't consummated" was yours.  

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So if Joseph didn't have sex with most of his wives does that mean he gains in valor?  "He was quite a gentleman, because although he married some 30 women he rarely consummated those marriages".  What?  Why does that even matter?  And why try to maintain such an argument if the very deed of having sex is something we simply won't be able to know ourselves, assuming we weren't sitting there watching the activity in our pre-mortal lives?

I think it means that maybe there is a way that Joseph didn't lie and go behind Emma's back.  Why maintain such an argument.  Because many people claim that there is indeed definitive historical proof that Joseph was child molester and adulterer.  

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

It bothers me. I couldn’t tell you why exactly, but not enough to think through it. I think it also bothers people because of the idea that he married some young women. Strangely that bothers me less because my grandma and aunt were 15 and 14 (not LDS or LDS related), but I understand why it would bother others. 

 

I think a number of people are bothered by it because they believe Joseph would have to be lying in several of the things he said about polygamy if the sealings were mainly full marriages.  Others it is primarily the youth of some of the women (and pointing out that older women were involved as well only makes it more complicated, it doesn't diminish their issues).

[jkwilliams]

10 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Is the appropriate phrase CFR?  I did a search and the only use of "likely wasn't consummated" was yours.  

Just quoting her blog:

Quote

 

Despite Joseph and Louisa spending their wedding night under the same roof, Joseph Bates Noble was unable to testify that he’d actually seen the couple get in bed together. 22Louisa would not become pregnant during Joseph’s lifetime. By contrast, Louisa would bear five children in five years to Brigham Young (including two sets of twins) between their marriage in September 1844 and Louisa’s death of breast cancer on May 15, 1850. 23

Even though the marriage between Joseph Smith and Louisa Beaman likely remained unconsummated, Louisa Beaman remained true to the covenant between Joseph and herself until death. 

 

http://www.millennialstar.org/the-reluctant-virgins/

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I think it means that maybe there is a way that Joseph didn't lie and go behind Emma's back. 

This took place whether or not he was consummating the marriages.  

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I think it means that maybe there is a way that Joseph didn't lie and go behind Emma's back.  

Well then we're just making some assumptions.  Fine by me, but then say it's mostly based on assumption because it sounds better if Joseph didn't lie to Emma. 

8 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Why maintain such an argument.  Because many people claim that there is indeed definitive historical proof that Joseph was child molester and adulterer.  

Assuming he didn't have sex with his wives except on rare occassions is not addressing that accusation. 

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I think it means that maybe there is a way that Joseph didn't lie and go behind Emma's back.  Why maintain such an argument.  Because many people claim that there is indeed definitive historical proof that Joseph was child molester and adulterer.  

No one here is talking about child molestation or adultery (seriously, where are you getting that?). But the historical record is clear that Joseph did marry women without Emma's knowledge and consent, which is a separate issue from consummation.

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Just quoting her blog:

Quote

 

Despite Joseph and Louisa spending their wedding night under the same roof, Joseph Bates Noble was unable to testify that he’d actually seen the couple get in bed together. 22Louisa would not become pregnant during Joseph’s lifetime. By contrast, Louisa would bear five children in five years to Brigham Young (including two sets of twins) between their marriage in September 1844 and Louisa’s death of breast cancer on May 15, 1850. 23

Even though the marriage between Joseph Smith and Louisa Beaman likely remained unconsummated, Louisa Beaman remained true to the covenant between Joseph and herself until death. 

So, Joseph and Louisa spent their wedding night in a bedroom together, but their marriage "likely remained unconsummated"?    They must have just been passing the meat platter in bed too, I guess...right?   

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ALarson said:

So, Joseph and Louisa spent their wedding night in a bedroom together, but their marriage "likely remained unconsummated"?    They must have just been passing the meat platter in bed too, I guess...right?   

Well, that's just it. How does one go from "no one actually saw them get into bed together" to "the marriage likely remained unconsummated"? It gets worse because, later in her series, she asserts that Louisa was unhappy that her marriage had not been consummated. 

