Vance Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 50 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: The leafs have to be thin and numerous enough to record the BOM and other literature that was not translated. True, but it doesn't change the falseness of your assumptions. Quote I will stick to the 200 lbs estimate because it makes allowances for some loss of weight due to alloying and engraving. Of course you will. The first quote in my signature line applies. Quote The plates were not even used in the translation process (peepstone in hat). Initially the were. Still, it doesn't change the falseness of your assumptions. It is interesting that you accept the sources for the dimensions but then disregard them for everything else. Is it because the shoot holes in your (anti-Mormon) agenda?
Jim Stiles Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 34 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Actually, it might be kinda fun to make a set of tumbaga plates and engrave the text of the Book of Mormon onto them. Not sure what the best characters would be for it, since we really don't know a lot about them. Maybe take a Hebrew translation of the BoM, and transcribe it into either Demotic or Coptic characters. Early Demotic was in vogue at the time Lehi left Jerusalem, but Coptic was a derivative of Demotic (mixed with Greek), and thus perhaps in spirit, at least, related to the Nephite "reformed Egyptian". Be a bit expensive, though. You could make it out of 100% copper and infer the weight of gold plates or tumbaga plates by the ratio of the specific gravities. I have heard the 200+ lbs figure posited as the weight of minimum thickness 24 carat gold plates with the English translation of the BOM engraved.
Vance Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 44 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostatic_union Feel free to show me "hypostatic" in the Bible.
UtahTexan Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, Vance said: Feel free to show me "hypostatic" in the Bible. Good luck with that...he has dodged every one of my questions and requests for cites
Vance Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 39 minutes ago, cdowis said: Actually you can read the record of several individuals who actually hefted the plates, that they weighed between 40-50 pounds. Emma writes that the plates lay on a table and she moved them around while dusting. This is unlikely if they were 100- 200 pounds in weight. Note that the witnesses said that the plates " have the appearance of gold ". They knew this was not pure gold, but an alloy. There is no need for speculation but a matter of the historical record. There you go again, trying to derail his agenda with facts. 1
Jim Stiles Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 6 minutes ago, Vance said: True, but it doesn't change the falseness of your assumptions. Of course you will. The first quote in my signature line applies. Initially the were. Still, it doesn't change the falseness of your assumptions. It is interesting that you accept the sources for the dimensions but then disregard them for everything else. Is it because the shoot holes in your (anti-Mormon) agenda? Why don't you make an estimate for the weight based upon stated dimensions and known densities of the possible materials (gold and copper)? Are you afraid to put Joseph Smith Jr. to the test?
UtahTexan Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Why don't you make an estimate for the weight based upon stated dimensions and known densities of the possible materials (gold and copper)? Are you afraid to put Joseph Smith Jr. to the test? No need to estimate since we have the word of several people who actually felt them....or are you simply oblivious to facts and what has been posted because it ruins your agenda? Still waiting for responses to all you fearfully dodge......
Jim Stiles Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: Jim, I have stayed out of this little soap box you have going, but you mentioned that the Bible is inerrant. Is that what you actually mean or was that just hyperbole? Another answer would be helpful; are you a Catholic or an Evangelical? I just want to be clear should I enter into these roiling waters. I am a traditional Calvinist Presbyterian. I will start a new folder for Golden Plates properties. 2
Vance Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 37 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Works salvation is preached everywhere in the LDS faith, even in this forum. Another anti-Mormon falsehood. Quote Grace plus works is works salvation. Another falsehood. Quote The web site is criticizing the cartoon for saying that LDS members are told that they can work their way (with grace after all they can do) into the celestial kingdom and become gods. Well, just keep beating that strawman. Quote Ed Decker calls the LDS church the Godmakers because they have invented a God who is a Godmaker. Right, because we all know that YOUR God is impotent because the way you have defined him makes him INCAPABLE of creating another God like unto himself.
Steve Noel Posted April 12, 2016 Author Posted April 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: I am a traditional Calvinist Presbyterian. I will start a new folder for Golden Plates properties. Thank you 1
Vance Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: So, you couldn't produce a verse with three "persons" or one "essence". Duly noted. Edited April 12, 2016 by Vance
Vance Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 25 minutes ago, Calm said: Guys, be nice to Steve and take it elsewhere before the mods turn up (yes, I reported the offtopic stuff...Steve is trying hard to focus on one topic and that should be respected). Steve asked what an anti-Mormon was. Then one showed up. He gets to see one in action. 2
Vance Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 10 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: I am a traditional Calvinist Presbyterian. I will start a new folder for Golden Plates properties. Most of the really nasty anti-Mormons I have run into were Calvinists. I wonder why that is.
Stargazer Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 57 minutes ago, Vance said: Not if you alloy it with zinc and antimony, but that would significantly reduce the density. Which is part of the Q.E.D. ("quod erat demonstrandum"). Emphasis added.
Stargazer Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 6 minutes ago, Vance said: Steve asked what an anti-Mormon was. Then one showed up. He gets to see one in action. Jim was certainly very cooperative in that regard, then, wasn't he? 1
Steve Noel Posted April 12, 2016 Author Posted April 12, 2016 11 minutes ago, Vance said: Steve asked what an anti-Mormon was. Then one showed up. He gets to see one in action. 4 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Jim was certainly very cooperative in that regard, then, wasn't he? 19 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Still waiting for him to stop dodging me Jim has moved this argument to a new thread HERE 1
Nemesis Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 Ok seems like this thread is getting back on topic, let's keep it on topic or we will start thread banning. nemesis
Scott Lloyd Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: I also posted the transcript of a print interview with Hinckley where he said exactly what I remembered him saying. A and thereby showed that you either misunderstood or distorted the context and thus perpetuated a false anti-Mormon accusation. You engaged in sophistry. How long will you carry forward this charade? It's the anti-Mormon MO. Repeat refuted attacks, pretending they have not been refuted. 3
Jim Stiles Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 29 minutes ago, Vance said: Most of the really nasty anti-Mormons I have run into were Calvinists. I wonder why that is. 1
cdowis Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: I have been led to believe The plates were not "buried in the ground". Perhaps you should check out the facts rather than listen to those who want to destroy the church. Just a suggestion.
boblloyd91 Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 (edited) Now that the thread is getting back to where we were before where were we? I'm really enjoying your questions Steve and want to keep going Edited April 12, 2016 by boblloyd91
boblloyd91 Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 11 hours ago, cdowis said: I notice two things about you. You are the only one who apparently doesn't know the answer, and you are a fan of comic books. May I suggest that you trust me when I say that there are some things in this world that you don't want to know. The world will come crashing in on you soon enough Okay not to derail the thread or turn things into a personal fight but I only asked a question about a statement you made that I had a hard time grasping and turn it into a condescending personal attack. Not cool. 2
cdowis Posted April 12, 2016 Posted April 12, 2016 18 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said: Okay not to derail the thread or turn things into a personal fight but I only asked a question about a statement you made that I had a hard time grasping and turn it into a condescending personal attack. Not cool. Please put me on ignore. I don't want to worry about hurting your feelings.
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