Scott Lloyd Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 10 minutes ago, ALarson said: Ok. Cool. And, I've enjoyed your presence and contributions thus far here. I hope you stick around (Since I have your permission, I'll answer the last questions posted for me....thanks!). I think the last question posed to you was, "Are you incapable of starting a separate thread?" Should be fairly easy to answer.
Teancum Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 19 hours ago, cdowis said: We appreciate that you share your particular beliefs here on this forum of those outside the church. We accept and believe in ALL the Word of God, including the Bible and modern revelation and see things differently. It would be safe to say that we disagree with every sentence in your post above, but I'm sure you already know that. We?? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Do you speak for the Church? Fact is there is much grace based teaching in the LDS Canon. It just has been hidden by over the top work LDS leaders that harped on obedience and self perfection (in and of itself a false doctrine in the LDS Church). I suggest Stephen Robinson's book Believing Christ.
ALarson Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 31 minutes ago, cdowis said: They are now referred to as "church security". For example, if two men are seen kissing on Temple Square, if a youtuber is filming an interview with the missionaries on the grounds of the Manti Temple, the Danites... uh... church security is called to deal with them. I suspect that they were also involved in recruiting ..... well, nevermind. That is not public knowledge. And, I believe they are now referred to as the Strengthening Church Members Committee (Or something like that) 1
cdowis Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, ALarson said: And, I believe they are now referred to as the Strengthening Church Members Committee (Or something like that) Really? I was hoping that Scott would fill in the details. Edited April 13, 2016 by cdowis 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 20 minutes ago, ALarson said: I never said that I was hanging my suspicions on only one statement. You asked for Brigham Young's statement where he mentions "Danites" and I provided that for you. You can believe he was joking and that's your right to believe that, of course. We simply cannot know that for sure though. Wow, I never made these claims either. Maybe just calm down a bit ok. I simply wrote that there are so many statements made by members and witnesses from back then that I at least suspect this group still existed (I think I have stated that numerous times already). But if they existed, they must have had leadership. Even criminal gangs have bosses. And did they function outside the authority of Brigham Young, or were they answerable to him? And if such questions cannot be answered, doesn't that throw a great deal of doubt on the supposition that they ever existed at all, especially in the absence of any evidence?
Ahab Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Bottom line then is you choose to swallow anti-Mormon legend, while I am relying on the respected Encyclopedia of Mormonism published by Macmillian & Co. and prepared with the contribution of scholars under the supervision of Dr. Daniel C. Ludlow at BYU. I think it is you who is being naive, with behavior comparable to placing your credence on the National Enquirer for your knowledge of current events. Someone named Dan, or Daniel, saying there are no more Danites??? Come on now. Surely you can see the irony here.
ALarson Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: But if they existed, they must have had leadership. Even criminal gangs have bosses. And did they function outside the authority of Brigham Young, or were they answerable to him? And if such questions cannot be answered, doesn't that throw a great deal of doubt on the supposition that they ever existed at all, especially in the absence of any evidence? No, not really (IMO). I know that there were some names mentioned, but I'd have to revisit the topic as it's been years since I read several books and sources regarding this. I do know that I read enough contemporary sources and statements that I concluded there was enough to at least suspect the group was still in existence for at least a few years in Utah. . Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: He has already said he was talking about references to Danites in Utah. Of which there was only one. If a subsequent edition of the Lee "confessions" contains numerous references to Utah Danites, after the first edition contained only one, that would be pretty incriminating for Bishop having doctored the memoirs. 40 minutes ago, ALarson said: That was not his original statement. I'll let Russell answer the CFR as he stated he'd do. But, thanks. In light of his subsequent clarification, I think a charitable reading is that he was talking about references to Utah Danites, which would have to be so for it to be relevant to the accusation of Brigham Young ordering the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Quote (Even if he was just referring to Utah references, I'd like to see the difference between the 1st and 2nd editions. I believe I own the 1st edition, so I'd like to know for reference sake.) He mentioned Nibley; perhaps there's something in one of Nibley's works. Edited April 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ALarson said: No, not really (IMO). I know that there were some names mentioned, but I'd have to revisit the topic as it's been years since I read several books and sources regarding this. I do know that I read enough contemporary sources and statements that I concluded there was enough to at least suspect the group was still in existence for at least a few years in Utah. . Well, the "Gospel Topics" essay published by the Church is consistent with what was said in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism entry, to the effect that there were no Danite bands after the group ceased to exist during the MIssouri period. Quote Though the existence of the Danites was short-lived, it resulted in a longstanding and much-embellished myth about a secret society of Mormon vigilantes. Edited to add: And here's what Wikipedia has to say about the allegation of Danites in Utah: Quote Allegations in Utah Historian Leland Gentry asserts that after Sampson Avard was captured in November 1838, the Danite movement "died a quick death."