Anti-Mormon

[Scott Lloyd]

35 minutes ago, ALarson said:

If that is what you choose to believe, that's fine.  I've read too many statements by too many members and other witnesses who lived in Utah that gives reason to at least suspect they still existed in Utah. If you choose to believe these were all  liars, that's also fine.  I think it's naive, though.  Even Brigham Young mentioned them at one time (I'll try to find that as I remember reading it).

Bottom line then is you choose to swallow anti-Mormon legend, while I am relying on the respected Encyclopedia of Mormonism published by Macmillian & Co. and prepared with the contribution of scholars under the supervision of Dr. Daniel C. Ludlow at BYU.

I think it is you who is being naive, with behavior comparable to placing your credence on the National Enquirer for your knowledge of current events.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Since there was never any such thing as a Danite band in Utah, even one reference to it in the context of the Utah period of Church history detracts from the credibility of Bishop's published version of Lee's memoirs and confirms the impression of it being an inflammatory and sensationalistic rendition designed to sell books by exacerbating public prejudice.

So you acknowledge that Russell was wrong when he stated that the Danites were "hardly mentioned" in the Bishop's first edition of his book?  (I found them mentioned at least 30 times.)

If so, how do you know he's not wrong about the Danites not existing out in Utah?

Again, maybe you should invest some time with reading some church history and sources on this topic rather than to just continue taking other's word for it and quoting them.

[CV75]

Here are some "Ant-Mormons" (missionary variety):

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Bottom line then is you choose to swallow anti-Mormon legend, while I am relying on the respected Encyclopedia of Mormonism published by Macmillian & Co. and prepared with the contribution of scholars under the supervision of Dr. Daniel C. Ludlow at BYU.

No, bottom line is that I've done my own research and I think for myself.  

I have stated over and over again that I considered the source and that I do not believe all of the accusations regarding the Danites.  But, the amount of statements made by a large amount of witnesses and members from back then, lead me to at least suspect they still existed in Utah.  That's what I believe, but you have every right to believe as you wish.

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, ALarson said:

You don't know this (that "there was never any such thing as a Danite band in Utah").  How much reading have you even done on this topic?  I have to wonder.

Believe what you want, but you might want to try doing some of your own research on this topic.  If you don't want to, that's ok too.

But after much reading on this myself, I came to the conclusion that there are just too many statements by too many members (and other witnesses) to not at least suspect that this group still existed in Utah.  I did take who the sources were into account and I do believe there are exaggerations too.  But again, for you to definitively state that they did not exist is naive, IMO.  I also get that's what you want to believe.

.

I wonder about the quality of your research when a scholar (David J. Whittaker in Encyclopedia of Mormonism) states that "no Danite organization was known in Nauvoo or in Utah" and that "there is no evidence of any such band" after the Missouri period.

But while you are searching for that nebulous Brigham Young quote, perhaps you could also cite for us some of the content from your reading that has you so convinced there were Danite organizations in Utah. Let us evaluate for ourselves the credibility of such rumors.

Hint: Conan Doyle fantasizing about it in a Sherlock Holmes novel doesn't cut it.

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, ALarson said:

No, bottom line is that I've done my own research and I think for myself.  

I have stated over and over again that I considered the source and that I do not believe all of the accusations regarding the Danites.  But, the amount of statements made by a large amount of witnesses and members from back then, lead me to at least suspect they still existed in Utah.  That's what I believe, but you have every right to believe as you wish.

So if enough people repeat a lie, then it turns into the truth?

Got it.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

So you acknowledge that Russell was wrong when he stated that the Danites were "hardly mentioned" in the Bishop's first edition of his book?  (I found them mentioned at least 30 times.)

If so, how do you know he's not wrong about the Danites not existing out in Utah?

Again, maybe you should invest some time with reading some church history and sources on this topic rather than to just continue taking other's word for it and quoting them.

Then again, maybe you should try reading instead of just word counting. The occurrences of "danite" in the first edition break down as follows:

1. One in the preface, written by Bishop.
2. A whole bunch in reference to Missouri, the Gallatin riot, the battle of Crooked River and the expulsion. That's 1838-9.
3. Exactly one in the Utah period.

