Eternal Sameness vs Eternal Diversity

[JLHPROF]

In another thread Sky said:

Quote

Diversity and freedom are simply new-age, liberal ideals with no eternal value?  I can't accept that.    

Seems to me like the millennium and heaven are going to be very boring if everybody is just like us.    

So I would like to discuss what elements and characteristics we think are eternally unique and which parts of us will be consumed in oneness with God and Christ (who have been described by some as indistinguishable from each other).

Scriptures say that EVERY tongue will confess/acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ.
Joseph taught that sandy colored hair was not a hair color of Celestial beings.
We are constantly taught about surrendering our will to the will of God.
Those that opposed God's will were cast out of heaven.

So hair color, religion, free-will...which characteristics of uniqueness do we get to keep and which unique characteristics are on borrowed mortal time?
Ideas?

[Hamba Tuhan]

All I know from personal experience and observation is that sin creates a stultifying sameness whilst obedience to the commandments of God creates incredible diversity by making of each man or woman the best version of him- or herself. I don't understand exactly how this works, but it does. The quirkiest men I know -- those who are most uniquely themselves -- are in all cases the most devout Latter-day Saints. I think it may in part be because sins are actually finite in number, but there are an infinite number of ways to be godly.

[Bobbieaware]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

In another thread Sky said:

So I would like to discuss what elements and characteristics we think are eternally unique and which parts of us will be consumed in oneness with God and Christ (who have been described by some as indistinguishable from each other).

Scriptures say that EVERY tongue will confess/acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ.
Joseph taught that sandy colored hair was not a hair color of Celestial beings.
We are constantly taught about surrendering our will to the will of God.
Those that opposed God's will were cast out of heaven.

So hair color, religion, free-will...which characteristics of uniqueness do we get to keep and which unique characteristics are on borrowed mortal time?
Ideas?

Preference for favorite ice cream flavors and pizza toppings.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Preference for favorite ice cream flavors and pizza toppings.

Preference might remain assuming we have perfect memories.  But can't kill a resurrected animal to make sausage.  Not even sure you can milk a resurrected cow to make cream or cheese.  Some question about animals even being allowed in the CK.

Edited May 20, 2016 by JLHPROF

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

All I know from personal experience and observation is that sin creates a stultifying sameness whilst obedience to the commandments of God creates incredible diversity by making of each man or woman the best version of him- or herself. I don't understand exactly how this works, but it does. The quirkiest men I know -- those who are most uniquely themselves -- are in all cases the most devout Latter-day Saints. I think it may in part be because sins are actually finite in number, but there are an infinite number of ways to be godly.

This.

[Maedros]

I don't know hey - but I would much rather forfeit all my transient uniqueness to be like exalted beings in every wit (if that is what's required) than keep it for the sake of being unique.  

[Bobbieaware]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Preference might remain assuming we have perfect memories.  But can't kill a resurrected animal to make sausage.  Not even sure you can milk a resurrected cow to make cream or cheese.  Some question about animals even being allowed in the CK.

If the Lord was able to turn water into wine, and if he was able to multiply loaves of bread and fishes (an animal protein), apparently out of thin air, then I imagine we will be able to mess around with molecular structures and therefore be able to create Italian sausage.out of thin air as well. And if all of this sounds far-fetched, remember the Lord ate grilled fish with his disciples AFTER his resurrection (does this suggest our digestive and elimination systems will still function normally AFTER the resurrection?). But I will admit that synthetically produced sausage meat somehow does seem kind of gross (perhaps we'll get used to it?). [Excuse me, I'll take one large pie with Italian "sausage" and chopped long hot Italian peppers.]

[janderich]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So hair color, religion, free-will...which characteristics of uniqueness do we get to keep and which unique characteristics are on borrowed mortal time?
Ideas?

Who know about hair color, facial features, etc. but I will say that this earth, if given the chance, brings forth a diversity of life, not sameness. It is largely man who kills species after species and limits the multitude of forms on this planet.  

Now a comment on freedom. Free will is foundational to life itself. As God himself said, "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also, otherwise there is not existence." (D&C 93:29-30). Existence implies freedom. One who follows God gains more freedom to be and do. Elder Packer once put it in these words, " Obedience that which God will never take by force—He will accept when freely given. And He will then return to you freedom that you can hardly dream of—the freedom to feel and to know, the freedom to do, and the freedom to be, at least a thousandfold more than we offer Him. Strangely enough, the key to freedom is obedience." ("Obedience", That All May Be Edified" pp. 256-261).

Sometimes we think that obedience will lead us to be the same. I say this is a lie and it is precisely the opposite. The most unique person ever to walk this earth was the Savior himself. There never was, and never will be, anyone like him. In as much as we follow him we will gain more freedom. This freedom is life itself, and when we hear the words eternal life we should not simply think of it in terms of length of time but in terms of abundance, ability, and plenitude. 

 

[jkwilliams]

One of the things I like about LDS theology is that our intelligence, however you want to define it, is uncreated, meaning that there is something inherently us that we share with no one else. We are unique and always have been. I've known people who believe that to become like God is to excise what is uniquely us out of our spirit/intelligence so that we will eventually be all alike, all with the same thoughts, feelings, and desires.

Frankly, a place where everyone is exactly the same forever sounds like hell to me. To quote Pete Townshend, "It's easy to see that you are one of us. Ain't it funny how we all seem to look the same?"

[Mystery Meat]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

One of the things I like about LDS theology is that our intelligence, however you want to define it, is uncreated, meaning that there is something inherently us that we share with no one else. We are unique and always have been. I've known people who believe that to become like God is to excise what is uniquely us out of our spirit/intelligence so that we will eventually be all alike, all with the same thoughts, feelings, and desires.

Frankly, a place where everyone is exactly the same forever sounds like hell to me. To quote Pete Townshend, "It's easy to see that you are one of us. Ain't it funny how we all seem to look the same?"

I actually do believe this, and I am not sure how anyone can believe otherwise with an understanding of how eternal progression and divinity according to Mormon theology. I wonder how two perfect beings could reasonably different in any meaningful way? God loves perfectly. He has a perfect personality and sense of humor. He speaks perfectly. He thinks perfectly. In fact, I strongly believe that if two different gods were given the same challenge to solve, they would both solve it the same way. I think this bothers people for the exact reason mentioned in the original post: it bothers people's culturally created value of "Hey, look at me, I am unique and special." Being different has never been the goal, but being one with God (and with each other) is what we strive for and will ultimately obtain. It really begins to allow us to understand what it means when Christ says he and the Father are one.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

In another thread Sky said:

So I would like to discuss what elements and characteristics we think are eternally unique and which parts of us will be consumed in oneness with God and Christ (who have been described by some as indistinguishable from each other).

Scriptures say that EVERY tongue will confess/acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ.
Joseph taught that sandy colored hair was not a hair color of Celestial beings.
We are constantly taught about surrendering our will to the will of God.
Those that opposed God's will were cast out of heaven.

So hair color, religion, free-will...which characteristics of uniqueness do we get to keep and which unique characteristics are on borrowed mortal time?
Ideas?

Eternally unique: I'd say our subjectivity, our moments (and by extension what we do within those moments), and our memories. I'd include with that our eternal relationships (sealings) and continuation of the seeds; the generations of worlds without end that proceed forth from us; and our individual relationships with and worship of our Heavenly Father and Christ.

Temporarily unique: in ligth of all that, and which we can enjoy even now, who cares?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Mystery Meat said:

I actually do believe this, and I am not sure how anyone can believe otherwise with an understanding of how eternal progression and divinity according to Mormon theology. I wonder how two perfect beings could reasonably different in any meaningful way? God loves perfectly. He has a perfect personality and sense of humor. He speaks perfectly. He thinks perfectly. In fact, I strongly believe that if two different gods were given the same challenge to solve, they would both solve it the same way. I think this bothers people for the exact reason mentioned in the original post: it bothers people's culturally created value of "Hey, look at me, I am unique and special." Being different has never been the goal, but being one with God (and with each other) is what we strive for and will ultimately obtain. It really begins to allow us to understand what it means when Christ says he and the Father are one.

I don't believe "perfect" means "the same." And if the LDS gospel is true, I don't see any reason to believe that being "one" means we will lose the parts of us that are unique. When I was on my mission, at first I tried really hard to just do exactly what I was told and try to think the way I thought a missionary would behave. I had a sort of epiphany one day when I was putting on my name tag. It read "Elder Williams," not "Generic Elder" or "Elder Exactly Like Everyone Else." I suddenly realized that I had been called to Bolivia because my unique qualities were needed then and there, and trying to erase who I was in favor of some model missionary was exactly the opposite of what Heavenly Father wanted from me. I do not for a second believe God wants us to erase who we are in favor of some uniformity of thought and action. You seem to believe that's a prideful attitude, but I see it as God knowing who we are and doing His will through us and because of our unique perspectives, not in spite of them.

[Mystery Meat]

44 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't believe "perfect" means "the same." And if the LDS gospel is true, I don't see any reason to believe that being "one" means we will lose the parts of us that are unique. When I was on my mission, at first I tried really hard to just do exactly what I was told and try to think the way I thought a missionary would behave. I had a sort of epiphany one day when I was putting on my name tag. It read "Elder Williams," not "Generic Elder" or "Elder Exactly Like Everyone Else." I suddenly realized that I had been called to Bolivia because my unique qualities were needed then and there, and trying to erase who I was in favor of some model missionary was exactly the opposite of what Heavenly Father wanted from me. I do not for a second believe God wants us to erase who we are in favor of some uniformity of thought and action. You seem to believe that's a prideful attitude, but I see it as God knowing who we are and doing His will through us and because of our unique perspectives, not in spite of them.

Unique gifts and attributes are a temporary state and condition. It has some benefit here on earth where each of us has not yet obtained perfection, but have brought with us skills and gifts of varying degrees. So while I may be a particularly good people person, I may not have the best administrative skills. Others do and so in the end we help and left one another.

But tell me, how would a God who is a perfect being in every respect; who possesses every good gift in perfection; who knows all and sees all; who loves without fault; who judges perfectly; who knows perfectly how to succor His children; how would such a being be any different from a similar being who also possessed all good characteristics in perfection?

Edited for clarity.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[Gray]

20 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Unique gifts and attributes are a temporary state and condition. It has some benefit here on earth where each of us has not yet obtained perfection, but have brought with us skills and gifts of varying degrees. So while I may be a particularly good people person, I may not have the best administrative skills. Others do and so in the end we help and left one another.

But tell me, how would a God who is a perfect being in every respect; who possesses every good gift in perfection; who knows all and sees all; who loves without fault; who judges perfectly; who knows perfectly how to succor His children; how would such a being be any different from a similar being who also possessed all good characteristics in perfection?

Edited for clarity.

You make the Celestial Kingdom sound like assimilation with the Borg hive-mind. 

[Mystery Meat]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

You make the Celestial Kingdom sound like assimilation with the Borg hive-mind. 

Okay, but you didn't answer my question.

[jkwilliams]

38 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Unique gifts and attributes are a temporary state and condition. It has some benefit here on earth where each of us has not yet obtained perfection, but have brought with us skills and gifts of varying degrees. So while I may be a particularly good people person, I may not have the best administrative skills. Others do and so in the end we help and left one another.

But tell me, how would a God who is a perfect being in every respect; who possesses every good gift in perfection; who knows all and sees all; who loves without fault; who judges perfectly; who knows perfectly how to succor His children; how would such a being be any different from a similar being who also possessed all good characteristics in perfection?

Edited for clarity.

If God prefers Sarah Vaughan to Ella Fitzgerald, do we all have to?

[JLHPROF]

Anybody want to take some scriptural approaches to uniqueness vs diversity?

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Anybody want to take some scriptural approaches to uniqueness vs diversity?

