flameburns623 Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) Facebook and social networking CAN BE a strategy for activism. Typically, activists represent views which are a minority position within an entity. Too often activist shenanigans are intended merely to embarrass or shame to try to leverage leaders to impose change. minorities desire against the majority view. And the leadership LDS Church does have the right to preserve the basic doctrinal and institutional integrity of the Church. But the Church itself distinguishes between "activism" and merely entertaining a view, perhaps for discussion or dialogue. Between doubt and a thirst for deeper understanding as opposed to caustic exposition of ideas ultimately likely or even intended to weaken or destroy the Church. If I were a leader, I would want a wider view of the whole picture. Which is not likely to emerge here. I'd want to balance the individual agency and personal integrity of members against the right of the Church to act in the interests of itself. Usually, however, social networking posts are a nonevent, a triviality. Posts remain in the Ethernet "forever" in theory: but in practice they are will'o'th'wisps: here today and fogotten tomorrow. Edited March 29, 2016 by flameburns623 2
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I guess it just depends on your perspective. Sometimes the beam in ones own eye can blind a person to the fact that they have crossed a line. To this end a loving Heavenly Father has given us prophets, apostles, bishops, and other church leaders who are charged with particular stewardships. I would hope that if I ever did or said anything that was damaging to anothers testimony that my bishop or stake president would pull me aside and offer some advice. I don't get on FB with any of this stuff, even the essays for this very reason and scared of the consequences or backlash. But mostly don't want others to go through what I have. Until their church leaders bring it up and they bring it up afterwards, I'll not post anything, except for the time about asking when the essay about the Nauvoo polygamy essay would be out on a TBM friend's post when they first came out. But did loan someone the book "Planted", to a friend whom I now visit teach. Her son was struggling with JS's polygamy, which btw, I had nothing to do with, in him knowing about it nor did I bring up. Edited March 28, 2016 by Tacenda
ksfisher Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Her son was struggling with JS's polygamy, which btw, I had nothing to do with, in him knowing about it. If you read this wrong it sounds like you are denying responsibility for Joseph Smith practicing polygamy. Must try harder to read for comprehension.
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ksfisher said: If you read this wrong it sounds like you are denying responsibility for Joseph Smith practicing polygamy. Must try harder to read for comprehension. Ha ha, you stopped just short of the rest of the sentence, was it that irritating to read? . Oops I seen that you quoted before I edited. Edited March 28, 2016 by Tacenda
ksfisher Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Ha ha, you stopped just short of the rest of the sentence, was it that irritating to read? . Oops I seen that you quoted before I edited. Your writing was fine, I must have just been in a "read for humor" frame of mind. Edited March 28, 2016 by ksfisher
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Your writing was fine, I must have just been in a "read for humor" frame of mind. Funny, you're quoting me before I edit my poor writing skills...see not seen, help! Edited March 28, 2016 by Tacenda
consiglieri Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 2 hours ago, ksfisher said: Criticism and opposition, I'm sure you would agree, are two different things. Sometimes it's hard to tell when one crosses the line. It isn't hard at all if one is Mormon.
consiglieri Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 2 hours ago, ksfisher said: I appreciate that you have a negative attitude towards the church. I have no attitude toward the LDS Church which the LDS Church hasn't earned in spades.
Jeanne Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) I know that a while ago, I was so angry that I shut myself off from this thread for a while to settle down. In some sort of outline of what has happened to my TBM friend, this is what has happened, She had some questions about the essays, perhaps they were previously brought up, but she expressed her feelings of confusion and questions she had about them. She is unsure how her own Bishop became aware of this post but was called in to speak with him. She was not unkind and in fact was anxious for him to answer some of her questions. He immediately told her that what she posted was not acceptable though she only stated her opinions and did not in any anger or persuasion of sort to bad mouth any authority. She asked the Bishop if he had read the essays, he said no. She said you are being derelict to your duties per Elder Ballard. He said he had his own reading and he wouldn't go there. He requested that she take the post down and said they would meet again if she didn't. She did not take it down as she didn't understand why...when he had not read the essays. The next meeting was with the Bishop and SP. SP said he, too, had not read the essays but to take the post down. Upset, she said that she would take the post down after they had read the essays. Today, she received a letter stating that there will be a court. They did say she could bring witnesses/evidence and she is. She is bringing the essays. I was sorry that I had changed the conversation here on the OP of this thread, I became angry that this woman who just had questions and family in the church was suddenly having to make decisions based on her thoughts and questions. She has an active family with no intention of leaving the church..but what they have done is some sort of power thing ..at least to me. I could not believe this was happening to her. Yes, I am a resigned former mormon, but I want her to be happy. Whatever decisions LDS and any people do about their own spirituality belongs to them. The Church has made her happy. She has raised her family in the church. But like me, she taught her kids what she was taught and so much of that has done a complete flip flop in those essays. Sure, on facebook of all places she begins a conversation; but how many conversations on facebook are about the Book of Mormon or other church teachings? What is wrong with these essays that it would so upset so many people? Sorry about the rant. Enuf said. This has absolutely nothing to do with Joseph and his peepstones for which I apologize for disrupting. Edited March 28, 2016 by Jeanne 4
