Faith and Knowledge

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

True, This is why it doesn't work....

Then atheism doesn't work for the same reason.

You find making money to be a major purpose of your life.  THAT is your religion.  THAT is what justifies your existence.  Perhaps it is taking good care of your family.  Perhaps it is a bigger car and another property

What is it?  What good have you been on this planet to anybody?  What do you want to leave behind?  What is important in your life?  Family?  Wealth?  More toys?

Be honest.

Prove those beliefs are "true"

Why, for example would you waste your resources on your family?  Let them get their own.

Edited May 31, 2016 by mfbukowski

[TheSkepticChristian]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You find making money to be a major purpose of your life.  THAT is your religion.  THAT is what justifies your existence. .

 

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Prove those beliefs are "true"

perhaps he doesn't believe that "purpose" exists. His fellow atheist Richard Dawkins stated, "In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference"

Perhaps he believes that humans invented purpose, perhaps he believes that purpose is just an illusion. Perhaps he also believes that humans invented gods.

Perhaps he believes the Sun won't care about purpose when it destroys our planet.

Perhaps he believes that Santa gives Christmas some meaning.

Now you will probably say that is his religion for believing that. However, perhaps he is simply assuming that without any certainty.  Perhaps he is an Agnostic like me.

Edited May 31, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[Mystery Meat]

Agnostics are cowards who won't commit to anything because they might be wrong. 

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Agnostics are cowards who won't commit to anything because they might be wrong. 

No, I don't think so.  I don't think they are afraid of being wrong.  I think it is more a dislike for being restricted.  At least with the "agnostics" (self proclaimed) that I know.
It is not fear, but resistance to obligation.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

 

perhaps he doesn't believe that "purpose" exists. 

It doesn't exist for science. 

So why are you here if you have no purpose for being here?  Why do you eat if eating has no purpose?  Why do you go to school, study, read, or for that matter get out of bed in the morning?

Can you see how absurd it is to say that "purpose doesn't exist"?  What is the purpose of a screwdriver as opposed to a sledge hammer?  Can you use them interchangeably since neither have a "purpose"?

Scientists invent radio telescopes and sophisticated instruments for what purpose?

Why do you go to school if your life does not have purpose?

Note my blurb to the right states my purpose at being here.  You have a purpose too, you just don't know it.  I know, because you are an agnostic.

Baloney, nobody is an agnostic unless they are dead.  They all wake up and have lives filled with "purpose" or they lay down and die.

Or maybe they have died and just forgotten to lay down.  The zombie apocalypse is real and it is here

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

On May 29, 2016 at 10:13 PM, TheSkepticChristian said:

 

No I am not! when did I say he doesn't exists? mfbukowski is making assumptions, I never said his assumptions are wrong,

 

That was your response when I asked what your purpose is when you argue against the existence of God. I must be confusing you with the person who posted the Derren Brown video and all the other things that other person has posted on this issue. but that was not the point. You questioned whether anything has a purpose, so I asked what your purpose was. What is your purpose for being here on a religious discussion board? What is your purpose in challenging the beliefs of those who are here? 

 

As as for the Derren Brown video, he is not as convincing as you or he seem to think he is. For example, this neat little slight of hand buried in an incredibly stupid and unscientific experiment......

He asked a non-believer volunteer to come up and seek Satan's life-long protection by making a satanic oath of allegiance he repeated from some sort of old ritual book and then repeatedly stabbing a picture of his twin sister. Then he congratulated the man and wished him luck for the rest of his life, which got the dutiful audience laughter and applause. Then he followed up by trying to drive home his point (whatever that was) by asking the audience (the vast majority of which were atheists) which of them believed in Satan and that stabbing a picture of your sister would gain his protection? A couple of women raised their hands.

Do you not see the problem with this?

They never verified that the man's twin sister was not hurt, possessed, or killed when he stabbed her photo! She should have been there in the audience to prove the ceremony did not work. What a crock!

[TheSkepticChristian]

10 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

Agnostics are cowards who won't commit to anything because they might be wrong. 

Don't be arrogant! and stop insulting me!

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

ISo why are you here if you have no purpose for being here?  Why do you eat if eating has no purpose?  Why do you go to school, study, read, or for that matter get out of bed in the morning?

Can you see how absurd it is to say that "purpose doesn't exist"?  

