Damien the Leper Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 I wanted to share this theology. I love it as opposed to Imputed Righteousness (think Lutheran Wisconsin Synod and Westminster Reformed). “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous” (Romans 2:12-13) There is a subtle, toxic doctrine that permeates the Church today that says Jesus plus something else is required. Jesus plus works. Jesus plus obedience to the Law. Jesus plus…fill in the blank. This is why so many people struggle with understanding the differences between the Old and New Covenants. The result is a hybrid of the two where we trust in Jesus to save us, but then start working at everything else. This misunderstanding could be attributed to not comprehending this passage of scripture. At first glance, it appears that Paul is saying that to be declared righteous before God one must obey the Law. But the misconception is that one’s obedience to the Law means following rules and commandments, but this not the obedience Paul means. Paul is talking about obeying the righteousness of the Law (Rom. 2:26), which is an entirely separate thing. What Is the Righteousness of the Law? In the previous sentence, Paul said that those who sin apart from the Law, or without knowledge of the Law, perish without being judged by it. The very next verses go on to say that Gentiles (those outside of God’s covenant people), do by nature what the Law requires because it is written on their heart (Rom. 2:14-15). If the law he’s referring to is the Jewish Law, how could Gentiles, in their subconscious know and follow over 600 commandments? (i.e., The Ten Commandments, dietary and sacrificial laws, etc.). They couldn’t. You and I cannot either. In other words, the Jewish Law (or Ten Commandments, to generalize) is not used as the standard by which everyone is judged. This is not what is written on our hearts, nor can it be what the Jewish people are trying to accomplish by obeying the Law given by Moses. Paul is talking about obeying the intent or purpose of the Law—what the Law intended and the righteousness of what the Law points to. Here is the purpose of the Law: To show us what sin is (Rom 3:20,7:7, 7:13). To arouse sin within us (Rom 7:8-9, Gal 3:19). To condemn us (Rom 7:10, Gal 3:10, 23). To crucify the sin nature so we can live for God (Gal 2:20). To bring us to Christ (Gal 2:19, 3:24). The main purpose of the Law was to point us to Christ (Gal. 3:24). The Law showed the righteous requirements of God. The Law showed what sin was. The Law showed that we are completely incapable of obtaining a right standing with God by our deeds alone. It shows us that we are hopeless and in need of God’s mercy. This was the intent of the Law from the beginning. Therefore, this is how to obey the Law, by looking to what the Law points to—Jesus! By accepting Christ’s provision for our sin, the entire Law is fulfilled in us (Gal. 3:25). By obeying the righteousness of the law, we are declared righteous (Rom. 2:13). Understanding this is the key to understanding and unlocking the truth of God’s word. Today, may you obey the righteousness of the Law and trust in Jesus to save you. I'm fairly sure Rory, Saemo and Christ Knight will agree with it. My question is whether or not this theology can be found in Mormonism or a Mormon context. 1
Damien the Leper Posted April 6, 2016 Author Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) . Edited April 6, 2016 by Valentinus
Bernard Gui Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) How does "obeying the righteousness of the Law" differ from keeping the commandments of the Christ? ......"If you love me, keep my commandments." Are you not saying "Jesus plus obeying the righteousness of the Law?" You appear to be contradicting your premise of Jesus plus........nothing. Edited April 6, 2016 by Bernard Gui
Damien the Leper Posted April 6, 2016 Author Posted April 6, 2016 Romans 3:1-31 Evangelical Christians speak often about salvation. It's a major theme of Bible believers, and rightly so. Nothing is more important than eternal salvation. When witnessing to unbelievers the question is often asked, "Are you saved?" Seldom, if ever, is the question raised, "Have you been justified?" Perhaps that's because most people don't understand the meaning of the word justified. In Paul's letter to the Romans the apostle frequently uses the word. Justification is the major theme of the first five chapters of Romans. What does it mean? To be justified is to be "declared righteous." Someone has said, "Justification means 'just as if I had never sinned; just as if I had lived righteously all my life.'" How can someone who is unrighteous, a sinner, be declared righteous before a holy God? Paul deals with that question here. But first, he is clear as to how we are not justified. "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20. Unfortunately, many people mistakenly think that they can have a right relationship with God by obeying the Ten Commandments, doing good, or being good. Some resort to the image of scales to illustrate the justice of divine judgment, believing that those whose good works outweigh their bad works will go to heaven. They're wrong. The law cannot save anyone from sin. The purpose of the law is to reveal sin. "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Romans 3:19. The whole world is found guilty, because all have sinned. A sinner cannot save himself by obeying the law that he has already violated. We are not declared righteous by the works of the law, but rather we are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:24. Since we are justified by God's grace, we are freely justified. Justification is a gift like eternal life and salvation. See Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8, 9. Also, being through the redemption that is in Christ, our justification is "by His blood." Romans 3:25. God made an open display of His righteousness in the vicarious sacrifice of His Son, who died the righteous for the unrighteous. The blood of Christ and the grace of God are God's part in our justification. What does the Lord require of us? "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed...even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe." Romans 3:21, 22. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." Romans 3:28. Any and all, who rely upon God's grace and Christ's death, are justified by believing in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Glenn101 Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 Paul's words need to be understood in the context of all of the other scriptures also. "Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." A person can selectively quote scripture to buttress just about any doctrine that a person can conceive. That is why we have something like 39000 different Christian denominations, most of whom look to the Bible "sola scriptura." For some of those denominations, baptism is not essential, but for some it is. The trinity doctrine also has sprang from selective reading of the scriptures. And one must remember that the "law" to which Paul is referring is the Law of Moses, which Valentinus has already pointed out, was to point to the coming of Christ, which Christ fulfilled. Glenn
