The Elephant in the Livingroom, no, sorry, In the Kitchen

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I honestly struggle to understand what people are arguing about in threads like this.  Everyone seems to agree the Americas were populated before Lehi and co, and it seems most if not all agree the Americas were populated before the Jaredites.  And yet we want to emphasize that's not what leaders have taught and what members have believed?  Let's cut each other some slack here.  Once Joseph Smith first had to start explaining what he perceived to be the reality of the BoM and its history, he was making assumptions.  I see it the same for me.  Once I offer an explanation for something I'm making tons of assumptions, things I might even call givens.  But, likely somewhere along the way I'm wrong in my assumptions.  It'll always be that way. 

Sometimes I feel justified in criticizing the church for wrong assumptions.  But other times I have to say, "well yeah...what do I expect?  We're just a bunch of people making assumptions and trying to work things out?" 

Sorry, I guess I've feeling a little bit like, "what's the point?" today.

[Rajah Manchou]

 

9 hours ago, cinepro said:

Sorry, but that's not what is described in Ether.  Remember that they had air holes on the top and bottom, so when the boats flipped over (!) they could unplug whichever hole was on top:

Keep in mind that these boats were filled with this stuff while they were flipping over:

It is what is described in Ether 2:17. And in verse 20 two airholes are added so they could get air. But the boats are still as long as a tree and peaked at the end with a door that can be opened and closed. Adding two airholes doesn't change the design of the boat.

Nothing is said about the boats having ever flipped over. Maybe they did once, or twice, or hundreds of times, or never. Its not mentioned in the text.

But I get where you're coming from. The Jaredite boat trip has always been the most difficult for me to accept as a historical event. Too many impossible elements. But we do know from the archaeological record and linguistic research that boat trips were being made from East Asia into the Pacific Ocean around 2500 BC and as far back as 8000 BC and possibly as far back as 15,000 BC. The boats used in the more recent migrations probably looked a lot like the ones in the photo. At some point these migrations likely reached the American coast and that is why we find Australo-Melanesian DNA in South America and pre-ice corridor mastodon hunters in Florida. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, canard78 said:

does anyone else get comments stuck in their text box? Sometimes happens to me and every time I try to reply it just re-opens the same post from a while back. 

Yes. The only way I can always get rid of this is to delete the text below the quote box if any. Then you have to delete the quote box by placing your cursor over the box, and then clicking your <ctrl> button and your right mouse button at the same time. Then a box will pop up allowing you to "remove quote." Select that and your edit box will be clear. Then go back and quote the post you want to comment on, and the quote box will appear in your edit box. It is a pain but it works.

[rodheadlee]

9 hours ago, canard78 said:

does anyone else get comments stuck in their text box? Sometimes happens to me and every time I try to reply it just re-opens the same post from a while back. 

YES!

[rodheadlee]

13 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I honestly struggle to understand what people are arguing about in threads like this.  Everyone seems to agree the Americas were populated before Lehi and co, and it seems most if not all agree the Americas were populated before the Jaredites.  And yet we want to emphasize that's not what leaders have taught and what members have believed?  Let's cut each other some slack here.  Once Joseph Smith first had to start explaining what he perceived to be the reality of the BoM and its history, he was making assumptions.  I see it the same for me.  Once I offer an explanation for something I'm making tons of assumptions, things I might even call givens.  But, likely somewhere along the way I'm wrong in my assumptions.  It'll always be that way. 

Sometimes I feel justified in criticizing the church for wrong assumptions.  But other times I have to say, "well yeah...what do I expect?  We're just a bunch of people making assumptions and trying to work things out?" 

Sorry, I guess I've feeling a little bit like, "what's the point?" today.

While I gave you a point for this I do enjoy history and geography threads over the gossip type threads. I'm glad that bcuzbcuz started this because i enjoy the link he posted aand Rajah's input with his alternative view as well as anybody else that has historical information to contribute.

