Our Enemies

[stemelbow]

One of my concerns with Church, and yes as some might have noticed I have a few of these, is we often seem to want enemies so badly we create them on our own.  I fear there is too much of a desire amongst our members to see others as lesser, too much of a desire to define others as the opposition we need.  caricatures are created at Church all the time, it seems to me, in order to make ourselves feel better about our position or teaching. 

This past week my son and I walked into Priesthood Opening exercises and a couple of brethren came over to chat.  One, a car salesman, asked my son if he knew a kid who came in looking for a new car.  This kid comes from a rich family--drives his family's nice vehicles.  One of the brothers in the conversation spoke out saying, "90% of kids who are raised like that, come out bad.  They never learn.  blah blah blah..."  This was my son's friend.  I thought it was uncalled for, an unfair judgment.  I wanted to issue a CFR, but that would have come off as silly.  But it made me think, "wow without knowing this kid or his family this guy wants to generalize about a subset of our people in order to condemn something or someone".  Not sure what drives this mindset but it's pretty prevalent in Church.  Maybe this particular example isn't that big of deal.  But I think it illustrates a common practice or attitude in the Church--drawing caricatures in hopes to identify enemies or at the very least to highlight examples of doing things wrong in others. 

[jkwilliams]

I'm not sure this is unique to Mormonism. Humans by nature see the world as "us" and "the Other." Basically, we like and promote people we think are like us, and we distance ourselves from those we think aren't. True, some people have made creating an enemies a sort of art form, but fortunately, such people aren't the norm.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm not sure this is unique to Mormonism. Humans by nature see the world as "us" and "the Other." Basically, we like and promote people we think are like us, and we distance ourselves from those we think aren't. True, some people have made creating an enemies a sort of art form, but fortunately, such people aren't the norm.

Fair enough.  I don't think it unique to Mormonism either.  But just because it's not unique does not mean it's not an issue we ought to address. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Fair enough.  I don't think it unique to Mormonism either.  But just because it's not unique does not mean it's not an issue we ought to address. 

Speaking solely for myself, I can't remember a time that I wasn't taught that we church members were "different," that other people were watching us to see if we upheld the church's teachings. Becoming like the world was something to be wary of, maybe even a little afraid. I don't think I necessarily saw people as enemies, but just as outside the boundaries of what I should be and what would give me a happy life. But sure, apostates and anti-Mormons were easy to spot as enemies, and I think the church has since the beginning taught that people opposed to the church for any reason should be considered enemies. 

For me, it was interacting on the old FAIR board that taught me that even the most virulent anti-Mormon is not necessarily my enemy. There are some dishonest and evil critics of the church (depending on whom you ask, that may include me), but I learned a long time ago that most people are just doing the best they can with the understanding they have. Such people cannot be my enemies.

[Storm Rider]

29 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

One of my concerns with Church, and yes as some might have noticed I have a few of these, is we often seem to want enemies so badly we create them on our own.  I fear there is too much of a desire amongst our members to see others as lesser, too much of a desire to define others as the opposition we need.  caricatures are created at Church all the time, it seems to me, in order to make ourselves feel better about our position or teaching. 

This past week my son and I walked into Priesthood Opening exercises and a couple of brethren came over to chat.  One, a car salesman, asked my son if he knew a kid who came in looking for a new car.  This kid comes from a rich family--drives his family's nice vehicles.  One of the brothers in the conversation spoke out saying, "90% of kids who are raised like that, come out bad.  They never learn.  blah blah blah..."  This was my son's friend.  I thought it was uncalled for, an unfair judgment.  I wanted to issue a CFR, but that would have come off as silly.  But it made me think, "wow without knowing this kid or his family this guy wants to generalize about a subset of our people in order to condemn something or someone".  Not sure what drives this mindset but it's pretty prevalent in Church.  Maybe this particular example isn't that big of deal.  But I think it illustrates a common practice or attitude in the Church--drawing caricatures in hopes to identify enemies or at the very least to highlight examples of doing things wrong in others. 

So the individual talking about rich kids that live their younger years in luxury and abundance has made a generalization about all rich families with children.  Interestingly, you make several generalizations about Latter-day Saints and the Church.  Tell me physician, who exactly needs to be healed?

Generalizations fall apart because they are generalizations.  When faced with individuals there is a necessary shift in focus.  It would have been helpful if your son or you had said, we know that young man - he is a really great guy.  What would have happened in this instance?  The generalization would have fallen apart because the focus is the individual rather than some amorphous "other".