I didn't say that, I am agnostic. I said that perhaps Atheist Mormon believes purpose doesn't exists.

Will the sun care about purpose when it destroys our planet? 

Why do I eat? because I have hope. 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

She should have been there in the audience to prove the ceremony did not work. What a crock!

You gotta be kidding me 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

You gotta be kidding me 

I'm just as serious as that sad video.

What is your purpose for questioning the existence of God on a religious discussion board?

About the video, this is the slight of hand I was talking about: Is there a problem with the question he asked the audience who believes in Satan and that you can gain his protection by stabbing a photo of someone you love?

Do you think he was kidding?

Is Derren Brown a scientist, a psychologist, or both?

Edited June 1, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I'm just as serious as that sad video.

What is your purpose for questioning the existence of God on a religious discussion board?

About the video, this is the slight of hand I was talking about: Is there a problem with the question he asked the audience who believes in Satan and that you can gain his protection by stabbing a photo of someone you love?

Do you think he was kidding?

Is Derren Brown a scientist, a psychologist, or both?

He's an abusive so..b after subjecting that woman to ridicule in front of that group, after gaining her trust and maliciously manipulating her emotions for entertainment.

He should go to jail as far as I'm concerned. That was absolutely horrible.

He could not be a professional in any serious discipline the way he violated all possible ethical norms.

And what is ironic is that her experience was genuine in that it really made her think about her life.  The video totally contradicts what it is trying to achieve for anyone with a brain who sees it.

He did what it took to make her have an experience which finally stripped away all her prejudices in favor of atheism and let her see another way of understanding the world.  It reminds me of the Fall- where satan thinks he won by making A&E "fall" but by so doing actually ended up fulfilling God's plan.

It's a great video which shows that spirituality is part of normal psychology, when scientism and the falsehoods of it are stripped away.  It is an alternate perspective that shows that spirituality is subjective and internal- the kingdom of heaven is within- not outside us to be proven by science!

What else would it be?   It is an altered perspective.  He achieved the altered perspective by manipulation in a dishonest way, but he achieved it, and he ends up ridiculing her for her actual experience.  She saw her life in a way she had never seen it before, regardless of what it took for her to see it that way.

I wonder how she is doing now?  It would be interesting to see if it "took", or if she fell back into her old prejudices

Edited June 1, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

He's an abusive so..b after subjecting that woman to ridicule in front of that group, after gaining her trust and maliciously manipulating her emotions for entertainment.

He should go to jail as far as I'm concerned. That was absolutely horrible.

He could not be a professional in any serious discipline the way he violated all possible ethical norms.

Brown is an entertainer... A mentalist and illusionist.

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Brown is an entertainer... A mentalist and illusionist.

And a major jerk.  She should sue the heck out of him, but I am sure there were disclaimers upon disclaimers from those videoed

[TheSkepticChristian]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I'm just as serious as that sad video.

I am not going to have a discussion with you about that video. I posted that video for other scenes just to give an example.

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What is your purpose for questioning the existence of God on a religious discussion board?

I a Mormon and a Gospel expert, I am not saying God doesn't exists. Come on!

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

  It is an alternate perspective that shows that spirituality is subjective and internal- the kingdom of heaven is within- not outside us to be proven by science!

I agree, but selection bias, confirmation bias, patternicity, hallucinations, the improbability Principle, suggestion, and false memory can explain some religious experiences.

I am not saying that all of them can be explained, some of them may be real, but there are good secular explanations.

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No, I don't think so.  I don't think they are afraid of being wrong.  I think it is more a dislike for being restricted.  At least with the "agnostics" (self proclaimed) that I know.
It is not fear, but resistance to obligation.

Agnosticism simply means "I don't know", I am an open minded agnostic that doesn't claim that know the truth.

Edited June 1, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[JLHPROF]

26 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Quote

     20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No, I don't think so.  I don't think they are afraid of being wrong.  I think it is more a dislike for being restricted.  At least with the "agnostics" (self proclaimed) that I know.
It is not fear, but resistance to obligation.

Agnosticism simply means "I don't know", I am an open minded agnostic that doesn't claim that know the truth.

I realize that.
So in the event you don't know, what is the reason for not acting on faith?  That is the question being asked here.
There are some gospel things that I claim to know, but there are a great many more that "I don't know" but I choose to act in faith.
The agnostic chooses not to act.  The question again is WHY?

