VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 This may seem like an obvious no at first but hear me out. A poster on this board saI'd that God only recognizes sealings done through proper priesthood authority. This was a reason given why Joseph Smith was justified in marrying 11 women who were already civilly married, because those marriages weren't sealings done in a temple or sealing spot. By that example it should mean that all non temple marriages are invalid like the 11 women Joseph sealed to, and that the women are still technically available to be sealed to. Otherwise Joseph made a huge mistake, and if the poster is right that God only recognizes sealings by proper authority, then everyone else could be technically or at least spiritually available, regardless of their civil, non God approved marriage. I mean what other reason did Joseph Smith have to be sealed to 11 women who were already technically claimed by marriage, but not in God's eyes.
thesometimesaint Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 Sealings are not marriages. Yours is essentially a question of authority. IE If I strapped on a gun and pinned on a badge does that give me legal authority to be a policeman, or does it take more? 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Sealings are not marriages. Yours is essentially a question of authority. IE If I strapped on a gun and pinned on a badge does that give me legal authority to be a policeman, or does it take more? Sealings aren't marriages? That's the first time I heard that. So God doesn't care about marriages, only sealings?
Robert F. Smith Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 25 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: This may seem like an obvious no at first but hear me out. A poster on this board saI'd that God only recognizes sealings done through proper priesthood authority. This was a reason given why Joseph Smith was justified in marrying 11 women who were already civilly married, because those marriages weren't sealings done in a temple or sealing spot. By that example it should mean that all non temple marriages are invalid like the 11 women Joseph sealed to, and that the women are still technically available to be sealed to. Otherwise Joseph made a huge mistake, and if the poster is right that God only recognizes sealings by proper authority, then everyone else could be technically or at least spiritually available, regardless of their civil, non God approved marriage. I mean what other reason did Joseph Smith have to be sealed to 11 women who were already technically claimed by marriage, but not in God's eyes. Several questions come to mind: First, are such sealings for eternity meant to be consummated here and now, or in eternity? If here and now, why were there never any actual offspring? Second, the late non-Mormon scholar Cyrus H. Gordon took a close look at the ancient pattern of dual paternity, in which, for example, the virgin Polymele bore Eudorus to the god Hermes, though married to the human Echecles; just so Polydora, wife of the human Borus, bore Menesthius to the god Spercheius; Patroclus is the son of Zeus and of the human Menoetius; Odysseus is divine because son of Zeus, but King of Ithaca because son of Laertes; and, of course, Jesus is divine because the literal son of God, but King of the Jews because the legal son of Joseph. Gordon, "The Double Paternity of Jesus," Biblical Archaeology Review, 4/2:26ff.; replies and rejoinders in 4/3:45-48; Gordon, The Common Background of Greek and Hebrew Civilizations (1962/1965), 244-246, 290-291; Stegner, Narrative Theology, 13-31. 1
Glenn101 Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 30 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: This may seem like an obvious no at first but hear me out. A poster on this board saI'd that God only recognizes sealings done through proper priesthood authority. This was a reason given why Joseph Smith was justified in marrying 11 women who were already civilly married, because those marriages weren't sealings done in a temple or sealing spot. By that example it should mean that all non temple marriages are invalid like the 11 women Joseph sealed to, and that the women are still technically available to be sealed to. Otherwise Joseph made a huge mistake, and if the poster is right that God only recognizes sealings by proper authority, then everyone else could be technically or at least spiritually available, regardless of their civil, non God approved marriage. I mean what other reason did Joseph Smith have to be sealed to 11 women who were already technically claimed by marriage, but not in God's eyes. A civil marriage lasts only for this lifetime. (D&C Section 132 Verse 15). But God does recognize the validity of a civil marriage. Those marriages are part of the law of the land. The practice of a man being sealed for eternity to a woman married civilly has not been sanctioned for a long long time. I do not know if anyone other than Joseph did this. But women married civilly, even if separated and filing for divorce are not "fair game." Glenn 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 10 minutes ago, Glenn101 said: A civil marriage lasts only for this lifetime. (D&C Section 132 Verse 15). But God does recognize the validity of a civil marriage. Those marriages are part of the law of the land. The practice of a man being sealed for eternity to a woman married civilly has not been sanctioned for a long long time. I do not know if anyone other than Joseph did this. But women married civilly, even if separated and filing for divorce are not "fair game." Glenn What made me think they were possibly fair game was Joseph Smith's example.