[rodheadlee]

10 hours ago, cinepro said:

 

Keep in mind that these boats were filled with this stuff while they were flipping over:

 

And the journey lasted 344 days (v.11).  So they had food and water for the people and "flocks and herds" in airtight boats that had only one accessible hole for ventilation, and were flipping over in rough seas.

I think I know why they "shed tears of joy" when they got to the promised land.

Cinepro every good offshore sailor ties, packs, straps down every thing inside the boat on an ocean voyage. If you don't it will all wind up on the floor, in the middle of the boat, crushed. The LPS, Limit of Positive Stability on my boat is 114*. Think about that for a minute. FYI we all shed tears of joy upon making landfall after a long voyage.

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Cinepro every good offshore sailor ties, packs, straps down every thing inside the boat on an ocean voyage. If you don't it will all wind up on the floor, in the middle of the boat, crushed. The LPS, Limit of Positive Stability on my boat is 114*. Think about that for a minute. FYI we all shed tears of joy upon making landfall after a long voyage.

Wait a minute.

So mast straight up is 0 degrees right?

And 90 degrees is then completely on its side?- mast parallel to the ocean surface (of course in these conditions that would be the theoretical surface!)

And 114 degrees is the mast underwater 24 degrees??  And then it can still pop back up to vertical?

Holy cow!!

I was once on a sailboat - on deck- when it capsized and ended up underneath the sail, underwater and not able to get through the sail.  Not fun, but I ended up swimming under the hull to the other side of the boat underwater.  That breath was the best breath of my life!

Edited May 17, 2016 by mfbukowski

[rodheadlee]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Wait a minute.

So mast straight up is 0 degrees right?

And 90 degrees is then completely on its side?- mast parallel to the ocean surface (of course in these conditions that would be the theoretical surface!)

And 114 degrees is the mast underwater 24 degrees??  And then it can still pop back up to vertical?

Holy cow!!

Yeah, picture yourself sailing abeam to the seas, when you are riding sidways up a wave you can be 114* from straight up (0) and not have the sail fill up with water. If you fill the sail up with water it changes your LPS, then it won't pop up, it'll roll over, right side up, usually  minus a mast.

Edited May 17, 2016 by rodheadlee

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

 

It is what is described in Ether 2:17. And in verse 20 two airholes are added so they could get air. But the boats are still as long as a tree and peaked at the end with a door that can be opened and closed. Adding two airholes doesn't change the design of the boat.

One airhole was in the top, and one was in the bottom. 

 

Quote

 

 19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

 20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.

Ether 2

 

What do you think the air hole at the bottom was for?

Edited May 17, 2016 by cinepro

[Rajah Manchou]

6 hours ago, cinepro said:

One airhole was in the top, and one was in the bottom. 

 

What do you think the air hole at the bottom was for?

Probably so they could get air if the boat flipped over. What do you think the peaked ends were for?

Anyway, I'm not so interested in boat design so much as I'm interested in the distance these guys were able to cover. 


http://www.rogerblench.info/Language/Austronesian/General/Blench%20Ross%20Festschrift%20paper%20revised.pdf
 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[bcuzbcuz]

21 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I honestly struggle to understand what people are arguing about in threads like this.  Everyone seems to agree the Americas were populated before Lehi and co, and it seems most if not all agree the Americas were populated before the Jaredites.  And yet we want to emphasize that's not what leaders have taught and what members have believed?  Let's cut each other some slack here.  Once Joseph Smith first had to start explaining what he perceived to be the reality of the BoM and its history, he was making assumptions.  I see it the same for me.  Once I offer an explanation for something I'm making tons of assumptions, things I might even call givens.  But, likely somewhere along the way I'm wrong in my assumptions.  It'll always be that way. 

Sometimes I feel justified in criticizing the church for wrong assumptions.  But other times I have to say, "well yeah...what do I expect?  We're just a bunch of people making assumptions and trying to work things out?" 

Sorry, I guess I've feeling a little bit like, "what's the point?" today.

What you're saying, rather curtly IMO, is that you aren't interested. That's all fine and dandy. Personally, I take great interest in reading through science journals and when I find an article of interest I download the whole article and read the entire article and often check through the references. 