Mystery Meat seemed to feel that it was out of fear.  I suggested it is out of not wanting to be obligated or restricted if you don't know for sure.
Why don't you tell us why as an agnostic you choose not to act in faith on things you don't know for sure, while the faithful person chooses to act on things they don't know for sure?
 

[Ahab]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Why don't you tell us why as an agnostic you choose not to act in faith on things you don't know for sure, while the faithful person chooses to act on things they don't know for sure?
 

Your language is muddying the waters, I think.   

"don't know for sure" ???

Why not instead say "not sure about that" ?

When someone isn't sure about what would happen if they thought or did something what good reason do you think there would be for them to do or think that particular something?

Why even "experiment" to find out what would happen, if indeed anything would actually happen if they did or thought something? 

And even if something did happen could they even be sure about what had just happened? 

What if they did or thought something, just as an experiment to find out what would happen,  and they were sure that nothing happened even though something did happen and they just didn't realize what had happened? 

Do you think there would be any way to find out for sure what had really happened if 2 people were sure they got different results from the same experiment? 

Not everybody notices or pays attention to the same things when having the same or similar experiences, so powers and magnitudes of perception play a key role in seeing and noticing things that happen,  much less being sure about things that happen.

But still, if anyone is ever going to find out for sure what really happens when they do or think something, then the experiment and experience of doing or thinking that something has to be part of the scientific method of discovery.  Even if there is not any consensus,  for sure, about what really happened. 

[JLHPROF]

35 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Your language is muddying the waters, I think.   

Really?  I bow to the king of muddy water. 

My question is a basic one as to the different approaches taken to the unknown by the faithful vs the agnostic.

[TheSkepticChristian]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So in the event you don't know, what is the reason for not acting on faith? 

No need. If Mormonism is true, we will still go to heaven. The Terrestrial Kingdom is far better than Earth. 

However, if Mormonism is not true, I will not go to heaven, so it is best to make this life our heaven. 

What if Cryonics is a better option? 

[Teancum]

On May 31, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Mystery Meat said:

Agnostics are cowards who won't commit to anything because they might be wrong. 

Oh horse crap.   This is a simpletons response.  It's the same as me saying faith is intellectually bereft of critical thinking or rational thought.  Faith is a cowards way of dealing with the I knowable.  See how easy it is to throw out such grabage,. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by Teancum

[Bernard Gui]

On May 29, 2016 at 7:15 PM, TheSkepticChristian said:

However, you are assuming that such questions are meaningful. Perhaps we (humans) are just star dust in a meaningless universe. Perhaps there is no such thing as purpose. We don't  know that. I hope not. 

What is your purpose in arguing against the existence of God?

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

I am not going to have a discussion with you about that video. I posted that video for other scenes just to give an example.

I a Mormon and a Gospel expert, I am not saying God doesn't exists. Come on!

 

Interesting. You post a provocative video, are faced with its idiotic duplicity, and then don't want to discuss it. Why bother to post it?

What is a gospel expert? How do you qualify for that title?

When you enter a thread it is usually for the purpose of questioning the existence of God. Come on?

Edited June 2, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[TheSkepticChristian]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting. You post a provocative video, are faced with its idiotic duplicity, and then don't want to discuss it. Why bother to post it?

I shared that video to Mystery Meat (for other scenes), not you. It's hard to have a conversation with you. 

So when are you going to define God?

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What is a gospel expert? How do you qualify for that title?

I am an expert on the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I know the doctrine. No need to go to college for that. 

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

When you enter a thread it is usually for the purpose of questioning the existence of God. Come on?

When did I present arguments against the existence of God? Only against the Trinitarian God, not the Mormon God. 

I believe in the alien God, I believe his existence is highly probable. 

[JLHPROF]

41 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

I am an expert on the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I know the doctrine. No need to go to college for that.

Definition of an expert:
An ex is a has-been.
and a spurt is a drip under pressure.

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

I shared that video to Mystery Meat (for other scenes), not you. It's hard to have a conversation with you. 

So when are you going to define God?

I am an expert on the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I know the doctrine. No need to go to college for that. 

When did I present arguments against the existence of God? Only against the Trinitarian God, not the Mormon God. 

I believe in the alien God, I believe his existence is highly probable. 