ALarson Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, Glenn101 said: A civil marriage lasts only for this lifetime. (D&C Section 132 Verse 15). But God does recognize the validity of a civil marriage. Those marriages are part of the law of the land. The practice of a man being sealed for eternity to a woman married civilly has not been sanctioned for a long long time. I do not know if anyone other than Joseph did this. Brigham Young also did this as did other early church members (Parley P. Pratt was sealed to an already civilly married woman for time and eternity, and Heber C. Kimball was sealed to one for time only and maybe some for eternity too). There may be others who did this as well. Edited March 31, 2016 by ALarson
ALarson Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Several questions come to mind: First, are such sealings for eternity meant to be consummated here and now, or in eternity? If here and now, why were there never any actual offspring? There was offspring for Heber C. Kimball and Sarah Noon (who was civilly married to another man, but separated). I'd need to look up and see if they were sealed for time and eternity...or time only. There was also offspring from Brigham Young's marriages/sealings that involved women who were civilly married to other men (Zina Huntington for one...but there were others, iirc). I know some were sealings for time, but there were those he was sealed to for eternity as well, that he had offspring with if I'm remembering correctly here. As far as with Joseph Smith's sealing to women who were already civilly married, we don't know if there was any offspring yet. Sylvia Session Lyon stated that her daughter Josephine was Joseph's daughter but I think the DNA testing is still ongoing there. ETA: I looked up Heber and Sarah's sealing and it was for time only. She was sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity (which means that Sarah's and Heber's children are Joseph's in the eternities). So, it appears that it was acceptable for those men sealed for time only or for time and eternity to women who were civilly married to other men, to have marital relations with these women (even prior to Joseph's death, as he most likely was aware of the children born from these unions). I believe Joseph was sealed to at least most of the already married women for eternity only though (iirc, he was sealed to 3 of them for time and eternity). . . Edited March 31, 2016 by ALarson
thesometimesaint Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 9 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Sealings aren't marriages? That's the first time I heard that. So God doesn't care about marriages, only sealings? My sons are Sealed to me. I'm not married to them. IMNTBHO God wants all his children to be Sealed into one family where marriages continue on into the next life.
ALarson Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 12 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: This may seem like an obvious no at first but hear me out. A poster on this board saI'd that God only recognizes sealings done through proper priesthood authority. This was a reason given why Joseph Smith was justified in marrying 11 women who were already civilly married, because those marriages weren't sealings done in a temple or sealing spot. By that example it should mean that all non temple marriages are invalid like the 11 women Joseph sealed to, and that the women are still technically available to be sealed to. Otherwise Joseph made a huge mistake, and if the poster is right that God only recognizes sealings by proper authority, then everyone else could be technically or at least spiritually available, regardless of their civil, non God approved marriage. I mean what other reason did Joseph Smith have to be sealed to 11 women who were already technically claimed by marriage, but not in God's eyes. As you can see (from posts here), it's gets pretty complicated and confusing. You have to almost study each person and their marriages/sealings to determine who was sealed to whom for time only, or for eternity only, or for time and eternity. .
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 16 minutes ago, ALarson said: As you can see (from posts here), it's gets pretty complicated and confusing. You have to almost study each person and their marriages/sealings to determine who was sealed to whom for time only, or for eternity only, or for time and eternity. . It didn't have to be that confusing.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 The sealing was kind of thrown around back in the 1800s though. Over a hundred women were sealed to Joseph Smith after his death and these were women he never met and he never consented to the sealings. Wilford Woodruff was sealed to 400 women and a lot were ancestors.
Storm Rider Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 18 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: The sealing was kind of thrown around back in the 1800s though. Over a hundred women were sealed to Joseph Smith after his death and these were women he never met and he never consented to the sealings. Wilford Woodruff was sealed to 400 women and a lot were ancestors. and men were sealed to Joseph. So what is your point? What is it you want to hear?
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 16 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: and men were sealed to Joseph. So what is your point? What is it you want to hear? What I want to hear is that some of the early prophets and apostles messed up the sealing process, and we have the correct process today. Those 400 dead ancestors of Woodruff were sealed to him as wives, not just family members.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, ERMD said: In the end, we will all be sealed to each other. But husband and wife sealings will matter the most.
thesometimesaint Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 I wouldn't say they messed up. We just have a different understanding from God now. 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: But husband and wife sealings will matter the most. I wouldn't say that either. My earthly children are just as important to me as my wife, but in a different way.
JLHPROF Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 15 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: What I want to hear is that some of the early prophets and apostles messed up the sealing process, and we have the correct process today. Those 400 dead ancestors of Woodruff were sealed to him as wives, not just family members. Why? Why do we think they messed up? I see no error in these sealings.
Calm Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 15 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: But husband and wife sealings will matter the most. You think your sealing to your wife will be more important than your sealing to God? Or any children? Putting priorities on sealings may be at the root of your problem. Joesph Smith taught we will be lost without our dead. So even if we are sealed to our spouses, it will mean nothing if we are not also sealed into the great family of God. Everything needs to work together in order to achieve the wonder that God holds ready for us. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Why? Why do we think they messed up? I see no error in these sealings. I think they messed up by being sealed to people who were already married and sealing women who have never met them to them as wives after their deaths, and marrying 400 of your dead ancestors as wives. 3
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 All these pictures are from a LDS adultery and infidelity survival and recovery group.: 1
JLHPROF Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I think they messed up by being sealed to people who were already married and sealing women who have never met them to them as wives after their deaths, and marrying 400 of your dead ancestors as wives. Find me a single one of these deceased women that were sealed to Joseph (or Wilford) who were already sealed to another man in the eternities. Then you can talk about them being "already married". These women had no eternal companions.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Find me a single one of these deceased women that were sealed to Joseph (or Wilford) who were already sealed to another man in the eternities. Then you can talk about them being "already married". These women had no eternal companions. No I'm talking about living women who were sealed to Joseph Smith after he died. And also the ones who died and were then sealed to Joseph. Joseph had no say in those sealings. A lot of these women had never met Joseph before. How can an eternal companionship come from never even meeting each other?
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 I hate seeing sealings reduced to, well you never knew each other well or sometimes at all, but here get sealed to the dead prophet and make eternity work. Ya, that's a recipe for a great celestial marriage.
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