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Gender Neutral Bathrooms in Provo High


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On 5/4/2016 at 0:57 PM, rockpond said:

These are in addition to the regular gender-specific restrooms at the school.  Gender neutral restrooms are actually quite common in America, and no one seems to have raised a ruckus about them.  Most are for use by one person at a time.

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On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 0:36 PM, bluebell said:

Gender neutral bathrooms are a great idea because they are a compromise that gives everyone some of what they want.  I really don't understand those people who claim that gender neutral bathrooms are the same thing as segregation and that they ONLY option is to allow transgendered people to use the gendered bathroom that they want to use.

 

I'm not sure that people are saying that the only option should be that transgendered people use the bathroom they want to use.  I think that's a simplification.  What's being said, what's included in the new federal guidance/interpretation, and what's in California's law, is not that a transgendered person can use whatever bathroom he or she wants, but that person should be treated by the school, in all aspects of the educational institution, consistent with that person's gender identity and/or gender expression. 

(As I understand it, "gender identity" is an individual's internal sense of being male, female, or something else.  This can vary from the sex that person was assigned at birth based on biological/chromosomal characteristics.  "Gender expression" is a related but different concept, and is how a person represents or expresses one's gender identity to others, often through behavior, clothing, hairstyle, etc.)

Gender identity in the vast majority of cases matches, at least closely, with the assigned sex at birth.  But sometimes it does not.  If an individual identifies as female, for example, the guidelines/interpretation (as well as California law), require the school to treat that person in all aspects of the educational experience in a way that is consistent with that identify.  Bathrooms are one aspect of this, any while a gender neutral bathroom may be a compromise for some, I can see how for others it not be sufficient for others to the extent that there are also still men's and women's room -- a men's room would still be off limits to some individual's whose gender identity is male.

I understand concerns about privacy.  But I dismiss the concerns about this being abused by sexual predator.  That's alarmist about something that is simply not going to happen

 

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35 minutes ago, toon said:

I understand concerns about privacy.  But I dismiss the concerns about this being abused by sexual predator.  That's alarmist about something that is simply not going to happen

 

That's a pretty bold statement... you know this how?  We'll see...

GG

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12 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

And with a lock on the door...like my local market, and my auto dealership when I take my car in for service.  I don't have a problem with gender neutral restrooms as described by RFS... but am absolutely opposed to restrooms/lockerooms where a man/woman can use whichever one they "feel" they want to... a man who comes into the ladies' room when I'm in there will very likely get maced... or at least asked to wait outside till I was finished because it is my right to "feel" comfortable as a woman in the woman's room ... how do I know who he is.. anyone can stand there and tell me he "feels" like a woman so he belongs there... Yeah, right... 

GG

GG, your post shows the stupidity of the entire transgender issue.  Your right to privacy must be denied so that this extremely small subset's rights are "respected".  Everyone must put aside their rights so this sacred cow is worshiped and acknowledged as having superior rights to every other human.  

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50 minutes ago, toon said:

 

I understand concerns about privacy.  But I dismiss the concerns about this being abused by sexual predator.  That's alarmist about something that is simply not going to happen

 

 

It's already happening.  I saw a case of a man exposing himself in a sauna, and no one would do anything because he claimed to be transgender.  Having an adult or adolescent male in what is supposed to be a safe, private space for females is emotional abuse by itself, especially if she is already a victim of sexual abuse.

Personally, I feel that if a male has the delusion of being female and has not been surgically altered yet, he needs to one, keep the boy bits covered, and two, look at least as feminine as the average member of a boy band.

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

That's a pretty bold statement... you know this how?  We'll see...

GG

It's really not that bold of a statement.

It's been the law in California for the last few years, and the sky has not yet fallen.  So to some extent, "we've seen."

Further, it requires that the individual identify, and the school recognize that student's identity, in all aspects of the educational experience.  If a student (as we're only talking about students here) wants to pretend to be of the opposite sex so that he (I'm using that pronoun out of convenience) can enter a bathroom and do whatever you imagine he'd do, he'd also openly identify as female in all other aspects (not just which restroom he uses), and the school would have to treat him as such.  Is it outside the realm of possibility that someone would go to such lengths just to get a brief glimpse of someone in a bathroom or locker room?  No.  But is it something to be concerned about?  Also no.

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11 minutes ago, Traela said:

 

It's already happening.  I saw a case of a man exposing himself in a sauna, and no one would do anything because he claimed to be transgender.  Having an adult or adolescent male in what is supposed to be a safe, private space for females is emotional abuse by itself, especially if she is already a victim of sexual abuse.