 

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wonder about the quality of your research when a scholar (David J. Whittaker in Encyclopedia of Mormonism) states that "no Danite organization was known in Nauvoo or in Utah" and that "there is no evidence of any such band" after the Missouri period.

But while you are searching for that nebulous Brigham Young quote, perhaps you could also cite for us some of the content from your reading that has you so convinced there were Danite organizations in Utah. Let us evaluate for ourselves the credibility of such rumors.

 

Oh brother 

There are dozens of books that I have read and I'm not going through all of them for all of the statements regarding this group existing in Utah.

You can take the word of others, but I prefer to search and find my own answers.  Again, it's your right to believe as you choose.  We simply disagree here and there's no need to continue as I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.  

This is a derail again anyway (and I'm just as responsible as you are for this, so we'll need to start a new thread to continue if you wish to.)

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, ALarson said:

So you acknowledge that Russell was wrong when he stated that the Danites were "hardly mentioned" in the Bishop's first edition of his book?  (I found them mentioned at least 30 times.)

If so, how do you know he's not wrong about the Danites not existing out in Utah?

Again, maybe you should invest some time with reading some church history and sources on this topic rather than to just continue taking other's word for it and quoting them.

Hello? I'm not relying solely on Russell. I cited the respected Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Did you miss that? If not, why are you ignoring it?

Tell you what: I'll post the entry in it's entirety so it won't escape your notice this time.

 

Quote

 

Danites

See this page in the original 1992 publication.

Author: Whittaker, David J.

Following the violence in northwestern Missouri in 1838, the Mormon dissident Sampson Avard, star witness in a court of inquiry weighing evidence against LDS leaders, charged that the Church had organized a band of armed men bound by secret oaths who had engaged in illegal activities against non-Mormon neighbors (Document, pp. 97-108). With the 1841 publication of the court proceedings, Avard's account became the foundation for all subsequent non-Mormon "Danite" accounts. Thus was born the legend of the Danites.

Though no Danite organization was known in Nauvoo or in Utah, the stereotype persisted, becoming a part of national discussion about Utah and the Latter-day Saints and for decades a staple of dime novels (see Mormons, Image of: Fiction). By 1900 at least fifty novels had been published in English using the Avard-type Danite to develop story lines of murder, pillage, and conspiracy against common citizens. Arthur Conan Doyle (A Study in Scarlet ) created Sherlock Holmes to solve a murder committed by Danites. Zane Grey (Riders of the Purple Sage ) and Robert Louis Stevenson (The Dynamiter ) were among the authors who found the image of the evil Danites well suited for popular reading audiences who delighted in sensationalism (Cornwall and Arrington). The image became so pervasive that few readers were willing to question the accuracy of such portrayals.

The reality of Danites in Missouri in 1838 is both less and more than the stereotype. Contemporary records suggest something fundamentally different. In October 1838, Albert Perry Rockwood, an LDS resident of Far West, Missouri, wrote in his journal of a public Danite organization that involved the whole Latter-day Saint community. He described in biblical terms companies of tens, fifties, and hundreds (cf. Ex. 18:13-26)-similar to the organization the pioneers later used during the migration to the Great Basin. Here the Danite organization encompassed the full range of activities of a covenant community that viewed itself as a restoration of ancient Israel. Working in groups, with some assigned to defense, others to securing provisions, and still others to constructing dwellings, these Danites served the interests of the whole. This was not the secret organization Avard spoke of; in fact, Rockwood's letters to friends and family were even more descriptive than his journal (Jessee and Whittaker).

In the fall of 1838, with old settlers in Missouri swearing to drive the Mormons out rather than permit them to become a political majority and with LDS leaders declaring that they would fight before again seeing their rights trampled, northwestern Missouri was in a state of war (see Missouri Conflict). Sparked by an effort to prevent LDS voting, violence erupted in August and soon spread. On both sides, skirmishes involved members of state-authorized militias. Evidence suggests that during this time of fear, clashes, and confusion, Sampson Avard, probably a captain within the public Danite structure and a militia officer, subverted the ideals of both by persuading his men to undertake the criminal activities he later argued were the authorized actions of the whole community. Encouraged perhaps by the firmly stated intentions of leaders to meet force with force but apparently without their approval, Avard used his Danite and military positions to mold a covert renegade band to avenge anti-Mormon outrages. He succeeded because after weeks of responding to violence with strictly defensive measures, Avard was not alone in feeling that the time for forbearance had passed. Others of the time in late reminiscences recalled that clandestine meetings were held, which were subsequently reported to Joseph Smith, who then denounced Avard, removed him from his official command, and disbanded the maverick body. Though short-lived and unauthorized, this covert organization, thanks to Avard's distorted and widely publicized testimony, usurped the former usage of "Danites," and the once honorable appellation became a synonym for officially sanctioned secret lawlessness.

