Scott Lloyd Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: I am not disagreeing at all- I am just wondering if this amounts to a hill of beans outside of the Salt Lake valley. This forum not surprisingly is very Salt Lake-Centric. For those outside, in the "mission field" which includes the entire world outside of Utah,( several more than 3 million people) it gets a tad old discussing local issues. Who is running for dog catcher?? I am just arguing that small town politics probably doesn't fit on a religious discussion forum about a church which is trying desperately to become world wide. The larger LA area has 18 million people and the population of CA is 38 million. Not that size matters, of course. But good for SLC. It has many advantages over big cities including two competing newspapers. I am just complaining because I think we should be thinking about a wider audience around here The Deseret News is a major property of and major voice for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and has been since 1850. The dynamics attending to the continuation and vitality of the newspaper in the headquarters locale of the Church ought to be of interest to any member of the Church wanting to see the Church succeed in its mission, as with any substantial business enterprise or ecclesiastical endeavor owned or run by the Church. By comparison, I'm interested in the Polynesian Cultural Center or the BYU Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies, even though I don't have any geographical proximity to either of those entities. I'm interested in any new temple that the Church constructs, even those that are located far away from where I live. Edited April 21, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
hope_for_things Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I haven't done any close comparisons, but I'd say the Deseret News coverage has been substantial and timely. Aren't you a little biased. Just sayin.... :-) 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Aren't you a little biased. Just sayin.... :-) Bias is in the eye of the beholder. From what I've observed over the years, those who complain about the level of coverage in the Deseret News of this or that thing by and large have not really acquainted themselves very well with what coverage there has been. As I said, I'm not criticizing the coverage of this issue in the Tribune; I'm not even very well acquainted with it, so I can't really draw a comparison. But speaking as one with a professional eye, I say the coverage in the Deseret News has been substantial, balanced and accurate, as far as I can tell. Edited April 21, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
hope_for_things Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Bias is in the eye of the beholder. From what I've observed over the years, those who complain about coverage in the Deseret News of this or that thing by and large have not really acquainted themselves very well with what coverage there has been. As I said, I'm not criticizing the coverage of this issue in the Tribune; I'm not even very well acquainted with it, so I can't really draw a comparison. But speaking as one with a professional eye, I say the coverage in the Deseret News has been substantial, balanced and accurate, as far as I can tell. The distinction is that the Tribune has been a catalyst on this issue, and the Des News has only reported about it secondarily. I don't recall ever seeing the Des News be a catalyst for something that is remotely critical of the church or BYU. I wouldn't expect them to, because they are owned by the institution and therefore have a vested interest in protecting their owner, where the Trib can be more objective in cases like this. The founding fathers saw one of the primary purposes of a free press is to hold the government and large institutions accountable. If the press is owned by a particular institution, you won't find that independent accountability taking place. I'm grateful for the Des News as they provide a counter perspective to the SLTrib as well. I agree with the sentiments of your earlier comment that we need both to have a healthy dialogue in Utah. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: The distinction is that the Tribune has been a catalyst on this issue, and the Des News has only reported about it secondarily. I don't recall ever seeing the Des News be a catalyst for something that is remotely critical of the church or BYU. I wouldn't expect them to, because they are owned by the institution and therefore have a vested interest in protecting their owner, where the Trib can be more objective in cases like this. The founding fathers saw one of the primary purposes of a free press is to hold the government and large institutions accountable. If the press is owned by a particular institution, you won't find that independent accountability taking place. I'm grateful for the Des News as they provide a counter perspective to the SLTrib as well. I agree with the sentiments of your earlier comment that we need both to have a healthy dialogue in Utah. The Tribune has its sacred cows as well. It may not be a matter of ownership, but the Tribune historically has seen itself as beholden to a market niche that mistrusts -- if not outright hates -- the Church of Jesus Christ. So its content will accordingly be colored by how it views its core constituency. Prudent consumers of mass-media information will recognize this fact. As a side note, on a matter that is not in any way related to Mormons or Mormonism but has significance to me as a local reader, the Deseret News (and its sister organization, KSL-TV) has been far more vigorous and aggressive than the Tribune in coverage of controversies relating to the school district where I live. So the Tribune is not necessarily the pacesetter in coverage of local issues and politics. Edited April 21, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 2