Personally, I feel that if a male has the delusion of being female and has not been surgically altered yet, he needs to one, keep the boy bits covered, and two, look at least as feminine as the average member of a boy band.

CFR on the first point.  Please.

While there have been plenty of cases of men sneaking into women's restrooms for illicit purposes, I'm not aware of any evidence of anyone using the legal protections afforded to transgendered individuals, in those few places where they exist, to get away with illicit conduct.

On the second point, are you really comfortable calling it a "delusion?"

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1 hour ago, toon said:

I'm not sure that people are saying that the only option should be that transgendered people use the bathroom they want to use.  I think that's a simplification.  What's being said, what's included in the new federal guidance/interpretation, and what's in California's law, is not that a transgendered person can use whatever bathroom he or she wants, but that person should be treated by the school, in all aspects of the educational institution, consistent with that person's gender identity and/or gender expression.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between being able to use the bathroom that one chooses and being able to use the bathroom that is consistent with your chosen gender.  Can you explain what you mean?

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2 hours ago, toon said:

...............................................

I understand concerns about privacy.  But I dismiss the concerns about this being abused by sexual predator.  That's alarmist about something that is simply not going to happen

Hopefully.  However, the real world frequently intrudes on our hopeful natures.

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1 hour ago, toon said:

CFR on the first point.  Please.

While there have been plenty of cases of men sneaking into women's restrooms for illicit purposes, I'm not aware of any evidence of anyone using the legal protections afforded to transgendered individuals, in those few places where they exist, to get away with illicit conduct.

On the second point, are you really comfortable calling it a "delusion?"

I would have to track down the article that linked it.  

On the second point, if the person has XY chromosomes and was born with the matching genitalia, then believing he is female is all in his mind. So yes, I am comfortable calling it a delusion.  Or a mental illness.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

And with a lock on the door...like my local market, and my auto dealership when I take my car in for service.  I don't have a problem with gender neutral restrooms as described by RFS... but am absolutely opposed to restrooms/lockerooms where a man/woman can use whichever one they "feel" they want to... a man who comes into the ladies' room when I'm in there will very likely get maced... or at least asked to wait outside till I was finished because it is my right to "feel" comfortable as a woman in the woman's room ... how do I know who he is.. anyone can stand there and tell me he "feels" like a woman so he belongs there... Yeah, right... 

GG

Sounds like the basic plot for a skit on SNL.

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2 hours ago, toon said:

It's really not that bold of a statement.

It's been the law in California for the last few years, and the sky has not yet fallen.  So to some extent, "we've seen."

Further, it requires that the individual identify, and the school recognize that student's identity, in all aspects of the educational experience.  If a student (as we're only talking about students here) wants to pretend to be of the opposite sex so that he (I'm using that pronoun out of convenience) can enter a bathroom and do whatever you imagine he'd do, he'd also openly identify as female in all other aspects (not just which restroom he uses), and the school would have to treat him as such.  Is it outside the realm of possibility that someone would go to such lengths just to get a brief glimpse of someone in a bathroom or locker room?  No.  But is it something to be concerned about?  Also no.

If what you say is true and the individual is perceived as a girl, then what is the need for a law or anything else.  The individual would just walk into the girls bathroom and no one would be the wiser.  Obviously, the boy is not as feminine as he or you thinks or something else is amiss.  

So why should everyone else perceive discomfort and feel unsafe so the individual can do as he pleases?

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1 hour ago, toon said:

It's really not that bold of a statement.

It's been the law in California for the last few years, and the sky has not yet fallen.  So to some extent, "we've seen."

Further, it requires that the individual identify, and the school recognize that student's identity, in all aspects of the educational experience.  If a student (as we're only talking about students here) wants to pretend to be of the opposite sex so that he (I'm using that pronoun out of convenience) can enter a bathroom and do whatever you imagine he'd do, he'd also openly identify as female in all other aspects (not just which restroom he uses), and the school would have to treat him as such.  Is it outside the realm of possibility that someone would go to such lengths just to get a brief glimpse of someone in a bathroom or locker room?  No.  But is it something to be concerned about?  Also no.

My post was referring to general population, not students only... but since you're referring to students, under the Calif law, what happens if a boy has been behaving as a female and decides since he feels comfortable as a female he should use the girl's shower room after gym class?  You can dismiss this idea... but in today's environment I can see someone "testing" the waters, particularly since you indicate above that a student can "pretend" to be of the opposite sex.  This is all PC nonsense...