This particular, well researched and well documented, article specifically challenges the idea of the Clovis cultures being the first in the Americas. Both the Clovis and this Florida culture pre-date the Jaredite stories by 8 to 10,000 years.

While some responders to my posts concern themselves with HOW these people arrived in the Americas, my posting was only to identify the information now available regarding how these people lived and what they ate. Where they came from is immaterial at this point.

You are of the opinion that church leaders have not taught, nor have members believed, that the Americas were unpopulated prior to the arrival of the Jaredites. I do not have as short a memory as you (or else I am simply much older than you). The churches standpoints regarding the early civilizations of the Americas has been considerably revised during the last 20, perhaps even 30 years. The introduction to the Book of Mormon, for example, has been revised a few times to reflect the changing attitudes regarding the inhabitation of the Americas. And yes, I know, the introduction was/is not scripture. But it has been approved as the introduction by those responsible for publication.

Bottom line, regardless of opinions as to who and where the early inhabitants of the Americas were, a small group of people in Florida, 14,500 years ago, filled their bellies, probably during the course of a week or two, with mastadon meat. We know they enjoyed their meals to the point that they scraped, with knives, the meat down to the bones, and then, much like modern day visitors to a KFC, they chucked their knives in the garbage.

[rodheadlee]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

One airhole was in the top, and one was in the bottom. 

 

What do you think the air hole at the bottom was for?

Waste disposal. I have 15 holes in the bottom of my boat, they are called through hulls. Some are open and some are closed. The open through hulls have a hose that leads to something (like a sink drain) that is higher than the waterline so it won't sink.

Edited May 17, 2016 by rodheadlee

[Rajah Manchou]

21 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

While some responders to my posts concern themselves with HOW these people arrived in the Americas, my posting was only to identify the information now available regarding how these people lived and what they ate. Where they came from is immaterial at this point.

So what you're saying is that you aren't really all that interested in these people so much as you're interested that they pre-date any of the Book of Mormon colonizations..

Edited May 17, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[stemelbow]

21 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

What you're saying, rather curtly IMO, is that you aren't interested. That's all fine and dandy. Personally, I take great interest in reading through science journals and when I find an article of interest I download the whole article and read the entire article and often check through the references.

That's not what I'm saying.  What I'm saying is there is little to argue here.  Yes, people lived in the Americas before the BoM peoples.  Yes, LDS leaders taught no one lived here.  Yes many many LDS members still think to this day that no one was here when BoM came to the Americas.   

21 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

 

This particular, well researched and well documented, article specifically challenges the idea of the Clovis cultures being the first in the Americas. Both the Clovis and this Florida culture pre-date the Jaredite stories by 8 to 10,000 years.

Agreed.

21 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

While some responders to my posts concern themselves with HOW these people arrived in the Americas, my posting was only to identify the information now available regarding how these people lived and what they ate. Where they came from is immaterial at this point.

I have no issue with you starting the thread.  I spoke up because the arguments going on seemed to be a lot of talking past each other.

21 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

You are of the opinion that church leaders have not taught, nor have members believed, that the Americas were unpopulated prior to the arrival of the Jaredites.

That's precisely the opposite of my opinion. 

21 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I do not have as short a memory as you (or else I am simply much older than you). The churches standpoints regarding the early civilizations of the Americas has been considerably revised during the last 20, perhaps even 30 years. The introduction to the Book of Mormon, for example, has been revised a few times to reflect the changing attitudes regarding the inhabitation of the Americas. And yes, I know, the introduction was/is not scripture. But it has been approved as the introduction by those responsible for publication.

Bottom line, regardless of opinions as to who and where the early inhabitants of the Americas were, a small group of people in Florida, 14,500 years ago, filled their bellies, probably during the course of a week or two, with mastadon meat. We know they enjoyed their meals to the point that they scraped, with knives, the meat down to the bones, and then, much like modern day visitors to a KFC, they chucked their knives in the garbage.