Boanerges Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 Great topic and great background info, thank you. To answer the question in the OP, I do think that the leadership understands that we are saved by grace. I think Pres. Uchtdorf tried to convey the same principles you have in his conference address about grace. I also think the problem he faced was this "toxic doctrine" is so well entrenched that it is difficult for him (or any other leader) to bluntly and forthrightly declare "you all are wrong about this, this is how it really is." I have been in several class discussions since Uchtdorf's talk and some "old guard" types really don't get it. That's understandable since the idea of "all we can do" has been heavily taught over the years, even though Uchtdorf tried to explain that. Don't get me wrong, I love and respect Pres. Uchtdorf (and the rest of the First Presidency) but he was between a rock and a hard place to some extent. So, yes, I think this theology can be found in the Mormon context - but I think it is misunderstood by most.
JLHPROF Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 I think more than simple salvation requires more than accepting a Savior. But if being simply "saved" is sufficient then sure, the OP is right, Christ is all.
Storm Rider Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 Val, I think you confuse and attempt to separate the law - true doctrine and commandments - and the pastoral work of the Church. This is an error that number of churches have committed in the last 100 years. You cannot separate them and the one does not exist without the other. The words of Paul are more than clear and do not need to be twisted to say something that is not there. Paul stated, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous” Just hearing the law is not acceptable for a disciple of Christ, one must obey the law - those are the ones, those who obey, who will be declared righteous by God and through God. The law of itself does not impart righteousness; obedience opens the door to God's Grace and then his righteousness becomes ours. Not because of our works, but because those who obey are willing to obey. Are we willing to go to the river Jordan and wash seven times simply because we are told to do so to be healed? Or should we dither and contemplate, rely on the arm of flesh and teachings of science that indicates that will serve no medical purpose. We don't understand and therefore we do not obey. God does not seek for our understanding or comprehension; he seeks our obedience, our willingness to follow him. The Sacrament Prayer echoes this same teaching - are we willing to take upon ourselves the name of Christ? We are not perfect and never will be perfect in our obedience, but are we willing to follow him.
Tacenda Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 8 hours ago, Valentinus said: I wanted to share this theology. I love it as opposed to Imputed Righteousness (think Lutheran Wisconsin Synod and Westminster Reformed). Add my name to the list.
Tacenda Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 I think it was Elder Bednar's conference talk last Saturday, that laid out the steps for baptism and one was 'born again'. I don't 'recall that expression used much in the church. Maybe one day the theory of this OP will be in more alignment with our church's teachings. The way we look at Grace, that we can never do enough and that it's the end all be all.
thesometimesaint Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 21 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I think it was Elder Bednar's conference talk last Saturday, that laid out the steps for baptism and one was 'born again'. I don't 'recall that expression used much in the church. Maybe one day the theory of this OP will be in more alignment with our church's teachings. The way we look at Grace, that we can never do enough and that it's the end all be all. Largely it is what do after we are "born again". Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Receipt of the Holy Ghost, Keep the Commandments. We can never do enough. But we are required to keep the commandments. We are dependent on the Grace of Christ.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 We can't gain salvation exaltation through works, but we sure can lose it through unrepentant disobedience to His statutes and judgments (commandments).
JLHPROF Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 11 minutes ago, BookofMormonLuvr said: We can't gain salvation exaltation through works, but we sure can lose it through unrepentant disobedience to His statutes and judgments (commandments). I'd like it if you'd explain this thought more fully. The difference between being saved in the Celestial Kingdom and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom is very definitely a function of works. At least according to the prophets and scriptures.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'd like it if you'd explain this thought more fully. The difference between being saved in the Celestial Kingdom and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom is very definitely a function of works. At least according to the prophets and scriptures. Ultimately, it is the shed blood of the Messiah that saves us, not the commandments we keep. IOW, if there was no Messiah, all of our sincerely done good works would be for nada. But if we do want exaltation, we better keep the commandments He has given, because there is a Messiah, and that is what He asks of us.
JLHPROF Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 30 minutes ago, BookofMormonLuvr said: Ultimately, it is the shed blood of the Messiah that saves us, not the commandments we keep. IOW, if there was no Messiah, all of our sincerely done good works would be for nada. But if we do want exaltation, we better keep the commandments He has given, because there is a Messiah, and that is what He asks of us. Ok, I agree with that. When you said we cannot gain exaltation through works you made me wonder. Of course the Savior comes first.
Damien the Leper Posted April 6, 2016 Author Posted April 6, 2016 4 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Val, I think you confuse and attempt to separate the law - true doctrine and commandments - and the pastoral work of the Church. This is an error that number of churches have committed in the last 100 years. You cannot separate them and the one does not exist without the other. The words of Paul are more than clear and do not need to be twisted to say something that is not there. Paul stated, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous” Just hearing the law is not acceptable for a disciple of Christ, one must obey the law - those are the ones, those who obey, who will be declared righteous by God and through God. The law of itself does not impart righteousness; obedience opens the door to God's Grace and then his righteousness becomes ours. Not because of our works, but because those who obey are willing to obey. Are we willing to go to the river Jordan and wash seven times simply because we are told to do so to be healed? Or should we dither and contemplate, rely on the arm of flesh and teachings of science that indicates that will serve no medical purpose. We don't understand and therefore we do not obey. God does not seek for our understanding or comprehension; he seeks our obedience, our willingness to follow him. The Sacrament Prayer echoes this same teaching - are we willing to take upon ourselves the name of Christ? We are not perfect and never will be perfect in our obedience, but are we willing to follow him. Go back and re-read what both of my state. Romans 3:19 says we cannot be saved by a law that we have already broken. 19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Paul is talking about obeying the righteousness of the law. 25For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regardedb as circumcision? 27Then he who is physicallyc uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written coded and circumcision but break the law. 28For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.29But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Storm Rider Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 57 minutes ago, Valentinus said: Go back and re-read what both of my state. Romans 3:19 says we cannot be saved by a law that we have already broken. 19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Paul is talking about obeying the righteousness of the law. 25For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regardedb as circumcision? 27Then he who is physicallyc uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written coded and circumcision but break the law. 28For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.29But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Val, there is a lot of mismatch of topics and confusion....or maybe we are just talking past one another. God justifies those who not just hear the law, but they must also obey the law. Verse 19 - begins by stating the obvious; if you are a disciple of Christ you have his law, his teachings, his commandments. We become accountable to God because we, as his disciples, are supposed to know what is sin and what is not. It then clarifies that obedience does not justify the disciple. When taking verse 19 with the previous verse above we understand that it is God who justifies the obedience NOT the obedience in and of itself. Verse 25 clarifies that while we might do things on the exterior, be circumcised, wear all types of religious paraphernalia, etc.; it is not these outward signs that have significance to God. The Jew, the true disciple of Jesus Christ is one who whose heart has changed - it is circumcised by the Spirit. The ending is important because it reminds the disciple that she must seek the praise of God rather than of man.
Damien the Leper Posted April 6, 2016 Author Posted April 6, 2016 1. We are not justified or saved by the law in any way. 2. The law points points to sin. 3. Paul gave an example in Romans 2. He essentially said that outward circumcision (or praxis in any form according to the law) does not make one righteous because the law says to do it. Observing the fact that the law is of God is to observe it's righteousness. 4. Jesus is not the author of Torah. The Father is. 5. The sacred blood of Jesus that was shed or us who believe declares us righteous through our faith. Any law observance only perfected faith but it does not contribute to actually salvation. This is what Paul was getting at.
Damien the Leper Posted April 6, 2016 Author Posted April 6, 2016 Read: 1) The New Perspective on Paul by James Dunn 2) Justification by N.T. Wright 3) Paul and Palestinian Judaism by E.P. Sanders
Storm Rider Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 I understand the theological position you are taking, but I just disagree with it as a stunted view of scripture. It takes a simple teaching - a disciple will joyfully obey and be justified by Grace - and then misdirects to something else. It is clouds the meaning of obedience and its purpose. I am familiar with by Wright and Sanders.
Damien the Leper Posted April 7, 2016 Author Posted April 7, 2016 What is being misdirected? You cannot spin or distort the theological fact that justification means to be declared righteous. You cannot spin or distort Paul's teaching that obedience to the law somehow contributes to being justified. It is absolutely clear that Paul is teaching that observing the law as righteous, as he says, is more important than physically abiding by the full law. There's no getting around this.
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