GG

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On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 3:45 PM, bluebell said:

I'm not sure I understand the difference between being able to use the bathroom that one chooses and being able to use the bathroom that is consistent with your chosen gender.  Can you explain what you mean?

I believe the difference is that it's not a matter of choice.

First, gender identity is not something considered a matter of choice.  While there's certainly a significant subjective element, how one identifies is not something that is chosen.  It generally is what it is.

Under the proposed interpretation (and CA law), the student uses the restroom that matches his or her gender identity.  If your gender identity is female (and expressed openly as such), then you must use the women's restroom.  That person doesn't get to choose between two options.

I agree there's an element of choice in whether an individual wants to openly express their inner gender identity.  But I think that's as far as choice goes.

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On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 6:09 PM, Garden Girl said:

My post was referring to general population, not students only... but since you're referring to students, under the Calif law, what happens if a boy has been behaving as a female and decides since he feels comfortable as a female he should use the girl's shower room after gym class?  You can dismiss this idea... but in today's environment I can see someone "testing" the waters, particularly since you indicate above that a student can "pretend" to be of the opposite sex.  This is all PC nonsense...

GG

The federal guidance on this only applies in the educational context, not to the general population.  But I agree that hat doesn't mean that the concepts don't apply there too.

A student that is "pretending" is in violation of the law and is not covered by the protections at issue.  And you don't just get to "pretend" from time to time -- if a student identifies with one gender, to the point where that student wants to be treated as that gender, then that student must be treated as that gender in all aspects of the educational experience.  One can't say I feel like a women when using the restroom but I want to be treated like a male elsewhere.  And one can't say, I feel like a female today, but not yesterday or tomorrow.

I get that it's controversial, and I get that it doesn't seem right.  But I think that there should be a greater understanding to understand the issues before declaring it as PC nonsense.

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On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 5:19 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Hopefully.  However, the real world frequently intrudes on our hopeful natures.

Would you have to cite an example of this.  And by example, you can't just refer to some news report of a man entering a women's restroom for illicit purposes.  You have to also show a connection between that behavior and legal protections afforded to transgendered people in those very few jurisdictions where such legal protections exist.

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3 minutes ago, toon said:

The federal guidance on this only applies in the educational context, not to the general population.  But I agree that hat doesn't mean that the concepts don't apply there too.

A student that is "pretending" is in violation of the law and is not covered by the protections at issue.  And you don't just get to "pretend" from time to time -- if a student identifies with one gender, to the point where that student wants to be treated as that gender, then that student must be treated as that gender in all aspects of the educational experience.  One can't say I feel like a women when using the restroom but I want to be treated like a male elsewhere.  And one can't say, I feel like a female today, but not yesterday or tomorrow.

I get that it's controversial, and I get that it doesn't seem right.  But I think that there should be a greater understanding to understand the issues before declaring it as PC nonsense.

What law is a student violating when (s)he pretends to be transgender.  CFR.  

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17 minutes ago, toon said:

Would you have to cite an example of this.  And by example, you can't just refer to some news report of a man entering a women's restroom for illicit purposes.  You have to also show a connection between that behavior and legal protections afforded to transgendered people in those very few jurisdictions where such legal protections exist.

You said: " I understand concerns about privacy.  But I dismiss the concerns about this being abused by sexual predator.  That's alarmist about something that is simply not going to happen "

I was responding to that naive statement, and I was hopeful that there would be no problems.  However, only someone out of touch with reality would suggest that there are no sexual predators out there, or that they would not try take advantage of legal rules.

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43 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

What law is a student violating when (s)he pretends to be transgender.  CFR.  

I suspect that there is no law that they violate when they merely pretend to be transgender.  However, if by pretending to be transgender, someone enters into a restroom in order to spy on someone (or assault), then that's what is unlawful.  No different than any other sexual assault or "peeping Tom" type case.

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29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You said: " I understand concerns about privacy.  But I dismiss the concerns about this being abused by sexual predator.  That's alarmist about something that is simply not going to happen "

I was responding to that naive statement, and I was hopeful that there would be no problems.  However, only someone out of touch with reality would suggest that there are no sexual predators out there, or that they would not try take advantage of legal rules.

I will clarify.  I'm probably wrong that it is something that is "not going to happen."  There is certainly that possibility.  (Yes, I used "certainly" and "possibility" in the same sentence.)  But it's not a risk that I am concerned about.  At least not a sufficient risk that it should impact policy considerations.

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1 hour ago, toon said:

I agree there's an element of choice in whether an individual wants to openly express their inner gender identity.  But I think that's as far as choice goes.

Leaving everything else you said a side, that's the choice i was referring to. :)

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