Robert F. Smith Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I am not disagreeing at all- I am just wondering if this amounts to a hill of beans outside of the Salt Lake valley. This forum not surprisingly is very Salt Lake-Centric. For those outside, in the "mission field" which includes the entire world outside of Utah,( several more than 3 million people) it gets a tad old discussing local issues. Who is running for dog catcher?? I am just arguing that small town politics probably doesn't fit on a religious discussion forum about a church which is trying desperately to become world wide. The larger LA area has 18 million people and the population of CA is 38 million. Not that size matters, of course. But good for SLC. It has many advantages over big cities including two competing newspapers. I am just complaining because I think we should be thinking about a wider audience around here Granted, but bear in mind, Mark, that this is a town in which the Church owns the Deseret News, and needs to be seen as willing to tolerate opposition in its midst -- the reason why the Brethren have been so kind to other local churches, such as represented by the Cathedral of the Madeleine, or by Westminster College, etc. What is done locally tells us what sort of Church we belong to globally. 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 I miss my Boston papers. I just read USA Today. 1
mfbukowski Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Deseret News is a major property of and major voice for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and has been since 1850. The dynamics attending to the continuation and vitality of the newspaper in the headquarters locale of the Church ought to be of interest to any member of the Church wanting to see the Church succeed in its mission, as with any substantial business enterprise or ecclesiastical endeavor owned or run by the Church. By comparison, I'm interested in the Polynesian Cultural Center or the BYU Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies, even though I don't have any geographical proximity to either of those entities. I'm interested in any new temple that the Church constructs, even those that are located far away from where I live. Oh come on Scott! Of course I want church investments to succeed but I don't want to talk about them on a religious discussion board I think you missed the point, not to mention that you are just a little too close to the issue I think to see the forest for the trees. It's a newspaper for Pete's sake. I mean we could discuss certain safe strategies for non profits investing in hedge funds- but here? Edited April 22, 2016 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Granted, but bear in mind, Mark, that this is a town in which the Church owns the Deseret News, and needs to be seen as willing to tolerate opposition in its midst -- the reason why the Brethren have been so kind to other local churches, such as represented by the Cathedral of the Madeleine, or by Westminster College, etc. What is done locally tells us what sort of Church we belong to globally. It does. Wake me up when there is something about philosophy or religion to discuss.
Kenngo1969 Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 11 hours ago, hope_for_things said: The distinction is that the Tribune has been a catalyst on this issue, and the Des News has only reported about it secondarily. I don't recall ever seeing the Des News be a catalyst for something that is remotely critical of the church or BYU. I wouldn't expect them to, because they are owned by the institution and therefore have a vested interest in protecting their owner, where the Trib can be more objective in cases like this. ... Every news/media outlet, let alone every newspaper, is owned by somebody, which creates the potential for that news outlet to have a blind spot as regards negative news about its owner. Aren't you engaging in a form of special pleading when you assert, essentially, that this problem is especially acute at KSL/The Deseret News while downplaying or discounting the possibility that it exists in other news outlets, as well? And it wasn't reporters at The Deseret News or KSL who were fired (along with their editor) after selling information about Elizabeth Smart's abduction that, at best was based on rumor and innuendo (and at worst was simply outright false) to The National Enquirer. I wouldn't blame anybody with whom the Tribune lost credibility permanently after that lovely little episode. Just sayin'! 1
hope_for_things Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Every news/media outlet, let alone every newspaper, is owned by somebody, which creates the potential for that news outlet to have a blind spot as regards negative news about its owner. Aren't you engaging in a form of special pleading when you assert, essentially, that this problem is especially acute at KSL/The Deseret News while downplaying or discounting the possibility that it exists in other news outlets, as well? And it wasn't reporters at The Deseret News or KSL who were fired (along with their editor) after selling information about Elizabeth Smart's abduction that, at best was based on rumor and innuendo (and at worst was simply outright false) to The National Enquirer. I wouldn't blame anybody with whom the Tribune lost credibility permanently after that lovely little episode. Just sayin'! I'm stating the obvious about Des News/KSL, that they can't be objectively critical of BYU or the LDS church because they are owned by the LDS church. Are you disagreeing with that and claiming that the LDS church ownership of those media outlets has no influence on their objectivity? As for your Elisabeth Smart example, thats a red herring, and I never claimed the SLTrib was a perfect newspaper. I said I'm glad we have both outlets to give different perspectives on local issues. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: I'm stating the obvious about Des News/KSL, that they can't be objectively critical of BYU or the LDS church because they are owned by the LDS church. Are you disagreeing with that and claiming that the LDS church ownership of those media outlets has no influence on their objectivity? As for your Elisabeth Smart example, thats a red herring, and I never claimed the SLTrib was a perfect newspaper. I said I'm glad we have both outlets to give different perspectives on local issues. If you need to re-read what I wrote, by all means, do so. It's clear on its face and stands on its own. As for your accusation that my Elizabeth Smart example allegedly is a red herring, I thought we were talking about the credibility of news outlets. The willingness of reporters, for a price, to pass along unsubstantiated rumor and gossip that they've uncovered in the course of covering a story does seem germane to that issue. If you don't think so, to each, his own. You seem to think that The Deseret News and KSL are in a class by themselves when it comes to whether they have the freedom to call it as they see it with respect to newsworthy items affecting their owners or affecting other institutions which also are owned by their owners, or whether extraneous factors (such as, but not necessarily limited to, who owns them) might play a role in what they cover and how they cover it. Granting for the sake of discussion, without so conceding, that The Deseret News and KSL might have a problem covering, e.g., the recent BYU Honor Code/rape controversy, I simply pointed out that even if that is true, KSL and The Deseret News hardly are unique in that regard. (And Scott has provided evidence, or at least put forth the argument, that, in fact, there is no appreciabledifference in how they are covering the contraversy vis-a-vis how the Trib is covering it.) If you disagree, that's fine. Vive le difference! Edited April 22, 2016 by Kenngo1969 1
Kenngo1969 Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, Kenngo1969 said: Burp! I remember the good old days, when silly things like this didn't happen with the old Board software, or at least, when they did, they were easier to correct! Edited April 22, 2016 by Kenngo1969
Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Oh come on Scott! Of course I want church investments to succeed but I don't want to talk about them on a religious discussion board I think you missed the point, not to mention that you are just a little too close to the issue I think to see the forest for the trees. It's a newspaper for Pete's sake. I mean we could discuss certain safe strategies for non profits investing in hedge funds- but here? You think I'm not seeing the forest for the trees; I think you are being myopic and provincial in failing to recognize how ownership of a newspaper in its headquarters community fits into the structure of keeping the Church of Jesus Christ strong and viable as it fulfills its mission in the latter days to prepare the world for the Second Coming of Christ. So there we are. I hope at the end of the day you and I can still say we have mutual love and respect. Quote Wake me up when there is something about philosophy or religion to discuss. One of the virtues of this message board is that we are free to not comment in -- or even read -- threads that do not interest us. Edited April 22, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: I'm stating the obvious about Des News/KSL, that they can't be objectively critical of BYU or the LDS church because they are owned by the LDS church. Are you disagreeing with that and claiming that the LDS church ownership of those media outlets has no influence on their objectivity? What is the important thing: being "objectively critical" or being fair, balanced and accurate? While the Tribune might be more prone than the Deseret News to pursue stories about Mormonism with an attack-dog mentality, I don't see that as necessarily a good thing. I alluded to this earlier, but many people err in concluding in advance that the Deseret News is unable to cover issues pertaining to Mormonism with professionalism without actually examining and fairly evaluating what the newspaper has done/is doing. My assertion is based on a lifetime of personal observation of the output of both newspapers and of conversations with acquaintances. Edited April 22, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
hope_for_things Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 35 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: If you need to re-read what I wrote, by all means, do so. It's clear on its face and stands on its own. As for your accusation that my Elizabeth Smart example allegedly is a red herring, I thought we were talking about the credibility of news outlets. The willingness of reporters, for a price, to pass along unsubstantiated rumor and gossip that they've uncovered in the course of covering a story does seem germane to that issue. If you don't think so, to each, his own. You seem to think that The Deseret News and KSL are in a class by themselves when it comes to whether they have the freedom to call it as they see it with respect to newsworthy items affecting their owners or affecting other institutions which also are owned by their owners, or whether extraneous factors (such as, but not necessarily limited to, who owns them) might play a role in what they cover and how they cover it. Granting for the sake of discussion, without so conceding, that