In contrast, when five hundred men in the Caldwell County (Mormon) militia later took the offensive in response to two months of unrelenting violence and depredations, there was nothing secretive about it. In mid-October, with supplies running low, they left defensive positions to forage and to punish enemies-a very public effort to improve security by preemptive forays. Two weeks later, facing increasing numbers of volunteers and a militia emboldened by the governor's Extermination Order, they surrendered their arms in defeat.

The reality, then, behind the supposed secretive, lawless Danites of legend was this renegade band formed briefly in 1838 in the midst of war. There is no evidence of any such band later, and even in 1838, the Latter-day Saint community as a whole did not deserve blame for the unauthorized actions of a few. As Parley P. Pratt, an apostle, wrote to his family after hearing Avard's court testimony, "They accuse us of things that never entered into our hearts." From Liberty Jail on December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith summarized the situation as he then understood it: "We have learned also since we have been in prison that many false and pernicious things which were calculated to lead the saints far astray and to do great injury have been taught by Dr. Avard as coming from the Presidency…which the presidency never knew of being taught in the church by any body untill after they were made prisoners…the presidency were ignorant as well as innocent of these things" (PWJS, p. 380).

Unfortunately, in an age when Latter-day Saints were hated and persecuted, Avard's story provided a ready explanation for anyone who wanted to believe the worst. The reality was far less sensational.

 

Bibliography

Cornwall, Rebecca Foster, and Leonard J. Arrington. "Perpetuation of a Myth: Mormon Danites in Five Western Novels, 1840-90." BYU Studies 23 (Spring 1983):147-65.

Document Containing the Correspondence, Orders, Etc. in Relation to the Disturbances with the Mormons; and the Evidence Given before the Hon. Austin A. King. Fayette, Mo., 1841.

Gentry, Leland H. "The Danite Band of 1838." BYU Studies 14 (Summer 1974):421-50.

Jessee, Dean C., and David J. Whittaker, eds. "The Last Months of Mormonism in Missouri: The Albert Perry Rockwood Journal." BYU Studies 28 (Winter 1988):5-41.

Whittaker, David J. "The Book of Daniel in Early Mormon Thought." In By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, Vol. 1, pp. 155-201. Salt Lake City, 1990.

DAVID J. WHITTAKER

 

(Emphasis mine)

Edited April 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

21 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Then again, maybe you should try reading instead of just word counting. The occurrences of "danite" in the first edition break down as follows:

1. One in the preface, written by Bishop.
2. A whole bunch in reference to Missouri, the Gallatin riot, the battle of Crooked River and the expulsion. That's 1838-9.
3. Exactly one in the Utah period.

 

You stated that the Danites were "barely" mentioned in the first edition.  And, that is definitely not correct.  They were mentioned over 30 times in the first edition.

Here is your exact quote:

Quote

 

The second edition, as Hugh Nibley demonstrated, has the word "danite" sprinkled through it like cinnamon on toast, where the first hardly mentions danites at all. 

 

At least own up to what you stated.  You can try to qualify it now, but that's not what you stated as you can see in your quote above.

 

(I'm not responding on this thread again regarding this topic, out of respect to Steve, but you and Scott can continue with the derail if you choose.)

Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson

[cinepro]

On 4/11/2016 at 9:45 PM, Steve Noel said:

The term "anti-Mormon" is used a lot on these message boards. How do you apply this term? Is it a broad term for all who reject LDS beliefs, or is it a specific term for certain kinds of opposition? 

Here's how I define it:

Someone puts a button in front of you and tells you that if you push the button, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be dissolved,  its assets sold and divided among the former members, it's legal structures voided, the missionaries sent home, the GA's retired, etc. 

