Faith and Knowledge

[UtahTexan]

Funny....when I was in the Army, even the most ardent atheist was praying to God when things got really bad........I wonder why that is?

[why me]

For lds I think that faith is rather complicated and yet, rather simple. For example: it does take faith that the 11 witnesses actually experienced what they claimed. And yet, those who did give a death bed testimony did so knowing that they would soon meet their maker. Does this prove that they experienced what they experienced or does it need faith to believe in them? Then, there is the book of mormon. Well, the book is a reality. Does it take faith that the book is what it claims to be or is it a fact? We certainly have testimony of how it was translated: curtain, head in a hat...we know that emma felt the plates under a thin cloth etc. And we know that she and joseph were running around trying to protect them from thieves. Does it take faith to believe in this or is it a fact? And we have mary whitmer's testimony that she also saw the plates and after such an experience, she never denied what she claimed even though she couuld have later in her life. So, what to make of faith if one is a mormon? We certainly have a lot of facts to consider.

[mfbukowski]

54 minutes ago, why me said:

For lds I think that faith is rather complicated and yet, rather simple. For example: it does take faith that the 11 witnesses actually experienced what they claimed. And yet, those who did give a death bed testimony did so knowing that they would soon meet their maker. Does this prove that they experienced what they experienced or does it need faith to believe in them? Then, there is the book of mormon. Well, the book is a reality. Does it take faith that the book is what it claims to be or is it a fact? We certainly have testimony of how it was translated: curtain, head in a hat...we know that emma felt the plates under a thin cloth etc. And we know that she and joseph were running around trying to protect them from thieves. Does it take faith to believe in this or is it a fact? And we have mary whitmer's testimony that she also saw the plates and after such an experience, she never denied what she claimed even though she couuld have later in her life. So, what to make of faith if one is a mormon? We certainly have a lot of facts to consider.

An interesting statement.

Is the existence of God provable by facts?  By science, in essence?

Seriously.  Think about it.

If the existence of God cannot be proven by facts, neither can facts disprove his existence or ANYTHING ABOUT HIM NOR HIS WORKINGS

 

Edited May 29, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Teancum]

18 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

An interesting statement.

Is the existence of God provable by facts?  By science, in essence?

Seriously.  Think about it.

If the existence of God cannot be proven by facts, neither can facts disprove his existence or ANYTHING ABOUT HIM NOR HIS WORKINGS

 

And therein is the problem.

[Jeanne]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

An interesting statement.

Is the existence of God provable by facts?  By science, in essence?

Seriously.  Think about it.

If the existence of God cannot be proven by facts, neither can facts disprove his existence or ANYTHING ABOUT HIM NOR HIS WORKINGS

 

What is interesting is in Why Me's post, he says "we know" a lot.  We don't know..if we did..what would necessitate faith?

[mfbukowski]

40 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And therein is the problem.

It's no problem at all.

Belief in God is  is a belief that gives us meaning in life. Science goes out of its way to not give anything meaning. The very idea of a “fact” intentionally strips information of its significance and importance, in order to look at the information impartially. That is what  scientific thinking is good at.

 

But when we ask why the information is important, or what significant it has, or what its purpose is,  we are in a different realm.

 

They are two different conversations, two different points of view, and two different contexts.

 

One is about how things work, the other is about why things are important, and what the purpose of things are, or should be.

 

That's the problem with intelligent design. Intelligent design tries to speak about purpose, from a scientific perspective. That cannot be done, because that is not the sphere of science.

 

Everyone has tacit assumptions about what is good what is bad,  what is valuable and what is not, whether or not I should be a Democrat or Republican or a Communist, whether abortion is right or wrong, whom to marry,  or any host of other topics for which science is useless.

 

Religious belief gives us a way of understanding some other questions about life that science cannot answer,  nor should it attempt to answer.

 

Science literally cannot answer any questions about what is important because importance is subjective and cannot be defined.

 

Religious belief addresses some of those topics.