[stemelbow]

20 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

So the individual talking about rich kids that live their younger years in luxury and abundance has made a generalization about all rich families with children.  Interestingly, you make several generalizations about Latter-day Saints and the Church.  Tell me physician, who exactly needs to be healed?

Generalizations fall apart because they are generalizations.  When faced with individuals there is a necessary shift in focus.  It would have been helpful if your son or you had said, we know that young man - he is a really great guy.  What would have happened in this instance?  The generalization would have fallen apart because the focus is the individual rather than some amorphous "other".

We both did say he's a good kid.  But, the guy repeated himself, suggesting in spite of that the kid is probably gonna end up bad.  But, whatever the case, I hear your point.  I can get carried away with generalizations too.  Thanks for the reminder. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

One of my concerns with Church, and yes as some might have noticed I have a few of these, is we often seem to want enemies so badly we create them on our own.  I fear there is too much of a desire amongst our members to see others as lesser, too much of a desire to define others as the opposition we need.  caricatures are created at Church all the time, it seems to me, in order to make ourselves feel better about our position or teaching. 

This past week my son and I walked into Priesthood Opening exercises and a couple of brethren came over to chat.  One, a car salesman, asked my son if he knew a kid who came in looking for a new car.  This kid comes from a rich family--drives his family's nice vehicles.  One of the brothers in the conversation spoke out saying, "90% of kids who are raised like that, come out bad.  They never learn.  blah blah blah..."  This was my son's friend.  I thought it was uncalled for, an unfair judgment.  I wanted to issue a CFR, but that would have come off as silly.  But it made me think, "wow without knowing this kid or his family this guy wants to generalize about a subset of our people in order to condemn something or someone".  Not sure what drives this mindset but it's pretty prevalent in Church.  Maybe this particular example isn't that big of deal.  But I think it illustrates a common practice or attitude in the Church--drawing caricatures in hopes to identify enemies or at the very least to highlight examples of doing things wrong in others. 

In early Mormonism there seems to be a theme of asking God to get vengeance upon the enemies of the saints, or wishing for it in hymns. Maybe it comes from there. But of course this is in now way unique to Mormonism. Dip your toe into politics and it's everywhere. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

In early Mormonism there seems to be a theme of asking God to get vengeance upon the enemies of the saints, or wishing for it in hymns. Maybe it comes from there. But of course this is in now way unique to Mormonism. Dip your toe into politics and it's everywhere. 

From the beginning, those considered to be the worst enemies have been dissenters and apostates. That hasn't changed much, in my experience.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

One of my concerns with Church, and yes as some might have noticed I have a few of these, is we often seem to want enemies so badly we create them on our own.  I fear there is too much of a desire amongst our members to see others as lesser, too much of a desire to define others as the opposition we need.  caricatures are created at Church all the time, it seems to me, in order to make ourselves feel better about our position or teaching. 

This past week my son and I walked into Priesthood Opening exercises and a couple of brethren came over to chat.  One, a car salesman, asked my son if he knew a kid who came in looking for a new car.  This kid comes from a rich family--drives his family's nice vehicles.  One of the brothers in the conversation spoke out saying, "90% of kids who are raised like that, come out bad.  They never learn.  blah blah blah..."  This was my son's friend.  I thought it was uncalled for, an unfair judgment.  I wanted to issue a CFR, but that would have come off as silly.  But it made me think, "wow without knowing this kid or his family this guy wants to generalize about a subset of our people in order to condemn something or someone".  Not sure what drives this mindset but it's pretty prevalent in Church.  Maybe this particular example isn't that big of deal.  But I think it illustrates a common practice or attitude in the Church--drawing caricatures in hopes to identify enemies or at the very least to highlight examples of doing things wrong in others. 

My experience is that what you are describing is not just prevalent in church, but for people in general.  We all tend to exaggerate, jump to conclusions, draw stereotypes, etc.

[rpn]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I thought it was uncalled for, an unfair judgment.  I wanted to issue a CFR, but that would have come off as silly. 

And it is this kind of not challenging that allows this to continue in whatever social circle does it.   (I'm not one to think this is religiously or faith related.  It happens or doesn't in many different circles.)   When we observe questionable things, we need to say something to challenge the thinking, in very kind tones and words.   Group think is when people go along because they think everyone believes or wants to do what is being suggested:  group think is often quite destructive.

[Ahab]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

But I think it illustrates a common practice or attitude in the Church--drawing caricatures in hopes to identify enemies or at the very least to highlight examples of doing things wrong in others. 

Yeah I hate it when I see people do that.  It seems as if some people take forever to learn how they should be.  Just recently I heard a story about a father and son who walked into a priesthood meeting and...

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

We both did say he's a good kid.  But, the guy repeated himself, suggesting in spite of that the kid is probably gonna end up bad.  But, whatever the case, I hear your point.  I can get carried away with generalizations too.  Thanks for the reminder. 

I now take back every bad thing,... well at least one of the bad things... I've ever thought about you. 

Carry on fighting the good fight, bro  For your own good.

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

From the beginning, those considered to be the worst enemies have been dissenters and apostates. That hasn't changed much, in my experience.

Nor should it change much.

You're not holding out for a day when the good followers of our Lord Jesus are going yo be considered the world's worst enemies, are you???

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Nor should it change much.

You're not holding out for a day when the good followers of our Lord Jesus are going yo be considered the world's worst enemies, are you???

I don't consider anyone to be my enemy. At least I have never met anyone I would consider an enemy. I'm not sure why you think I am hoping for the day when Christians are the church's worst enemies.

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't consider anyone to be my enemy. At least I have never met anyone I would consider an enemy. I'm not sure why you think I am hoping for the day when Christians are the church's worst enemies.

I'm not thinking that, and am glad that you're not.  

To me an enemy is someone who wants to hurt me in some way, and our Lord wants us to pray for our enemies rather than pretend they do not exist. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

I'm not thinking that, and am glad that you're not.  

To me an enemy is someone who wants to hurt me in some way, and our Lord wants us to pray for our enemies rather than pretend they do not exist. 

I don't know anyone who wants to hurt me, at least no one specifically. I'd imagine there are a few folks in Raqqa who would want to hurt me if I showed up there. But in my everyday life, no, I can't think of any enemies, and I'm not just pretending they don't exist. Maybe they do, but if so, I don't know about it.

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't know anyone who wants to hurt me, at least no one specifically. I'd imagine there are a few folks in Raqqa who would want to hurt me if I showed up there. But in my everyday life, no, I can't think of any enemies, and I'm not just pretending they don't exist. Maybe they do, but if so, I don't know about it.

Terrorists are your friends, ya think?

There are lots of bad people out there in the world who would like to hurt you in some bad way.

And now that you have been made aware of that fact you can include them in your thoughts when you pray that God will help them in some way.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Terrorists are your friends, ya think?

There are lots of bad people out there in the world who would like to hurt you in some bad way.

And now that you have been made aware of that fact you can include them in your thoughts when you pray that God will help them in some way.

And there are people who just want to sneer, apparently. 

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

We both did say he's a good kid.  But, the guy repeated himself, suggesting in spite of that the kid is probably gonna end up bad.  But, whatever the case, I hear your point.  I can get carried away with generalizations too.  Thanks for the reminder. 

stemelbow, we all generalize; you are not alone. If I am going to judge someone the first judgement is that (s)he is human.  After that there is really not a lot to be said.  It works for friends and enemies, politicians, church leaders, church members, and everyone else.  

Edited May 17, 2016 by Storm Rider

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

And there are people who just want to sneer, apparently. 

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.  

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Storm Rider said:

stemelbow, we all generalize; you are not alone. One of the things I consider when I want to make a judgement of other people is:  If I am going to judge someone the first judgement is that (s)he is human.  After that there is really not a lot to be said.  It works for friends and enemies, politicians, church leaders, church members, and everyone else.  

Well said. When I was growing up, my father taught us to always expect human weakness in everyone, even church leaders. My sister (the one who is active in the church) and I have talked about this and said how grateful we were for that teaching because, despite the failings we've seen in church leaders, we have never been disappointed in anyone because we expect failings. Heaven knows I have many failings, and my only hope is that I can forgive others' failings as I hope they will forgive mine.

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.  

I don't see anyone trying to hurt you here.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't see anyone trying to hurt you here.

Then either there isn't or you just don't see who is

To be on the safe side I'll continue to pray that our Father will help anyone who wants to hurt anyone in any way.

[jkwilliams]

35 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Then either there isn't or you just don't see who is

To be on the safe side I'll continue to pray that our Father will help anyone who wants to hurt anyone in any way.

I will too, but if someone wants to hurt me, I should probably find out why and see if I can resolve the problem. Couldn't hurt, anyway.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Then either there isn't or you just don't see who is

To be on the safe side I'll continue to pray that our Father will help anyone who wants to hurt anyone in any way.

I keep telling you that that incident where I dropped an anvil on your head was an accident.