Would you push that button?

If so, you are an "anti-Mormon".  If not, you aren't.

For reference purposes, I would push such a button for Scientology, so I am willing to be called an "anti-Scientologist". 

[Scott Lloyd]

49 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Oh brother 

There are dozens of books that I have read and I'm not going through all of them for all of the statements regarding this group existing in Utah.

Why not? If they are as pervasive and compelling as you say they are, you ought to be able to come up with, say, half a dozen that bear out your words. And do it fairly easily . Or is it that you are starting to lose confidence in your own I-know-the-Utah-Danites-are-true testimony? Or could it be that what you are remembering is fictional accounts such as the Sherlock Holmes mystery?

Quote

You can take the word of others, but I prefer to search and find my own answers.

I've asked you for a representative sample of your "own answers." Is that beyond reason?

Quote

 Again, it's your right to believe as you choose.  We simply disagree here and there's no need to continue as I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.

Your solemn testimony of the Utah Danites is, well, impressive is the wrong word. Remarkable, perhaps.

Quote

This is a derail again anyway (and I'm just as responsible as you are for this, so we'll need to start a new thread to continue if you wish to.)

You keep telling me to start new threads. Are you incapable of doing so? I see no indication of your having been placed on "limited" status.

So you can provide those citations either here or in a new thread; it's up to you. And don't forget your pledge to provide that quote from Brigham Young.

While you're at it can you tell us who the officers and commanders of the Danite band were in Utah. (In Missouri, we know it was Samson Avard.) And what was the chain-of-command from Brigham Young? You say he mentioned them. If that's true, he must have had oversight over them. Or at least have known who was in charge. 

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And don't forget your pledge to provide that quote from Brigham Young.

If you issued a CFR, I didn't see it (sorry).  Here is the quote:

Quote

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:6; “I say to all such characters, if you come here and practice your iniquity, we will send you home quick, whenever we can catch and convict you. I wish such characters would let the boys have a chance to lay their hands on them. If men come here and do not behave themselves, they will not only find the Danites, whom they talk so much about, biting the horses’ heels, but the scoundrels will find something biting their heels.” – Salt Lake City, July 5, 1857

(No more derail from me, Steve.  I did want to respond if this was a CFR.)

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

You stated that the Danites were "barely" mentioned in the first edition.  And, that is definitely not correct.  They were mentioned over 30 times in the first edition.

Here is your exact quote:

At least own up to what you stated.  You can try to qualify it now, but that's not what you stated as you can see in your quote above.

Of course as anyone who knows how to read with comprehension understands, I was talking about danites in Utah.

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

(I'm not responding on this thread again regarding this topic, out of respect to Steve, but you and Scott can continue with the derail if you choose.)

My "derail" was in answer to your CFR.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Since there was never any such thing as a Danite band in Utah, even one reference to it in the context of the Utah period of Church history detracts from the credibility of Bishop's published version of Lee's memoirs and confirms the impression of it being an inflammatory and sensationalistic rendition designed to sell books by exacerbating public prejudice.

 

Thank you Scott. At least one person understands what I was talking about.

[ALarson]

43 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

My "derail" was in answer to your CFR.

Another derail of a derail (sorry Steve).  

And, you still have not answered my CFR, Russell.

(Regarding your quote: "The second edition, as Hugh Nibley demonstrated, has the word "danite" sprinkled through it like cinnamon on toast, where the first hardly mentions danites at all.")

Here's my CFR: 

17 hours ago, ALarson said:

CFR  (I'd like to see the quotes and the difference in the 2 edition including the addition of the word "Danite" that wasn't in the 1st edition.  Thanks)

I'm still waiting for the information you promised me regarding how many more times the Danites are mentioned in the 2nd edition of Bishop's book vs. the number of times they were mentioned in his 1st edition.  Just a link to the 2nd edition (if one can search for content) will do.  Thanks.

.

Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

41 minutes ago, ALarson said:

If you issued a CFR, I didn't see it (sorry).  Here is the quote:

 

I didn't think a CFR was necessary, since you had already said you were going to look for and provide the quote.