 

Religious questions are in the subjective sphere, scientific questions are about what is objective. All truth works in its sphere.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 5/27/2016 at 7:54 PM, Mystery Meat said:

I have seen healings first hand. Actual miracles that science cannot explain

Actual miracles as what? Did you witness someone's faith healed an amputee? Did you witness someone move mountains in the name of the Lord? The types of miracles you talking about happen everyday to everyone including to me. I'm sure my miracles are no less miracles than mine...difference is I don't attribute them to a Deity I worship. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Actual miracles as what? Did you witness someone's faith healed an amputee? Did you witness someone move mountains in the name of the Lord? The types of miracles you talking about happen everyday to everyone including to me. I'm sure my miracles are no less miracles than mine...difference is I don't attribute them to a Deity I worship. 

So what?  He even loves you, as unimaginable as that is.  

[TheSkepticChristian]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's no problem at all.

Belief in God is  is a belief that gives us

1. Santa gives Christmas meaning. Is that a good point?

2. Your argument makes some sense only if you are trying to defend pascals wager.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Religious belief gives us a way of understanding some other questions about life that science cannot answer,  nor should it attempt to answer.

However, you are assuming that such questions are meaningful. Perhaps we (humans) are just star dust in a meaningless universe. Perhaps there is no such thing as purpose. We don't  know that. I hope not. 

[Atheist Mormon]

52 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So what?  He even loves you, as unimaginable as that is.  

Sorry bukowski but that's not happening. I wish there was a way to show some respect for this "love of God"....But how can I since I've never seen or felt "God"?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

1. Santa gives Christmas meaning. Is that a good point?

2. Your argument makes some sense only if you are trying to defend pascals wager.

However, you are assuming that such questions are meaningful. Perhaps we (humans) are just star dust in a meaningless universe. Perhaps there is no such thing as purpose. We don't  know that. I hope not. 

Why do you hope not?

That itself is a contradiction.  The question is unanswerable- so believe what you like.  It makes absolutely no sense wasting time worrying about a meaningless world while you tacitly create meaning every moment.  You get up and go to work or school. Why?  Because it gives your life meaning

You find a boyfriend /girlfriend.  Why?  You are a meaningless speck of dust in your own mind.  You could decide to be a god in embryo and you would be no closer to "correct"

You could listen to the whispers of the spirit which is waiting to answer you, but you still want evidence for what cannot even HAVE evidence.

You appear to not understand that every decision you make about what is important in your life is based completely on subjectivity. You can live your life knowing that or stay in illusion, it is your choice

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Sorry bukowski but that's not happening. I wish there was a way to show some respect for this "love of God"....But how can I since I've never seen or felt "God"?

That's ok, you will eventually.

[Bernard Gui]

On May 28, 2016 at 0:18 PM, mfbukowski said:

I have questions for Occam's Razor

Should I marry Suzi?

Should I join the Mormons or save the whales?  Or some other group?  Which one, or if none, why?

What beliefs will make me more productive?

Should I donate to the Communist Party or the NRA?

Is it important if I go to grandma's for thanksgiving or to my brother's house?

Can I do something about global warming?

Will I be a spirit after I die?

What is the purpose of life?  Does it even have a purpose?  How could I know?

The next time you see Occam would you please ask his razor these questions?

While you are at it, ask him how he knows his razor is always right?

Why is a frog when it spins?
Which is shorter - to Chicago or by plane?

Do you walk to work or take your lunch?

Edited May 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

However, you are assuming that such questions are meaningful. Perhaps we (humans) are just star dust in a meaningless universe. Perhaps there is no such thing as purpose. We don't  know that. I hope not. 

What is your purpose in arguing against the existence of God?

[Bernard Gui]

34 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That's ok, you will eventually.

And what's even more astounding is that God will then say, "That's ok. My grace is sufficient for you, too."

Edited May 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

Sorry, pointless

God's not done with me yet.  I am only half baked

Edited May 30, 2016 by mfbukowski

[TheSkepticChristian]

53 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Why do you hope not?

I hope we are not just star dust in a meaningless universe, we don't know that. 

 

53 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 It makes absolutely no sense wasting time worrying about a meaningless world while you tacitly create meaning every moment.  You get up and go to work or school. Why?  Because it gives your life meaning

Again, I don't know if our world is meaningless, I am agnostic.