Many things in life are hard. You prefaced the problematic video with, "True, but science and psychology can replicate religious experiences," and then showed an illusionist playing tricks on his audience, He is neither a scientist nor a psychologist. It did not support your position. 

A definition of God is irrelevant to my question.

Experts usually have some sort of credential, certification, pedigree, recognized status, extensive experience over a long time, or some other proof other than a simple self-congratulatory boast.

An alien God is not Mormon doctrine, but it is used to mock, really ductless, and misrepresent true Mormon doctrine by such folk as Walter Martin, Ed Decker and many others.

 

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

 

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Experts usually have some sort of credential, certification, pedigree, recognized status, extensive experience over a long time, or some other proof other than a simple self-congratulatory boast.

LOL LOL Now you are contradicting what Elder Uchtdorf said, " I invite you to also become experts in the doctrines of the gospel—especially the doctrine of the priesthood"  

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

A definition of God is irrelevant to my question.

It is not! There is no such thing as a general concept of God. To me God is an extraterrestrial. Does he listen to our prayers? Does he even know about us? I have no idea. 

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Many things in life are hard. You prefaced the problematic video with, "True, but science and psychology can replicate religious experiences," and then showed an illusionist playing tricks on his audience, He is neither a scientist nor a psychologist. 

Why insist in talking about that video? i doubt you watched the entire video. You said, "Do you not see the problem with this? They never verified that the man's twin sister was not hurt, possessed, or killed when he stabbed her photo! She should have been there in the audience to prove the ceremony did not work!"  No I don't see a problem! Give me a break,  you think there is a reasonable possibility that she was hurt?

 Enough please. That was a nonsense critique, I bet I myself can do a better job in critiquing that video.  

PS  I think the volunteers are in fact just actors, but it is true that humans do selection bias

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It did not support your position. 

I shared that video for this scene

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

An alien God is not Mormon doctrine, but it is used to mock, really ductless, and misrepresent true Mormon doctrine by such folk as Walter Martin, Ed Decker and many others.

Many that participate here in the MDDB disagree with you. Martin and Decker are comedians, no one cares about them. 

Edited June 3, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

On 6/3/2016 at 3:24 AM, Bernard Gui said:

 

An alien God is not Mormon doctrine, but it is used to mock

So y did u ignore what i just said?

[Bernard Gui]

On June 3, 2016 at 7:42 AM, TheSkepticChristian said:

 

LOL LOL Now you are contradicting what Elder Uchtdorf said, " I invite you to also become experts in the doctrines of the gospel—especially the doctrine of the priesthood"  

It is not! There is no such thing as a general concept of God. To me God is an extraterrestrial. Does he listen to our prayers? Does he even know about us? I have no idea. 

Why insist in talking about that video? i doubt you watched the entire video. You said, "Do you not see the problem with this? They never verified that the man's twin sister was not hurt, possessed, or killed when he stabbed her photo! She should have been there in the audience to prove the ceremony did not work!"  No I don't see a problem! Give me a break,  you think there is a reasonable possibility that she was hurt?

 Enough please. That was a nonsense critique, I bet I myself can do a better job in critiquing that video.  

PS  I think the volunteers are in fact just actors, but it is true that humans do selection bias

I shared that video for this scene

Many that participate here in the MDDB disagree with you. Martin and Decker are comedians, no one cares about them. 

So, Elder Uchtdorf has endorsed your expertise? You must be an expert, then. 

If you have no idea about God or think he is an extraterrestrial (whatever that is), then how can you be an expert on His gospel and Priesthood?

Speaking of LOL. I watched the video. It was ridiculous. It was not scientific or psychological, but pop entertainment.  I made a ridiculous comment to lampoon it and you took it seriously. Give me a break.

Yeah, but I don't think yours would be as funny. You must have missed this:

Quote

 

About the video, this is the slight of hand I was talking about: Is there a problem with the question he asked the audience "Who believes in Satan and that you can gain his protection by stabbing a photo of someone you love?"

Do you think he was kidding?

Is Derren Brown a scientist, a psychologist, or both?

 

Then you should have specified that scene rather than just through up some silly video as if it were scientific and psychological proof of your position. That was a cruel scene. 

If you think they are comedians, you have never dealt with them personally, or with the havoc they have wreaked. 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Bernard Gui