The limitations of debate/argument

[bdouglas]

I recently attended the funeral of my grandmother. My siblings and extended family all gathered recently to remember her.

 

Some background....

 

I come from a very large family, a family which traces its roots back to pioneers and early church converts. Every one of my siblings married in the temple and all of my brothers went on missions and all have at one time or other been bishops or stake presidents. (I am the only exception in this regard.)

 

In the last five years or so, two of my brothers left the church, ostensibly over historical issues, B of A, etc. In the years since, I have had numerous conversations, debates with both of these brothers about church history, polygamy, polyandry––everything. A couple of times these debates have become heated.

 

What did all of these debates achieves? Nothing.

 

Fast forward to my grandmother’s funeral. There were two hundred people there: children, grandchildren, cousins, aunts and uncles, ward members. My grandmother was a true saint. I don’t think she knew anything about church history or anything like that, but she knew the gospel. She was a women who “hungered and thirsted after righteousness." She was meek and humble. She helped those in need. Each of my children, at the funeral, told about what “Grandma” had meant to him/her.

 

There was something about this funeral that cannot be explained. A feeling that was there. A certain spirit. It was unmistakable. The stake president was there, and also a GA, a Seventy. We all left the funeral with the feeling that we’d just had one of those experiences which occur maybe 2-3 times in a lifetime.

 

Later, I was sitting in a quiet room at a Marriott Hotel with one of my brothers who’d left the church, the one who’d left first. And he said, after there’d been a long silence, “You’re right. Joseph Smith was telling the truth.”

 

Talk about a big deal! On the one hand, I was surprised. But really I wasn’t. We’d just been to a funeral in which the church, the restored gospel, was front and center. And the power of this restored gospel...it was impossible to ignore.

 

A minute later my brother added, “The effect of Mormonism on the lives of people is really quite awe inspiring.”

 

I very nearly burst into tears. All of my debates with this brother, the emails, sending him this or that essay...and all it really takes is the funeral of my grandmother, a simple women who read the scriptures but not much else and worked every day of her life from dawn till the moment she collapsed into bed.

 

Now to work on my last brother, the one who is still out. But no more debates or arguments.

Edited May 10, 2016 by bdouglas

[Glenn101]

I cannot add anything to this except to say that must have been a wonderful experience. And it does affirm my belief that the whisperings of the Spirit is the better way.

Thanks for sharing that.

 

Glenn

[Rain]

Yes. It is the,Spirit that converts. The arguing/debating just pushes the Spirit away. That doesn't mean we cant have conversation or discuss history, but we can so easily turn that to debate so we need to be very careful. I find any time when my intention is to show I am right rather than the welfare of the other person I have lost the Spirit. All it takes is one little comment sometimes and my mind can be flipped towards me coming out ahead. I find for some reason it is much easier to have the other person in mind when they have never been LDS rather than those who are or have been at one time. 

It's iteresting. Lately I have heard a lot of grumbling about the gospel mentioned at funerals. Perhaps it is because the Spirit is easier to feel there and these grumblers don't want to feel it?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Yes. It is the,Spirit that converts. The arguing/debating just pushes the Spirit away. That doesn't mean we cant have conversation or discuss history, but we can so easily turn that to debate so we need to be very careful. I find any time when my intention is to show I am right rather than the welfare of the other person I have lost the Spirit. All it takes is one little comment sometimes and my mind can be flipped towards me coming out ahead. I find for some reason it is much easier to have the other person in mind when they have never been LDS rather than those who are or have been at one time. 

It's iteresting. Lately I have heard a lot of grumbling about the gospel mentioned at funerals. Perhaps it is because the Spirit is easier to feel there and these grumblers don't want to feel it?

Much of what you say here is true, Rain.  Trouble is that some of us like to debate the intellectual issues.  For those who don't, it can get their backs up, and even infuriate them.  They prefer to make a negative declaration and have done with it.  However, when someone throws down the gauntlet on this board, I believe that they are giving all of us permission to discuss the matter in whatever way we wish -- hopefully with mutual respect and some attention to real sources and logic.  On this board, testimony-bearing just isn't adequate.  However, frank exchange of views just might be.  No one is forced to be here, and this board is pretty tame as blogs go.

bdouglas' account of the funeral and its effects is profound and revealing of the limits of debate and argument.  The Arabs have a saying that "you can lead a donkey to the gates of Paradise, but you can't make him enter."  The same applies to apologetics:  Even the best and most thoroughgoing of apologetic arguments cannot convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced.  I think that a good deal of the anger against apologists is a result of emotion rather than reason.  The anti-Mormons desperately want to be right (just as much as the pro-Mormons), and are deeply fearful of finding out that they are wrong.  Religion and anti-religion cannot be based on fear.  Only love endures.  That is what the funeral of bd's grandma teaches us.

[Jeanne]

Love and family.  There is a universal truth and understanding there that no argument can win against.  Thank you for sharing a very personal and loving experience.

Jeanne

[BCSpace]

Debates are not for the person one is debating with.  They are for any audience who can see or hear.  It's for inoculation and to peak the interest of those who will come to you privately later because they sense you have answers.  It's also to test your knowledge, opinions, and testimony.  Can they withstand the heat?

[RevTestament]

I have found debates with family to be fairly useless - they usually become heated. I might make a point or two, but I stop at debate.

I have found friendly or well-controlled debates online in forums such as this can reach people. People come to forums like this because they want to read and learn about religious issues. 

Religious discussion in social settings is often/usually taboo. However, no one can stop you from bringing the Spirit with you....

[carbon dioxide]

Here is the way I look at it.  Think of a jury trial that ends in a hung jury.  The same people hear the exact same evidence and testimony but come to different conclusions.  How can that be?  It is because we are all individuals who think differently, have different life experiences ect.  What might be evidence to one person is not to another.  Same is with the Church and the gospel.  What might be evidence that Joseph Smith was a fraud or con man to person A, person B might call that evidence to be petty and meaningless.  Proof that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God to person B might not be much evidence at all to person A.  We were not put on this life to have things proven to us.  We all accomplished that ability in our first estate.  It takes little talent, ability, ect to believe something when it is staring at you in the face.  We are here to achieve a higher standard or ability.  To live by faith.  To live by the spirit.  To believe something that is correct even it if might not make sense.  Even if it goes counter to our thinking or out understanding.  Debating can be fun, give us an ego trip, make us feel good about ourselves and our abilities but its pretty much selfish.  It the spirit that converts.  It can do more in 5 minutes than we can do in arguing for years.

[bdouglas]

If you can figure out why someone left in the first place, you are better placed to bring him/her back. This isn't easy because people won't tell you why they really left. In my brother's case, he would've said some of Joseph Smith's marriages, the B of A, lack of archaeological evidence for BOM. Maybe a couple of other issues. But is that why he really left? The reasons were complex, I suppose, but I don't think he really left over what he said he left over. Which is funny to me now, when I think of all of the effort I spent with him over these issues.

 

 

[The Nehor]

If debates were always won by the side of right there might be some point.