TheSkepticChristian Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: So, Elder Uchtdorf has endorsed your expertise? You must be an expert, then. Now you are changing the subject. You first told me that I need a degree to be an expert. 3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: If you have no idea about God or think he is an extraterrestrial (whatever that is), then how can you be an expert I am an expert on the Gospel. I am a Mormon and I know it well. A lot of Mormons agree that God is an extraterrestrial. I said i know the gospel, i didnt say that i know its true. 7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Then you should have specified rather than just through up some silly video as if it were scientific and psychological proof of your position. Look, i did not intend to prove anything. I did link to a serious book, but you just want to focus on that video with ad hominem arguments. Define God.
Bernard Gui Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 25 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: So y did u ignore what i just said? Sometimes it's difficult to understand what you are saying. Please explain.
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 On 5/26/2016 at 2:41 PM, TheSkepticChristian said: True, but science and psychology can replicate religious experiences. The power of suggestion, confirmation bias, the Improbability principle, selection bias, statistics, and patternicity can explain religious experiences. I am not saying that all religious experiences can be explained, but some can. The Improbability Principle: Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events Happen Every Day https://www.amazon.es/Improbability-Principle-Coincidences-Miracles-Events/dp/0374175349
Bernard Gui Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Now you are changing the subject. You first told me that I need a degree to be an expert. I am an expert on the Gospel. I am a Mormon and I know it well. A lot of Mormons agree that God is an extraterrestrial. I said i know the gospel, i didnt say that i know its true. Look, i did not intend to prove anything. I did link to a serious book, but you just want to focus on that video with ad hominem arguments. Define God. No, you changed the subject. I provided the usual definition of an expert and you countered saying that I contradicted President Uchtdorf. Since he wants us to become experts, you appear to be claiming his endorsement. I'm sorry, but I have seen nothing here that justifies your claim to expertise. Perhaps you can explain what you mean by extraterrestrial? Do you mean that God does not reside on earth? Jesus did, and he is God. Then you don't know the gospel. There is nothing ad hominem about pointing out the duplicity of the video, the credentials of the host, and the fact that it is not scientific when you claimed it was. Why do you want me to define God? Who cares? Edited June 5, 2016 by Bernard Gui 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: No, you changed the subject. I provided the usual definition of an expert I quoted Elder uchtdorf to show that he does not agree with your definition. I am done with you, you are wasting my time! Go read some books, but not just by apologists. I never said that video was scientific, watching videos is not scientific research! Enough now Edited June 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Bernard Gui Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I quoted Elder uchtdorf to show that he does not agree with your definition. I am done with you, you are wasting my time! Go read some books, but not just by apologists. I never said that video was scientific, watching videos is not scientific research! Enough now Thank heaven! Do you seriously believe that quote shows he does not agree with the real definition of an expert? Really? But before you go, why do you insist that I define God? Excellent rejoinder! Not so fast.... This is your statement that immediately preceded your link to the video: Quote True, but science and psychology can replicate religious experiences. The power of suggestion, confirmation bias, the Improbability principle, selection bias, statistics, and patternicity can explain religious experiences. I am not saying that all religious experiences can be explained, but some can. Perhaps you should think through some of the things you say before you put them out for public consumption. Edited June 5, 2016 by Bernard Gui 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Thank heaven! But before you go, why do you insist that I define God? I believe in two different Gods. 1. Alien God, his existence is highly probable. 2. The God of the physicists, the theory of everything. His existence is also likely. I am agnostic about 1. A deistic God that caused our universe. An intelligence that does not intervene in our universe. 2. A theistic God that listens to our prayers. Now we need to know which God are you talking about? 37 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Oh, really? This is your statement that immediately preceded your link to the v I was talking about science, not that video. I was talking about the topics that I mentioned, its funny that you never say a word about those topics. Again, I never said that video was scientific! That video was simply for entertainment! Its also a useful video, but you only attack it with adhominem arguments. I still doubt you watched thd entire video. Edited June 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Do you seriously believe that quote shows he does not agree with the real definition of an expert? Really Listen. The apostle told us to become experts in the gospel, he did not say to get a degree in the gospel. You basically said I needed a degree for that. Read your own words again. More proof that it is impossible to have a conversation with you. Edited June 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Bernard Gui Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 8 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Listen. The apostle told us to become experts in the gospel, he did not say to get a degree in the gospel. You basically said I needed a degree for that. Read your own words again. More proof that it is impossible to have a conversation with you. No, you need to read my words more carefully. To qualify as an expert there must be some verifiable proof other than your own claim that you are an expert at whatever. President Uchtdorf telling you to become an expert does not qualify as evidence that you are in fact an expert. I said, Quote Experts usually have some sort of credential, certification, pedigree, recognized status, extensive experience over a long time, or some other proof other than a simple self-congratulatory boast. We are having a conversation, so it is not impossible.