[63] Gentry cites numerous evidences supporting this position in his book, "The Danite Band of 1838." Nevertheless, after the Mormons settled in Nauvoo, Illinois and later in Utah, they were dogged by rumors the Danites continued to exercise influence within the Mormon community.[citation needed] These beliefs were fueled by the fact that many former Danites occupied prominent paramilitary or law enforcement roles in the new settlements. For example, alleged former Danite Hosea Stout became the chief of police in Nauvoo. Then, after Joseph Smith was assassinated in 1844, Brigham Young made Stout head of the "Whistling and Whittling Brigade" – a group of young boys who intimidated strangers by following them around Nauvoo "whistling" until they left.[64] Another reported former Danite, Orrin Porter Rockwell, became a body guard to Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, and later to Brigham Young. Disaffected and dissenting ex-Mormon, Ann Eliza Young, stated that Rockwell gained fame as one of Young's "Destroying Angels" – though no reference to the existence of such a group can be found outside her writings.[65]:269 Despite the presence of purported former Danites within the LDS Church, there is no evidence they continued to exist as an organized body after 1838, or that they participated in any actions against dissenting and former Mormons in Utah. For instance, while former Danite John D. Lee's lengthy confessional describes the operations of the Danites in Missouri, he makes no indication to the continued existence of the organization after the Mormons left the state.[66] When the expedition of Lt. John W. Gunnison was killed by Indians in 1853, some said that the Danites had a hand in the affair.[67] However, these claims were refuted by an official investigation led by Gunnison's second in command.[68]:74 Similar reports circulated when Indians killed territorial official Almon W. Babbitt on the plains in 1856,[69] though there is no evidence supporting this allegation. In the 1870s, Ann Eliza Young and Fanny Stenhouse (both former Mormons) authored exposés of Mormonism. Young and Stenhouse stated that the Danites were active, and primarily occupied with the task of discreetly murdering and disposing of Mormon dissenters and outsiders perceived to be a threat to Brigham Young's power.[65]:274[70]:169–170 Neither Ms. Young nor Ms. Stenhouse provided any evidence to back-up their claims. Not a single "murder" was reported during that time to support these allegations, not to mention evidences which would support allegations of multiple homicides. To date, both LDS and non-LDS researchers have failed to produce any evidence providing (even remotely) the support of such claims, leading to the position among scholars of Mormon history that the claims of Ms. Young and Ms. Stenhouse were wrong.[citation needed] Incidentally, you could have found your Brigham Young quote in that same Wikipedia entry, which also states that, aside from the quote, Brigham Young persistently denied the existence of Danites in Utah: Quote Brigham Young Brigham Young denied that the Danites continued to exist. However, on July 5, 1857, just before the start of the Utah War, Young used language similar to the fiery sermons that preceded the 1838 Mormon War. In the address Young demanded military action against former Mormon persecutors, mobocrats, and the "priests, editors, and politicians" who were then denouncing the Mormons. Young declared that if these provocateurs came to the Utah Territory, the Mormons would "deal" with them. He stated that anyone who entered the territory and didn't "behave themselves," including any Mormon who "unlawfully disturbs anyone," would "find a 'Vigilance Committee.'" This was most likely a reference to the famous San Francisco Vigilance Committee of 1856, an organization that one writer called "the largest and most influential vigilante group in American history."[71]:39, 58 Young also declared that any such men would find "not only the Danites, whom they talk so much about, biting the horses (sic) heels, but the scoundrels will find something biting 'their' heels."[72] Otherwise, Young persistently denied the existence of Danitism in Utah. For instance, in June 1857, he said in a public address: "[people claim that the Danites] are in every town and city throughout the whole of the United States, and that their object is not known by the people. That they are all over the world; that there are thousands of them, and that the life of every officer that comes here is in the hands of the Danites. That even the President of the United States is not safe, for at one wink from Brigham the Danites will be upon him and kill him...It is all a pack of nonsense, the whole of it."[73] Later, in September 1857, Young said in a private meeting of the church leadership,: "the world accuse !(sic) me of controlling the affairs of Calafornia (sic) & kansas (sic) &c. The people do believe that we have a Band Called the Danites but how Could they exist so long without shedding Blood? For we Cannot find that they have killed any body. But I do not know of any such men."[74] A decade later, Brigham Young again denied the existence of violence by Danites. On April 7, 1867, he stated: Is there war in our religion? No; neither war nor bloodshed. Yet our enemies cry out "bloodshed", and "oh, what dreadful men these Mormons are, and those Danites! how they slay and kill!" Such is all nonsense and folly in the extreme. The wicked slay the wicked, and they will lay it on the Saints.[75] Edited April 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Ahab Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 First you guys should correctly define or describe what a Danite really is. Anyone named Dan or Daniel or Danny should immediately be suspect. Or Daniella too, maybe. Especially if they would follow the prophet, whoever the prophet would happen to be. 2
ALarson Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: In light of his subsequent clarification, I think a charitable readings is that he was talking about references to Utah Danites, which would have to be so for it to be relevant to the accusation of Brigham Young ordering the Mountain Meadows Massacre. He mentioned Nibley; perhaps there's something in one of Nibley's works. Perhaps, but Russell said, " I'll look up some examples and get back to you". So, I'll just wait. But, thanks
Scott Lloyd Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 22 minutes ago, Ahab said: Someone named Dan, or Daniel, saying there are no more Danites??? Come on now. Surely you can see the irony here. Actually, today's Danites are the followers of Daniel C. Peterson. That's why anti-Mormons and apostates hate and fear him so much. (Just joking, of course) 1
ERMD Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 3 hours ago, ALarson said: You don't know this (that "there was never any such thing as a Danite band in Utah"). How much reading have you even done on this topic? I have to wonder. Believe what you want, but you might want to try doing some of your own research on this topic. If you don't want to, that's ok too. But after much reading on this myself, I came to the conclusion that there are just too many statements by too many members (and other witnesses) to not at least suspect that this group still existed in Utah. I did take who the sources were into account and I do believe there are exaggerations too. But again, for you to definitively state that they did not exist is naive, IMO. I also get that's what you want to believe. . Lots of people have made statements about vampires in the Carpathian Mountains and about chupacabras along the Texas-Mexico border. This does not amount to evidence. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ERMD said: Lots of people have made statements about vampires in the Carpathian Mountains and about chupacabras along the Texas-Mexico border. This does not amount to evidence. Don't you get it? For you to definitively state that vampires do not exist is naive. Edited April 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
consiglieri Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Actually, today's Danites are the followers of Daniel C. Peterson. That's why anti-Mormons and apostates hate and fear him so much. (Just joking, of course) LOL! And here I thought it had something to do with the Old Testament tribe of Dan . . .
Scott Lloyd Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 19 minutes ago, Ahab said: First you guys should correctly define or describe what a Danite really is. Anyone named Dan or Daniel or Danny should immediately be suspect. Or Daniella too, maybe. Especially if they would follow the prophet, whoever the prophet would happen to be. Is that why President Hinckley's favorite song was "Danny Boy"?
ALarson Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 6 minutes ago, ERMD said: Lots of people have made statements about vampires in the Carpathian Mountains and about chupacabras along the Texas-Mexico border. This does not amount to evidence. Correct. I'm not sure what this has to do with a group that has been acknowledged to have been in existence though. 2
Ahab Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 23 minutes ago, ERMD said: Lots of people have made statements about vampires in the Carpathian Mountains and about chupacabras along the Texas-Mexico border. This does not amount to evidence. Testimony is evidence. Maybe false testimony, which would be false evidence, but still evidence. Hmm. Interesting evidence.
consiglieri Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 37 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: For you to definitively state that vampires do not exist is naive. May I have your permission to put this gem in my signature line?
ALarson Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said: Of course as anyone who knows how to read with comprehension understands, I was talking about danites in Utah. Well, that's not what you said. (You made no mention of just the Utah time period). You stated: Quote The second edition, as Hugh Nibley demonstrated, has the word "danite" sprinkled through it like cinnamon on toast, where the first hardly mentions danites at all I'd say that referencing "Danite" or "Danites" 30 times throughout the 1st edition is more than "hardly" a mention (sounds more like sprinkled throughout just as Nibley said occurred throughout the 2nd edition ). But if you prefer, I'll ask (for the CFR ) that you only quote the changes or additions in Bishop's book (of the words "Danite" or "Danites") during the Utah period only. If that makes things easier for you, I'm fine with that. I counted the word "Danite" used once and the word "Danites" used twice in the 1st edition (referencing the Utah time period). . Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson
Scott Lloyd Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 4 minutes ago, ALarson said: Correct. I'm not sure what this has to do with a group that has been acknowledged to have been in existence though. Vlad the Impaler is acknowledged to have existed.
ALarson Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Vlad the Impaler is acknowledged to have existed. Yes.. So, he's not a myth or merely a legend if he existed. Correct? (Maybe you should direct this at ERMD ) Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 1 minute ago, ALarson said: Yes.. So, he's not a myth or legend if you believe he existed. Correct? I don't think I get what you're driving at. The Missouri Danites were not myths or legends either; Utah Danites are.
Ahab Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 52 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Don't you get it? For you to definitively state that vampires do not exist is naive. Yeah but... you still haven't clearly defined or described what a Danite really is, or was, or will be. Would you like to make an appointment?!? (one of my favorite lines from a movie)
ALarson Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don't think I get what you're driving at. The Missouri Danites were not myths or legends either; Utah Danites are. Um, ok . Hey I'm completely fine if you believe this. I don't know why it bothers you so much that I suspect they were still in existence for at least some of the early years in Utah. I simply asked Russell for information regarding the two different editions of Bishop's book (that he stated took place). Once again, I own a copy of the 1st edition and I'd like to know what changes or additions were made in the 2nd edition. He made the statement and he said he'd get back to me with some examples when I posted a CFR. I'll wait to hear from him on this.
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