 

Quote

 

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:6; “I say to all such characters, if you come here and practice your iniquity, we will send you home quick, whenever we can catch and convict you. I wish such characters would let the boys have a chance to lay their hands on them. If men come here and do not behave themselves, they will not only find the Danites, whom they talk so much about, biting the horses’ heels, but the scoundrels will find something biting their heels.” – Salt Lake City, July 5, 1857

 

 

 

 

As Russell pointed out, it is necessary to read for comprehension.

Obviously, the operative phrase here is "whom they talk so much about."

Brigham Young, engaging in some sabre rattling, was mocking and taunting the haters of Mormonism for their fixation on the fanciful rumors of a Danite band in Utah, since, as historians today understand, there really was no Danite band in Utah.  He was telling scoundrels and workers of "iniquity" that if they came to the territory intent on doing such, they would find themselves faring worse than they feared.

This is a really tenuous thread on which to hang your claim of Brigham Young leading Danites in Utah. Is this the best you've got?

Again, who was the leader of the Danites in Utah? Who were the principal officers? What chain-of-command relationship did the have with Brigham Young? When and where were they organized, since the Missouri group had already been disbanded even before the Nauvoo period? Were any alleged Danites in Utah ever apprehended and prosecuted? Where is your evidence?

Quote

(No more derail from me, Steve.  I did want to respond if this was a CFR.)

Again, why did you expect a CFR after you had already said you were going to find and provide the quote?

And are you incapable of starting a separate thread?

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Another derail of a derail (sorry Steve).  

Russell, I'm still waiting for the information you promised me regarding how many more times the Danites are mentioned in the 2nd edition of Bishop's book vs. the number of times they were mentioned in his 1st edition.  Thanks.

.

He has already said he was talking about references to Danites in Utah. Of which there was only one.

If a subsequent edition of the Lee "confessions" contains numerous references to Utah Danites, after the first edition contained only one, that would be pretty incriminating for Bishop having doctored the memoirs.

[Steve Noel]

You all can do what you want with this thread. I am not going to follow it any longer. Thanks for the many substantive responses.

[ALarson]

13 minutes ago, Steve Noel said:

You all can do what you want with this thread. I am not going to follow it any longer. Thanks for the many substantive responses.

My apologies, Steve.  I know I contributed to the derails.

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Since there was never any such thing as a Danite band in Utah,

They are now referred to as "church security".  

For example, if two men are seen kissing on Temple Square,  if a youtuber is filming an interview with the missionaries on the grounds of the Manti Temple,  the Danites... uh... church security is called to deal with them.  I suspect that they were also involved in recruiting ..... well, nevermind.  That is not public knowledge.

Edited April 13, 2016 by cdowis

[Steve Noel]

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

My apologies, Steve.  I know I contributed to the derails.

Not a big deal. I think the question has been ably answered already.

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Steve Noel said:

Not a big deal. I think the question has been ably answered already.

Ok.  Cool.

And, I've enjoyed your presence and contributions thus far here.  I hope you stick around  

(Since I have your permission, I'll answer the last questions posted for me....thanks!).

Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

52 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is a really tenuous thread on which to hang your claim of Brigham Young leading Danites in Utah. Is this the best you've got?

I never said that I was hanging my suspicions on only one statement.  You asked for Brigham Young's statement where he mentions "Danites" and I provided that for you.  You can believe he was joking and that's your right to believe that, of course.  We simply cannot know that for sure though.

52 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Again, who was the leader of the Danites in Utah? Who were the principal officers? What chain-of-command relationship did the have with Brigham Young? When and where were they organized, since the Missouri group had already been disbanded even before the Nauvoo period? Were any alleged Danites in Utah ever apprehended and prosecuted? Where is your evidence?

Wow, I never made these claims either.  Maybe just calm down a bit ok.  I simply wrote that there are so many statements made by members and witnesses from back then that I at least suspect this group still existed (I think I have stated that numerous times already).

Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

42 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He has already said he was talking about references to Danites in Utah. Of which there was only one..

That was not his original statement.  I'll let Russell answer the CFR as he stated he'd do.  But, thanks.

(Even if he was just referring to Utah references, I'd like to see the difference between the 1st and 2nd editions.  I believe I own the 1st edition, so I'd like to know for reference sake.)

Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson