According to God is it tolerated to go after a civilly married person?

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wonder if Paul's statement about seeing through a glass darkly has bearing here. 

It has bearing everywhere imo.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, ALarson said:

............................................................  

But I'm not one who believes "no children means no marital relations" as it's naive to believe Joseph didn't have relations with at least some of his plural wives.

The problem is that we know that Joseph was fertile (he was currently having children with Emma), and that at least some of those women must have been.  Odds are that there should have been some pregnancies.  It is quite naive to believe otherwise.  We already have scores of instances in which slave masters have been shown via DNA to have fathered plenty of children back in the day.

[ALarson]

30 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The problem is that we know that Joseph was fertile (he was currently having children with Emma), and that at least some of those women must have been.  Odds are that there should have been some pregnancies.  It is quite naive to believe otherwise.  We already have scores of instances in which slave masters have been shown via DNA to have fathered plenty of children back in the day.

Again, that does not mean there was no consummation with at least some of his plural marriages.  We simply do not know of any children.  That does not mean that pregnancies didn't occur or that there were no children born.  There was a lot of secrecy regarding polygamy and it still is difficult to find many contemporary writings from that time.  Joseph married a lot of women in a short amount of time, so how frequently would he have even been able to be with one of his wives?   And, much was done without Emma's knowledge, so he couldn't be spending a great amount of time with each of these women either.  

It will be interesting to see what the results are for Josephine Sessions Lyon (if the family chooses to share the results).  I actually think it would be really great to learn that she was Joseph's daughter.

You aren't claiming that Emma was the only wife Joseph had marital relations with, are you?  

Edited April 1, 2016 by ALarson

[saemo]

On March 31, 2016 at 1:51 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

It just seems odd in a way. Will Wilford Woodruff be a husband to the 400 ancestors he had sealed to him as wives, or will things be organized during the Millennium and straighten everything out?

A different time with different ideas. During the polygamy era, there seemed to be a sense that prophets and other church officers would have a high status in the afterlife, and that being sealed to them put others into a higher position with them. 

Another example are the people who were sealed to Joseph Smith after his death. Those who were sealed believed it gave them an assurance for the life to come. It's possible Wilford Woodruff saw sealing 400 ancestors to himself as providing the same assurance. 

As far as I know, with the end of polygamy came an end to having multiple sealings to one person. With of course the exception of spouses and children. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by saemo

[Jeanne]

19 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Is it right for people who don't love each other to be sealed together as husband and wife for eternity? Especially if they've never met. I thought love is why we get sealed, but actions seem to show back then they didn't show love to make their most important ceremonies.

For a long time, I wondered in some cases whether love had anything to do with anything.  Certainly people here on this board are sealed to spouses that they love.  I tried to do that too.  But in the 1840's  and into the 1900's in the church, I could not find that anywhere with those that were sealed to many.  My  big motto on polygamy is ..."What a Mess"!!!!

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm pretty sure there may be a lot of sealings that don't last in the eternities because they have to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Not all sealings will have that.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, ALarson said:

Again, that does not mean there was no consummation with at least some of his plural marriages.  We simply do not know of any children.  That does not mean that pregnancies didn't occur or that there were no children born.  There was a lot of secrecy regarding polygamy and it still is difficult to find many contemporary writings from that time.  Joseph married a lot of women in a short amount of time, so how frequently would he have even been able to be with one of his wives?   And, much was done without Emma's knowledge, so he couldn't be spending a great amount of time with each of these women either.  

It will be interesting to see what the results are for Josephine Sessions Lyon (if the family chooses to share the results).  I actually think it would be really great to learn that she was Joseph's daughter.

You aren't claiming that Emma was the only wife Joseph had marital relations with, are you?  

To go by the photos and systematic lists and speculations of Fawn Brodie, we should by now have come up with a Joseph Smith descendant other than by Emma.  We have not.  Like you, Fawn made a lot of assumptions.   However, she was not a trained historian, and so made manifold mistakes in her bio.  We need a fact-based analysis, rather than the wild speculation which we so often get in such matters.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I'm pretty sure there may be a lot of sealings that don't last in the eternities because they have to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Not all sealings will have that.

And what exactly do you think the Holy Spirit of Promise is?

• D&C 132: 7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise of him who is anointed -
Through the medium of his anointed who is appointed to hold the power on the earth -
Never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power is conferred -

Not sure about you, but it seems to me the sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise is done through the authority of the one who holds the keys on the earth.

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

This photo was posted today on April Fool's Day, but goes along with the thread. Poor Emma when you think about it, but lucky Joseph.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

This photo was posted today on April Fool's Day, but goes along with the thread. Poor Emma when you think about it, but lucky Joseph.

That is such a juvenile approach to eternal principles.

[VideoGameJunkie]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That is such a juvenile approach to eternal principles.

I didn't create it. But think about it from Emma's perspective and her heart for once and not just Joseph's point of view. And is it an eternal principle to get sealed to as many women as you can, including other men's wives? If so, why are we not living an eternal principle today if it's eternal and so many people made sacrifices so we could live it? I thought an eternal principle would be God wanting us to find our eternal companion to join as one flesh, like the Bible said. Not find as many companions as you can to add to the list.

Edited April 2, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[VideoGameJunkie]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That is such a juvenile approach to eternal principles.

JLHPROF are you looking forward to being sealed to multiple women in the eternities like Joseph Smith up to Heber J Grant?

[VideoGameJunkie]

I recall hearing from many in the church that Emma and Joseph was one of the greatest love stories ever told.

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I didn't create it. But think about it from Emma's perspective and her heart for once and not just Joseph's point of view. And is it an eternal principle to get sealed to as many women as you can, including other men's wives? If so, why are we not living an eternal principle today if it's eternal and so many people made sacrifices so we could live it? I thought an eternal principle would be God wanting us to find our eternal companion to join as one flesh, like the Bible said. Not find as many companions as you can to add to the list.

Is romance an eternal principle?  How does romance differ from love?

13 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

JLHPROF are you looking forward to being sealed to multiple women in the eternities like Joseph Smith up to Heber J Grant?

I am looking forward to living all the laws of God that he will allow me to be worthy to live and to progressing eternally - no matter what that entails.

5 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I recall hearing from many in the church that Emma and Joseph was one of the greatest love stories ever told.

Again, romantic notions.

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Is romance an eternal principle?  How does romance differ from love?

I am looking forward to living all the laws of God that he will allow me to be worthy to live and to progressing eternally - no matter what that entails.

Again, romantic notions.

 

Romance must be dead because it's the only reason I want to be married. Not biological needs or empty feeling sealings. Love is what matters most. If It doesn't to you then I feel bad for people who don't love. Love is what it's really all about. I've had personal revelation on the matter that was confirmed to me by the spirit. Notice how the 2 great commandments involve the word love. If love isn't a part of polygamy or marriage sealings then they would be completely empty of meaning and pointless. We'd just be zombies obeying. I don't want to be anear obeying emotionless zombie. I want love.

Edited April 2, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

For a long time, I wondered in some cases whether love had anything to do with anything.  Certainly people here on this board are sealed to spouses that they love.  I tried to do that too.  But in the 1840's  and into the 1900's in the church, I could not find that anywhere with those that were sealed to many.  My  big motto on polygamy is ..."What a Mess"!!!!

One never knows.  Emmeline Wells found love with her husband as his seventh wife though it took several decades to bloom.  Her storyis an interesting one for a number of reasons:

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/supporting-saints-life-stories-nineteenth-century-mormons/12-emmeline-b-wells-romantic

[VideoGameJunkie]

A lack in love in a relationship or marriage just leaves a window for lust at best or just no feelings. Again what I call zombie marriages. How romantic.

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Romance must be dead because it's the only reason I want to be married. Not biological needs or empty feeling sealings. Love is what matters most. If It doesn't to you then I feel bad for people who don't love. Love is what it's really all about. I've had personal revelation on the matter that was confirmed to me by the spirit. Notice how the 2 great commandments involve the word love. If love isn't a part of polygamy or marriage sealings then they would be completely empty of meaning and pointless. We'd just be zombies obeying. I don't want to be anear obeying emotionless zombie. I want love.

Love is not the same as romance.  Nobody said anything about an absence of love.

[VideoGameJunkie]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Love is not the same as romance.  Nobody said anything about an absence of love.

The polygamous sealings seemed to lack love. And romance is important in a marriage to show your spouse affection but with Brigham Young married to 55 women and there being only 52 weeks in a year, he had less than a week a year to show his love and romance to a wife. I'd rather be with my wife and show her love and treat her right a lot more than less than a week per year. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I think the biggest act of romance and love shown towards a woman is in the Garden of Eden after Eve eats the apple and is afraid she'll be cast out. Adam decides to eat the fruit knowing the consequences so he and Eve could stay together. On another note I didn't see God giving Adam multiple wives to multiply and replenish the earth, and the same goes for Noah after the flood. And same with Lehi and Nephi populating the new world. All needed to populate as much as they could and only did it with one wife each. 

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

The polygamous sealings seemed to lack love. And romance is important in a marriage to show your spouse affection but with Brigham Young married to 55 women and there being only 52 weeks in a year, he had less than a week a year to show his love and romance to a wife. I'd rather be with my wife and show her love and treat her right a lot more than less than a week per year. 

Various cultures regard marriage in different ways.  I remember a poll taken a few decades ago where Russian men were shown a couple pictures of women and asked which were more attractive to them -- one was a beautiful model and the other was.... well, rather ordinary and overweight.  The majority selected the second woman because she was the more practical choice for what need to be done in the household.  They were not impressed by the model who would not be very useful.

As Nibley and others point out, Brigham Young often sometimes married women who needed the protection of a man as head of the household.  Liza was one of those, and was sent (exiled)  to St. George to take care of the farm there.

Perhaps he would have seen your attitude as being somewhat immature if not selfish.  For one, you assume that love requires it to be romantic, and that women who are unable to find a suitable husband, perhaps who is independently minded and not so romantically inclined -- well, that's just too bad for her.

Edited April 2, 2016 by cdowis

[sheilauk]

3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I think the biggest act of romance and love shown towards a woman is in the Garden of Eden after Eve eats the apple and is afraid she'll be cast out. Adam decides to eat the fruit knowing the consequences so he and Eve could stay together. On another note I didn't see God giving Adam multiple wives to multiply and replenish the earth, and the same goes for Noah after the flood. And same with Lehi and Nephi populating the new world. All needed to populate as much as they could and only did it with one wife each. 

Lilith

And perhaps Adam was being selfish and ate the fruit (it's not an apple) because he didn't want to be alone!  (There are often different points of view - who is right? Consider that both points can be true at the same time).

Edited April 2, 2016 by sheilauk
Added paragraph

[sheilauk]

3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Romance must be dead because it's the only reason I want to be married. Not biological needs or empty feeling sealings. Love is what matters most. If It doesn't to you then I feel bad for people who don't love. Love is what it's really all about. I've had personal revelation on the matter that was confirmed to me by the spirit. Notice how the 2 great commandments involve the word love. If love isn't a part of polygamy or marriage sealings then they would be completely empty of meaning and pointless. We'd just be zombies obeying. I don't want to be anear obeying emotionless zombie. I want love.

You are living in the present when we have been sold the Disney version of marriage.   For centuries people married for practical purposes of care and protection.  Many marriages were arranged or brokered.  Being unmarried was a huge disadvantage particularly for women.  Falling in love wasn't an option, though people grew to love each other. Romeo and Juliet shows how romantic love was viewed and how it was not the usual reason for marriage. People today still have arranged marriages,  why not read about those to learn how it can work or can go wrong.   And romantic love doesnt sustain marriages, if it did the divorce rate would provably be lower!  But I get the impression that you are not interested it other viewpoints.

[cdowis]

5 hours ago, sheilauk said:

And perhaps Adam was being selfish and ate the fruit (it's not an apple) because he didn't want to be alone!  (There are often different points of view - who is right? Consider that both points can be true at the same time).

Interesting.  If he had not partaken of the fruit, he would have violated another commandment -- to multiply and replenish the earth.

[sheilauk]

Agreed.   The story of Adam and Eve is full of the complexities, competing choices and difficulties of life.