Bernard Gui Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I believe in two different Gods. 1. Alien God, his existence is highly probable. 2. The God of the physicists, the theory of everything. His existence is also likely. I am agnostic about 1. A deistic God that caused our universe. An intelligence that does not intervene in our universe. 2. A theistic God that listens to our prayers. Now we need to know which God are you talking about? I was talking about science, not that video. I was talking about the topics that I mentioned, its funny that you never say a word about those topics. Again, I never said that video was scientific! That video was simply for entertainment! Its also a useful video, but you only attack it with adhominem arguments. I still doubt you watched thd entire video. I watched the whole video. Not sure why you don't believe it. That's why I was able to point out its many flaws with specific examples.... to which you have not responded. You have never acknowledged it as entertainment until this post. I watched expecting it to buttress your claims about science and psychology because that is precisely how you presented it. It was immediately obvious that it was cheap pop entertainment posing as serious dialogue. I'm glad you have a belief in God, however you perceive Him. I am sure your faith will serve you well and bring you happiness in your life. Edited June 5, 2016 by Bernard Gui 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: No, you need to read my words more carefully. To qualify as an expert there must be some verifiable proof other than your own claim that you are an expert at whatever. President Uchtdorf telling you to become an expert does not qualify as evidence that you are in fact an expert. And i never said his words proved that I am an expert, all I am saying is that I don't need credentials to be an expert in the gospel. You just simply are going to have to take my word that I am an expert in the Gospel, I am not going to give you a summery of preach my gospel or gospel principles manuals, I read them both. 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: I watched the whole video. Not sure why you don't believe it. That's why I was able to point out its many flaws with specific examples Which flaws? That they never verifief the women was not hurt? That Derren is not a scientist? Why not critique his examples of patternicity? Why not critique the book I presented? 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: You have never acknowledged it as entertainment until this post. Not true, I said On 6/3/2016 at 8:42 AM, TheSkepticChristian said: PS I think the volunteers are in fact just actors, but it is true that humans do selection bias
JLHPROF Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: all I am saying is that I don't need credentials to be an expert in the gospel. You just simply are going to have to take my word that I am an expert in the Gospel 1
mfbukowski Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 On 6/4/2016 at 11:40 PM, Bernard Gui said: Why do you want me to define God? Who cares? I don't know what his point is with this either- the point is BELIEF in a being you cannot see. It's all the same if it's the flying spaghetti monster or the Trinity, or our view of God. If you notice the title of the thread, this is about FAITH in something for which we have no objective evidence. His repeated call for a definition of God is a red herring.
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 On 6/6/2016 at 10:10 AM, mfbukowski said: I don't know what his point is with this either- the point is BELIEF in a being you cannot see. Well, Stephen Hawking is looking for God. Read about the Breakthrough Listen Project.
mfbukowski Posted June 7, 2016 Posted June 7, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Well, Stephen Hawking is looking for God. Read about the Breakthrough Listen Project. If that is God to you, good for you. Take that ball and run with it. I could take on that paradigm if I wanted to, but it is not consistent with my other beliefs. God is an alien works pretty well for LDS who are scientifically oriented I suppose. We receive our "revelations" through some kind of ESP etc. The legends of the bible are remnants of ancient wisdom, as adjusted through ESP or "intuition", they are words of wisdom that we have found work, in making civilization work, and that is essentially what Alma is teaching. It doesn't work for me but I can see that it could work well for others. You should look into Mormon Transhumanism. I know many highly intelligent people in this movement. http://transfigurism.org/
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: You should look into Mormon Transhumanism. I know many highly intelligent people in this movement. So what is a better hope, Theism or Cryonics?
mfbukowski Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) 48 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: So what is a better hope, Theism or Cryonics? Clearly the flying spaghetti monster Again, if you had even looked at what I said, you would understand that those two alternatives are compatible to transhumanists, and should be to you also as a space alien/god guy Edited June 8, 2016 by mfbukowski 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 8, 2016 Posted June 8, 2016 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Clearly the flying spaghetti monster Again, if you had even looked at what I said, you would understand that those two alternatives are compatible to transhumanists, and should be to you also as a space alien/god guy True, but I don't think our church would feel good about cryonics. You are not reading what I am saying, I didn't say you can't do both, I am simply asking What is a better pascals wager Theism or Cryonics?
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 9, 2016 Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) On 6/7/2016 at 10:48 AM, mfbukowski said: God is an alien works pretty well for LDS who are scientifically oriented I suppose. As an Agnostic I am also open to the possibility that an all powerful Intelligence caused the Big Bang and even cares about us. Edited June 9, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Ahab Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 On 6/8/2016 at 7:32 AM, TheSkepticChristian said: What is a better pascals wager Theism or Cryonics? Why not a combo of the best of those 2? ...also combining every other good idea there is.
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 11, 2016 Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) On 6/6/2016 at 8:10 AM, mfbukowski said: , this is about FAITH in something for which we have no objective evidence. According to some reports Michio Kaku found evidence for God. http://www.catholic.org/news/technology/story.php?id=69335 Quote Without getting into the physics, Kaku concludes that we live in a Matrix-style universe, created by an intelligence. "I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence", he said. "Believe me, everything that we call chance today won't make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exists in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance." So does this mean Kaku now believes in God? Yes and no. Nowhere does he endorse an particular religious philosophy. Instead, he may be referring to Spinosa's God, a sort of deification of the laws of the universe themselves. Einstein came to a similar conclusion. Edited June 11, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
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