[kllindley]

38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is just not true and insults these women AND Joseph thoroughly.

 

I don't think there is adequate evidence to draw this line in the sand.  Additionally, despite you claiming that this statement is not true (rather than just highly unlikely and unnecessary) I do not see how it leads to any insult.  Is it an insult to say that some women may have been victimized? 

 

49 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

Hi kllindley,

If this is what you intended to write, I am heartened: "I don't see anywhere where her current theory (as put forward in her book) directly contradicts the available historical evidence."

I'm mainly trying to point out that there was a nasty sexual heresy in Nauvoo from 1841-1842 that explains why Joseph reached out to so very many women and subsequent secrecy was informed by trying to prevent the sexual heresy from gaining a foothold in Mormon society, as well as protecting the reputations of those who had repented. In light of the sexual heresy, I propose that Joseph's covenants with women other than Emma were rarely consummated (though they might have been had Joseph not been killed).

Given that Joseph had reached out to covenant with so very many individuals, combined with the threats Brigham was left to deal with, plural marriage became much more prevalent that is appropriate under normal circumstances. This eventually made it difficult to end plural marriage. It took the removal of three junior apostles to halt the immediate internal threat, but John and Lorin Woolley took it upon themselves to continue the practice in the face of being excommunicated from the Church.

Given that you say "I don't personally believe her explanation to be correct," could you clarify which of the phrases or sentences in the above concise summary you find to be wrong?

Thanks!

I don't think that the present sexual heresy is necessarily the only or best explanation for Joseph's actions.  It may have in fact been a factor.  I don't think the evidence is strong enough to definitively conclude that any of the women Joseph married had need of repenting or having their reputations protected.  I also don't believe that the only or best explanation for Polygamy becoming as prevalent as it was in Utah is that Brigham was stuck between Joseph's actions and the external threats. 

This is not to say that I have any real reason to not believe that these explanations could not be true.  Ultimately, I tend to stick with the narrative in the LDS.org Essays simply because I am more comfortable appealing to authority now that the "official" version is more harmonious to historical evidence. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Correct.
Joseph had no more loyal follower than Brigham. 
If by expanded you mean systemized and made more widespread of course he did that.  Church population grew, so did the application of Joseph's teachings by Brigham.
If by expanded you mean took doctrines in directions Joseph never would have I completely disagree.  Brigham understood Joseph's teachings and was unfalteringly loyal to maintaining them.

Thus the Priesthood Ban, Blood Atonement, and Adam-God issues were unfalteringly what Joseph would have taught.  Joseph would have taught that monogamy was a vile perversion of the sacred institution of celestial marriage?  I'm not arguing that Brigham did in fact expand the practice of plural marriage beyond what Joseph intended.  However, to present as an argument against that idea the claim that Brigham never took doctrines in a different direction. . . seems like a weak argument.  

[Calm]

Problems with quoting...

PROF, gave you point for the stats on pregnancies, that was great work...but the understanding Joseph on polyandry or not...don't really think anyone should be assuming they have enough info or insight to comprehend that complexity.

[Meg Stout]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It doesn't occur to her that other people have read the primary sources and reached their own conclusions, or that they have read through her material and found it unpersuasive. Rather than try to persuade others that she's right, she simply dismisses them as being biased in favor of "the majority opinions." 

Hi John,

I know others have read the primary sources and reached their own conclusions.

 

30 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It doesn't occur to her that other people have read the primary sources and reached their own conclusions, or that they have read through her material and found it unpersuasive. Rather than try to persuade others that she's right, she simply dismisses them as being biased in favor of "the majority opinions." 

Hi JLHPROF,

Can you point me to a definite paper that explores the spiritual wifery heresy and clarifies that Joseph was not the source of that heresy? Gary Bergera's paper in the Whitmer Journal seemed to indicate that the High Council testimonies had been intended to hide Joseph's polygamy.