Alright.  I guess your response to me represents my frustration with the happenings of this thread--I did not suggest what you think I suggested.  I have no desire to debate the details of the history of this land, but I will say, or reiterate, we all make assumptions when challenged to explain our understanding, particularly, of history.  I'd expect some major errors made by members of the Church and Church leaders as it relates to the history of the Americas, because the text lends well to assumption.  All of these are problems, sure. 

[bcuzbcuz]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

That's not what I'm saying.  What I'm saying is there is little to argue here.  Yes, people lived in the Americas before the BoM peoples.  Yes, LDS leaders taught no one lived here.  Yes many many LDS members still think to this day that no one was here when BoM came to the Americas.   

Agreed.

I have no issue with you starting the thread.  I spoke up because the arguments going on seemed to be a lot of talking past each other.

That's precisely the opposite of my opinion. 

Alright.  I guess your response to me represents my frustration with the happenings of this thread--I did not suggest what you think I suggested.  I have no desire to debate the details of the history of this land, but I will say, or reiterate, we all make assumptions when challenged to explain our understanding, particularly, of history.  I'd expect some major errors made by members of the Church and Church leaders as it relates to the history of the Americas, because the text lends well to assumption.  All of these are problems, sure. 

I apologize. I misunderstood your comment. Thank you for clarifying that. It seems we have many points of agreement.

[bcuzbcuz]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

So what you're saying is that you aren't really all that interested in these people so much as you're interested that they pre-date any of the Book of Mormon colonizations..

No, I'm saying that I'm keeping to what we know, not what might be or have been or what we might hope something to have been. I read the complete published article about What was discovered, How it was discovered, how it was Dated. I read several of the articles referenced through the footnotes, read background information on Who did the research and read a few articles published by the same. I enjoy a good read and my tastes are eclectic. As far as I know, there are no similar articles on Book of Mormon finds. I will undoubtedly comment when such occur.    

[bcuzbcuz]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Waste disposal. I have 15 holes in the bottom of my boat, they are called through hulls. Some are open and some are closed. The open through hulls have a hose that leads to something (like a sink drain) that is higher than the waterline so it won't sink.

Would I be correct in assuming that the holes that are closed, if opened while sailing, would result in your taking on water? The boat described in Ether seems like it would take on water if the bottom hole were opened while the bottom hole was under water, would it not?

[Rajah Manchou]

34 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

No, I'm saying that I'm keeping to what we know, not what might be or have been or what we might hope something to have been. I read the complete published article about What was discovered, How it was discovered, how it was Dated. I read several of the articles referenced through the footnotes, read background information on Who did the research and read a few articles published by the same. I enjoy a good read and my tastes are eclectic. As far as I know, there are no similar articles on Book of Mormon finds. I will undoubtedly comment when such occur.    

Didnt intend to go off topic, but the elephant in the room being discussed in the comments on all the other articles i've read are not related to Book of Mormon timelines, it is how did these people get there before the ice corridor?

The authors of the study are proposing boats, a surprising hypothesis given the strong opposition to such an idea. But fair enough, no conclusive evidence so its wise to be cautious. a topic for a different thread perhaps.

Thanks for sharing the OP. 

[cinepro]

14 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Cinepro every good offshore sailor ties, packs, straps down every thing inside the boat on an ocean voyage. If you don't it will all wind up on the floor, in the middle of the boat, crushed. The LPS, Limit of Positive Stability on my boat is 114*. Think about that for a minute. FYI we all shed tears of joy upon making landfall after a long voyage.

Well, I obviously have no experience as a sailor, so I'll defer to your expertise on whether or not that would work.

 

So, let's say you were conducting a voyage similar to that documented in the Book of Ether.  You need to prepare 8 "small barges" (16 stones for light, two in each barge), about the length of a "tree", that are totally airtight and watertight, except for one hole at the top, and one hole at the bottom (both of which can be sealed airtight).  You need to bring enough food and water for the people, as well as "flocks" and "herds" and "fowl" that you are transporting with you, and the voyage will last 344 days.