There's a newsroom article on the subject (which includes a scripture) which i think can be extended to the Church of the Firstborn and exaltation.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/unity-in-diversity

"Living the gospel does not require people to give up what makes them unique. The qualities that form identity and build character also contribute to the good of the Church." What are the qualities that form identity (the Proclamation mentions gender and family roles) and build character (obedience through agency)?

I think one of the hallmarks of divine nature is the ability to work successfully in councils. In a sense God is a Council. At the most fundamental level, God is Man and Wife, and building from there, the "same sociality" that exists here. Elder Ballard recently spoke of family councils, and I think this in many ways is how Perfection is achieved and carried out, and why Oneness is so vital.

Edited May 20, 2016 by CV75

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Anybody want to take some scriptural approaches to uniqueness vs diversity?

The word "alike" is used several places in the scriptures to explain how God treats his children and how we are to treat one another. For example, here's D&C 51:9:

"And let every man deal honestly, and be alike among this people, and receive alike, that ye may be one, even as I have commanded you." 

We are to be as one, unified in purpose and righteousness. But it doesn't say "think the same thoughts, like the same things, be exactly the same in everything."

[Gray]

35 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Okay, but you didn't answer my question.

I would say that two perfect Gods could have very different personalities. They could be equally loving, equally good, but not every aspect of a person's personality is tied to goodness or righteousness. 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

I would say that two perfect Gods could have very different personalities. They could be equally loving, equally good, but not every aspect of a person's personality is tied to goodness or righteousness. 

That's what my answer was meant to convey but you said it better. 

[Ahab]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

In another thread Sky said:

So I would like to discuss what elements and characteristics we think are eternally unique and which parts of us will be consumed in oneness with God and Christ (who have been described by some as indistinguishable from each other).

Scriptures say that EVERY tongue will confess/acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ.
Joseph taught that sandy colored hair was not a hair color of Celestial beings.
We are constantly taught about surrendering our will to the will of God.
Those that opposed God's will were cast out of heaven.

So hair color, religion, free-will...which characteristics of uniqueness do we get to keep and which unique characteristics are on borrowed mortal time?
Ideas?

Not all of us are going to become exactly like our Father in every way, and even the people who do will not get that way all at once at the same time so there will still be various differences between them as they gradually get that way.  And righteous women will never even have a shot at becoming exactly like him because they will never be men.

And acknowledging/confessing that Jesus is the Christ doesn't mean everyone will become like him or even want to become like him, either.  Satan will even acknowledge that he is but with no intention at all of following him.

And do you really want to get into trivialities like what color of hair celestial beings have?  I think Joseph was displaying his sense of humor when he said no celestial being would have sandy colored hair and if I rolled around in some sand as a celestial being I'm absolutely sure that I could make at least some of my hair that color. 

[Ahab]

36 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Anybody want to take some scriptural approaches to uniqueness vs diversity?

I'm sure some people may want to but I'm not going to do that right now just to show that I can be different. 

[Ahab]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

One of the things I like about LDS theology is that our intelligence, however you want to define it, is uncreated, meaning that there is something inherently us that we share with no one else. We are unique and always have been. I've known people who believe that to become like God is to excise what is uniquely us out of our spirit/intelligence so that we will eventually be all alike, all with the same thoughts, feelings, and desires.

Frankly, a place where everyone is exactly the same forever sounds like hell to me. To quote Pete Townshend, "It's easy to see that you are one of us. Ain't it funny how we all seem to look the same?"

As far as intelligence goes, there are only 2 extremes.  Either having as little or as much as our kind of being can have.

My goal is to have as much as I can possibly have, eventually, getting more and more as I progress through what I think of as eternal life.

[Robert F. Smith]

21 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

.................................................................
Joseph taught that sandy colored hair was not a hair color of Celestial beings.
..............................................................

So hair color, religion, free-will...which characteristics of uniqueness do we get to keep and which unique characteristics are on borrowed mortal time?
Ideas?

In his 1844 description of the  First Vision to Alexander Neibaur (Hugh Nibley's great-grandfather), Joseph said that the two beings "exactly resembled each other in their features or likeness" (they are father and son). The first personage had "light complexion, blue eyes," etc.  Maybe even the same DNA.