28 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm confused what your point is if you acknowledge that Joseph rarely consummated some of the marriages.  Is that it?  Joseph didn't consummate them regularly so he's not that bad?  His wasn't the sexual heresy problem?  Is yoru larger concern about women who were married to other men sleeping with more than one man?  Joseph would be granted a pass? 

 

Hi stemelbow,

As I consider the data, I find reasons to suspect Joseph rarely consummated his covenants with women other than Emma Hale, and the times that he did apparently consummate the marriages were when the woman involved in the covenant was not married to someone else and at times when Emma approved.

I don't believe Joseph was the source of the sexual heresy, though things Joseph did or said would lead the seducers to claim in the fall of 1841 that Joseph did teach spiritual wifery, a claim William Smith and others would use to coerce women to participate in illicit intercourse.

With the exception of Esther Dutcher [Smith], the women who were married to faithful Mormon men simply failed to conceive children during the duration of their simultaneous covenant with Joseph. In every case where we have been able to evaluate the claim that Joseph produced the children born to married women, the DNA proves that Joseph Smith was not the biological father.  While some persist in arguing that Joseph had sex with married women, the data does not support that this occurred. Proponents of a Joseph who engaged in polyandrous relations point out that lack of children doesn't prove lack of sex. Folks like me point out that lack of children is also consistent with the possibility that there was not polyandrous sex in Joseph's covenants with married women. The DNA for Joseph Albert Smith (Esther Dutcher's 1844 son) has not been evaluated. However in the case of Esther Dutcher [Smith], it appears that she had been propositioned by the heretical seducers in the spring of 1842.

I'm not sure what you mean "Joseph would be granted a pass." Joseph had been commanded to restore the principle that plural marriage was permissible. He did this. Some opine that Joseph engaged in sexual relations with young teens (Helen Mar, Nancy Winchester) and married women (Sylvia Lyons, Presendia Buell, Zina Huntington, Mary Elizabeth Lightner). However the only support for such aberrant sexual relations is the inference that all marriages were consummated and in some cases verbal statements that could be interpreted in several ways.

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

So, Joseph and Louisa spent their wedding night in a bedroom together, but their marriage "likely remained unconsummated"?    They must have just been passing the meat platter in bed too, I guess...right?   

I really don't know enough about what is written to make any calls on this,  but I remember reading back in college in one of my marriage and family therapy classes (and no, I can't give a reference at this point) that this happens more often than one might assume. Even today there are couples who choose not to for various reasons.  So I'm not going to make assumptions, in either direction, on Joseph and Louisa based just on that they shared a bed.

[juliann]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I can't even follow what that would mean anyway.  So if Joseph didn't have sex with most of his wives does that mean he gains in valor?  

I think that is what is going on....and it isn't just Meg. What becomes interesting to me is how a few women hold the sole key to his valor (or character.) It is a house of cards that will come tumbling down. And those that are doing this are ensuring that JS's valor will come down with it. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by juliann

[Meg Stout]

16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Well, that's just it. How does one go from "no one actually saw them get into bed together" to "the marriage likely remained unconsummated"? It gets worse because, later in her series, she asserts that Louisa was unhappy that her marriage had not been consummated. 

That was something I tossed off in my online series a few years ago. Obviously I have no way of knowing whether or not Louisa was unhappy to be in a covenant relationship that had to remain unacknolwedged and did not produce a child during Joseph's lifetime. I think when I wrote that I was living with my daughter who had failed to conceive for several years and was very vocal about how unhappy that made her feel. Now my daughter and her husband are enjoying the joys of living with a newborn child, complete with screaming and vomiting and diapers.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

Hi John,

I know others have read the primary sources and reached their own conclusions.

Then why do you insult people for being "neurologically typical, which means you are more strongly influenced by the prevailing theories expressed by your peers than by data" or assume that people are offended because of some ancestor they think you're insulting? My problem with your stuff is that it is selective with sources and takes unfounded leaps from one assumption to the next, as long as it fits the narrative. That most people here see that does not mean they are being unfair or attacking you personally.