The Deseret News and KSL might have a problem covering, e.g., the recent BYU Honor Code/rape controversy, I simply pointed out that even if that is true, KSL and The Deseret News hardly are unique in that regard. (And Scott has provided evidence, or at least put forth the argument, that, in fact, there is no appreciabledifference in how they are covering the contraversy vis-a-vis how the Trib is covering it.) If you disagree, that's fine. Vive le difference! Scott has provided no "evidence" to support his claim, only his opinion. The Des News is a fine newspaper, I have subscribed to it in the past and I like both papers. The Des News is biased towards the church and BYU, that is apparent, obvious, understandable and incontrovertible. Other papers have different biases, this is true, but not material to my point about the Honor code story and the Des News. I grant you that bad reporters exist and unethical behavior is happening all over the place, no institution is immune to this. 1
mfbukowski Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 34 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You think I'm not seeing the forest for the trees; I think you are being myopic and provincial in failing to recognize how ownership of a newspaper in its headquarters community fits into the structure of keeping the Church of Jesus Christ strong and viable as it fulfills its mission in the latter days to prepare the world for the Second Coming of Christ. So there we are. I hope at the end of the day you and I can still say we have mutual love and respect. One of the virtues of this message board is that we are free to not comment in -- or even read -- threads that do not interest us. Scott of course we still have mutual love and respect. I had no idea that this might cause you to doubt it. I apologize for any offense, and will take your advice! I was just babbling anyway.
mfbukowski Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: I'm stating the obvious about Des News/KSL, that they can't be objectively critical of BYU or the LDS church because they are owned by the LDS church. Are you disagreeing with that and claiming that the LDS church ownership of those media outlets has no influence on their objectivity? As for your Elisabeth Smart example, thats a red herring, and I never claimed the SLTrib was a perfect newspaper. I said I'm glad we have both outlets to give different perspectives on local issues. I retain the belief that objectivity is in the eye of the beholder. Have a fun thread!
Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Scott of course we still have mutual love and respect. I had no idea that this might cause you to doubt it. I apologize for any offense, and will take your advice! I was just babbling anyway. No offense taken. You took my comment more seriously than I intended it, and for that I take full blame. 1
hope_for_things Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: What is the important thing: being "objectively critical" or being fair, balanced and accurate? I alluded to this earlier, but many people err in concluding in advance that the Deseret News is unable to cover issues pertaining to Mormonism with professionalism without actually examining and evaluating what the newspaper has done/is doing. My assertion is based on a lifetime of personal observation of the output of both newspapers and of conversations with acquaintances. Both objectivity and fairness are important things. The Deseret News is incapable of complete objectivity on these issues. I agree that they can be professional, but that's a different measurement. I think that its impossible for a news outlet that is owned by an institution to be 100% objective about news impacting that institution. Its not a slight on the Des News or the church, I'm just pointing out what I thought was obvious. Now I'm wondering why I've spent time debating what is obvious.... Ugh... This is one of those moments where I get frustrated with myself.
provoman Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 smac would you be willing to put the JOA info in your opening post.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 12 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Scott has provided no "evidence" to support his claim, only his opinion. The beauty of living in an age of online newspaper archives is that such "evidence" is only a Google search away. 1
hope_for_things Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The beauty of living in an age of online newspaper archives is that such "evidence" is only a Google search away. Wait, I thought Google searches were dangerous to faith and to be avoided? :-)
Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: If you need to re-read what I wrote, by all means, do so. It's clear on its face and stands on its own. As for your accusation that my Elizabeth Smart example allegedly is a red herring, I thought we were talking about the credibility of news outlets. The willingness of reporters, for a price, to pass along unsubstantiated rumor and gossip that they've uncovered in the course of covering a story does seem germane to that issue. If you don't think so, to each, his own. I don't know what bothered me more about that incident: the actions of the two reporters or the readiness of their editor to try to circle the wagons around them. To their credit, many of the Trib staffers immediately rose up to say what had transpired was not OK with them. This helped lead to the firing of the reporters and the pressured resignation of the editor. But I found the whole thing indicative of a troubling culture that had existed at the newspaper for a long time. Edited April 22, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
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