How much food would be needed for such a journey?  How much water would need to be stored (even if supplemented with fishing and rain water)? 

[rodheadlee]

11 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Would I be correct in assuming that the holes that are closed, if opened while sailing, would result in your taking on water? The boat described in Ether seems like it would take on water if the bottom hole were opened while the bottom hole was under water, would it not?

No, my 2 sinks and my toilet intake are never closed, except when we leave the boat for a long time.. If I knew how to draw you a pic and post it. I could show you. Mabe later I'll post a crude drawing. The bottom of my sink drain is about a foot above waterline. I tnever sloshes water. because of the angle of the drain pipe. My other boat would slosh minimal water in the sink if we heeled over to port , it drained staright down.

Edited May 18, 2016 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

Well, I obviously have no experience as a sailor, so I'll defer to your expertise on whether or not that would work.

 

So, let's say you were conducting a voyage similar to that documented in the Book of Ether.  You need to prepare 8 "small barges" (16 stones for light, two in each barge), about the length of a "tree", that are totally airtight and watertight, except for one hole at the top, and one hole at the bottom (both of which can be sealed airtight).  You need to bring enough food and water for the people, as well as "flocks" and "herds" and "fowl" that you are transporting with you, and the voyage will last 344 days.

How much food would be needed for such a journey?  How much water would need to be stored (even if supplemented with fishing and rain water)? 

About 700lbs per man per year for food, about 8800 lbs of water per man per year. We can carry about 5000 lbs in our boat, not counting engine, 200 gal water, 100 gal fuel, batteries, sails and rig, It's 43 feet x 12 feet, but it's only 31 feet at the waterline. We have long overhngs. A small barge can carry about 365 tons or about 730,000 lbs. 100' x 30' x 7 feet with 2 feet of free board That's about enough for 76 people.

Edited May 18, 2016 by rodheadlee

[mfbukowski]

49 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

About 700lbs per man per year for food, about 8800 lbs of water per man per year. We can carry about 5000 lbs in our boat, not counting engine, 200 gal water, 100 gal fuel, batteries, sails and rig, It's 43 feet x 12 feet, but it's only 31 feet at the waterline. We have long overhngs. A small barge can carry about 365 tons or about 730,000 lbs. 100' x 30' x 7 feet with 2 feet of free board That's about enough for 76 people.

What kind of food?

[rodheadlee]

13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What kind of food?

 I dunno. I pulled the estimate out of a book. We carry rice, pasta, canned veggies, canned fruit and  about 20 lbs of frozen meat (really small freezer). Whatever you can cook and eat. The fresh stuff like bread and produce only last about 2 weeks., except potatoes, onions and carrots last a long tine. Milk is UHT, only needs refrigeration after or right before you open it, tinned butter is the same. We carry some stuff for the bread maker but we still have to perfect our method. The machine uses a lot of power so we are going to try using it to mix the dough and then pull it out and bake it in the propane oven

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

 I dunno. I pulled the estimate out of a book. We carry rice, pasta, canned veggies, canned fruit and  about 20 lbs of frozen meat (really small freezer). Whatever you can cook and eat. The fresh stuff like bread and produce only last about 2 weeks., except potatoes, onions and carrots last a long tine. Milk is UHT, only needs refrigeration after or right before you open it, tinned butter is the same. We carry some stuff for the bread maker but we still have to perfect our method. The machine uses a lot of power so we are going to try using it to mix the dough and then pull it out and bake it in the propane oven

Great- thanks!  All common sense stuff- I guess you don't have a replicator like Star Trek on board huh?

[Garden Girl]

Hi Rod...

What is a "normal" sailing time that you have between ports/stops while actually asea?  Sounds like there's lots of things to consider and plan for in order to live a life at sea as you and Patti do...  how long do you plan to stay put before heading out again, and do you have a particular destination in mind?  I'm assuming the cats will be ready... Hope this finds you both well... You are often in my prayers...

from the beach... GG