[Gray]

33 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Just quoting her blog:

http://www.millennialstar.org/the-reluctant-virgins/

That's quite the standard of evidence. I promise you that no witness will ever testify of having seen me in bed with anyone. Which is evidence, apparently, that my marriage remains unconsummated. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

Except that the prevailing narrative is that Joseph was implementing a system specifically for the purpose of producing children. 

Evidence for this narrative and that it is the prevailing one, please.

[Meg Stout]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

That's quite the standard of evidence. I promise you that no witness will ever testify of having seen me in bed with anyone. Which is evidence, apparently, that my marriage remains unconsummated. 

Ah, but do you have children?

I'm pretty sure no third party has witnessed any intimate interaction between me and my husbands (married serially, not concurrently), and I'm sure my children would prefer to imagine that they were produced by immaculate conception. But I have children.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Meg Stout

[jkwilliams]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think that is what is going on....and it isn't just Meg. What becomes interesting to me is how a few women hold the sole key to his valor (or character.) It is a house of cards that will come tumbling down. And those that are doing this are assuring that JS's valor will come down with it. 

Yep. Whether we like it or not, we must deal with Joseph Smith as he was, not as we wish him to be. When we put someone on a pedestal like that, we are destined to be disappointed.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

Ah, but do you have children?

I'm pretty sure no third party has witnessed any intimate interaction between me and my husbands (married serially, not concurrently), and I'm sure my children would prefer to imagine that they were produced by immaculate conception. But I have children.

Again, there needs to be a compelling reason to believe that a given marriage has not been consummated; otherwise, the default is to accept that most marriages are consummated. You have not given any compelling reason to believe Joseph's marriages were not consummated. I've asked you several times to provide that reason, but it has been in vain. 

[kllindley]

24 minutes ago, ALarson said:

This took place whether or not he was consummating the marriages.  

Admittedly.  And I do believe that consummation matters at least a little bit.  I can understand Joseph justifying not telling her yet as long as he didn't intend (at that time) on consummating the relationship.  That is still a sin in my eyes, but one I can live with more easily than having sex behind her back.   

24 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well then we're just making some assumptions.  Fine by me, but then say it's mostly based on assumption because it sounds better if Joseph didn't lie to Emma. 

Assuming he didn't have sex with his wives except on rare occassions is not addressing that accusation. 

Exactly!  That is why I am so confused.  Meg looks at the data and presents a possible explanation, one that does not contradict historical fact.  And people come unglued.  The sarcasm, eye-rolling emojis, and attacks on her character and intelligence. 

And Exactly!  That is why Meg is so quick to admit that it is very possible that he did have sex.  The assumption that he didn't have sex with his plural wives is not necessary to her overall explanation.  In order to accept that Joseph "may" not have had sex with a 14 year old or before Emma knew about things we at least have to accept that some of the plural marriages were not consummated immediately.  Nothing more.  

 

19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

No one here is talking about child molestation or adultery (seriously, where are you getting that?). But the historical record is clear that Joseph did marry women without Emma's knowledge and consent, which is a separate issue from consummation.

I very clearly did not say anyone on this thread was talking about child molestation or adultery.  That is disingenuous.  I answered why anyone would want to believe Meg's explanation.  The answer I gave is that there are many people who do claim those things.  And regarding Emma's knowledge and consent, I do believe that consummation matters at least a little bit.  I can understand Joseph justifying not telling her as long as he didn't intend (at that time) on consummating the relationship.  That is still a sin in my eyes, but one I can live with more easily than having sex behind her back.   

[Jeanne]

35 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Well, that's just it. How does one go from "no one actually saw them get into bed together" to "the marriage likely remained unconsummated"? It gets worse because, later in her series, she asserts that Louisa was unhappy that her marriage had not been consummated. 

How many people actually hang around to watch people in bed together...