I do enjoy life, but I also worry about a lot of stuff. For example, 

U.S. sees first case of bacteria resistant to last-resort antibiotic

Or Global Warming, I worry about Global Warming. 

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What is your purpose in arguing against the existence of God?

No I am not! when did I say he doesn't exists? mfbukowski is making assumptions, I never said his assumptions are wrong,

I don't know. 

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[mfbukowski]

Never mind.

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Atheist Mormon]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's ok, you will eventually.

Thanks bukowski, that really gives me lots of comfort, since I'm already couple yrs over 60......

[JLHPROF]

51 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Thanks bukowski, that really gives me lots of comfort, since I'm already couple yrs over 60......

No such thing as a dead atheist, Mormon or otherwise.

Edited May 30, 2016 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Thanks bukowski, that really gives me lots of comfort, since I'm already couple yrs over 60......

When you wake up on the other side, you will know.

[why me]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

An interesting statement.

Is the existence of God provable by facts?  By science, in essence?

Seriously.  Think about it.

If the existence of God cannot be proven by facts, neither can facts disprove his existence or ANYTHING ABOUT HIM NOR HIS WORKINGS

 

I  think that we have a difference. We have human beings, who once lived just a couple of hundred years ago, claiming that they saw angels and saw the plates. And we have people who commented on how the plates were transcribed. And we have their testimonies in the book of mormon. Do we believe them? Could they have lied on their deathbed to their family and friends? And does this comfirm the existence of god? For example, if the witnesses were correct in what they saw or felt with their hands, and if oliver experienced the visitation of angels when he also received the priesthood, does this confirm the existence of god?

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, why me said:

I  think that we have a difference. We have human beings, who once lived just a couple of hundred years ago, claiming that they saw angels and saw the plates. And we have people who commented on how the plates were transcribed. And we have their testimonies in the book of mormon. Do we believe them? Could they have lied on their deathbed to their family and friends? And does this comfirm the existence of god? For example, if the witnesses were correct in what they saw or felt with their hands, and if oliver experienced the visitation of angels when he also received the priesthood, does this confirm the existence of god?

Look, I am a faithful member of the church and I BELIEVE and I have a testimony that yes there  were plates and angels and all of the things you mention.  I can say without blinking an eye that "I know the church is true"

But I also can see it from the pov of the world.  I know that all this can be justified purely as a rational exercise and I also post from that paradigm as well.

Pragmatic philosophy looks at all this from a PURELY rational point of view, discounting the existence of the spirit, and even the existence of God.  Here we are speaking to those who do NOT believe and so I am in my philosopher persona 

Believing mfb knows that God can do anything he wants.  Bertrand Russel himself said that he cannot prove that the world didn't blink into existence 5 minutes ago and that we are not essentially "brains in a vat".  My whole point is that there is a rational paradigm - a point of view in seeing this that is totally rational and I am trying to convince these people to at LEAST be able to see that.

So in my desire to see it both ways, I say that we do see these things subjectively and that is indisputable.

That religion gives us meaning in our lives is indisputable

That we make choices about what gives us meaning in our lives is indisputable

That even atheists find causes - like save the whales or ecology or whatever- as a different way of creating meaning in their lives is indisputable.  We want our lives to have had some impact on the world and to leave a "legacy" of some kind, be it family and kids. those we have served, the Trump tower, or dying for our nation, which we are thinking about this weekend especially.

My attempt is only to communicate with these folks to let them know that we are not all that different from them.

What previous ages did not have was the philosophy to enable them to "look over the fence" and see it from both sides and know that the barrier between us is not all that great.

I hope that that would lead to helping them jump the wall

[mfbukowski]

My heart tells me one view, my mind tells me another.  Both are completely compatible, so I am covered either way.  Took me 50 years to pull it off, but I am there finally

[Atheist Mormon]

On 5/29/2016 at 5:07 PM, mfbukowski said:

If the existence of God cannot be proven by facts, neither can facts disprove his existence or ANYTHING ABOUT HIM NOR HIS WORKINGS

True, This is why it doesn't work....