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I know that a while ago, I was so angry that I shut myself off from this thread for a while to settle down. In some sort of outline of what has happened to my TBM friend, this is what has happened, She had some questions about the essays, perhaps they were previously brought up, but she expressed her feelings of confusion and questions she had about them. She is unsure how her own Bishop became aware of this post but was called in to speak with him. She was not unkind and in fact was anxious for him to answer some of her questions. He immediately told her that what she posted was not acceptable though she only stated her opinions and did not in any anger or persuasion of sort to bad mouth any authority. She asked the Bishop if he had read the essays, he said no. She said you are being derelict to your duties per Elder Ballard. He said he had his own reading and he wouldn't go there. He requested that she take the post down and said they would meet again if she didn't. She did not take it down as she didn't understand why...when he had not read the essays. The next meeting was with the Bishop and SP. SP said he, too, had not read the essays but to take the post down. Upset, she said that she would take the post down after they had read the essays. Today, she received a letter stating that there will be a court. They did say she could bring witnesses/evidence and she is. She is bringing the essays. I was sorry that I had changed the conversation here on the OP of this thread, I became angry that this woman who just had questions and family in the church was suddenly having to make decisions based on her thoughts and questions. She has an active family with no intention of leaving the church..but what they have done is some sort of power thing ..at least to me. I could not believe this was happening to her. Yes, I am a resigned former mormon, but I want her to be happy. Whatever decisions LDS and any people do about their own spirituality belongs to them. The Church has made her happy. She has raised her family in the church. But like me, she taught her kids what she was taught and so much of that has done a complete flip flop in those essays. Sure, on facebook of all places she begins a conversation; but how many conversations on facebook are about the Book of Mormon or other church teachings? What is wrong with these essays that it would so upset so many people? Sorry about the rant. Enuf said. This has absolutely nothing to do with Joseph and his peepstones for which I apologize for disrupting. This has everything to do with Joseph and the seer stones when you think about it. Wasn't there a quote on here about a leader's reprimanding someone on not teaching that JS used these instead of the plates? I'll have to reread, well this bishop and SP are basically refusing to read the essays or facing the facts too. Edited March 28, 2016 by Tacenda 2
Calm Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) If she has questions and wants someone to talk to from a faithful POV, you could send her to FairMormon. Not saying she will definitely get answers, but she will be able to engage with those who know what she is talking about. (not the wiki, but the contact us function) Edited March 28, 2016 by Calm 4
Keq82 Posted March 28, 2016 Author Posted March 28, 2016 27 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I know that a while ago, I was so angry that I shut myself off from this thread for a while to settle down. In some sort of outline of what has happened to my TBM friend, this is what has happened, She had some questions about the essays, perhaps they were previously brought up, but she expressed her feelings of confusion and questions she had about them. She is unsure how her own Bishop became aware of this post but was called in to speak with him. She was not unkind and in fact was anxious for him to answer some of her questions. He immediately told her that what she posted was not acceptable though she only stated her opinions and did not in any anger or persuasion of sort to bad mouth any authority. She asked the Bishop if he had read the essays, he said no. She said you are being derelict to your duties per Elder Ballard. He said he had his own reading and he wouldn't go there. He requested that she take the post down and said they would meet again if she didn't. She did not take it down as she didn't understand why...when he had not read the essays. The next meeting was with the Bishop and SP. SP said he, too, had not read the essays but to take the post down. Upset, she said that she would take the post down after they had read the essays. Today, she received a letter stating that there will be a court. They did say she could bring witnesses/evidence and she is. She is bringing the essays. I was sorry that I had changed the conversation here on the OP of this thread, I became angry that this woman who just had questions and family in the church was suddenly having to make decisions based on her thoughts and questions. She has an active family with no intention of leaving the church..but what they have done is some sort of power thing ..at least to me. I could not believe this was happening to her. Yes, I am a resigned former mormon, but I want her to be happy. Whatever decisions LDS and any people do about their own spirituality belongs to them. The Church has made her happy. She has raised her family in the church. But like me, she taught her kids what she was taught and so much of that has done a complete flip flop in those essays. Sure, on facebook of all places she begins a conversation; but how many conversations on facebook are about the Book of Mormon or other church teachings? What is wrong with these essays that it would so upset so many people? Sorry about the rant. Enuf said. This has absolutely nothing to do with Joseph and his peepstones for which I apologize for disrupting. No worries! It's too bad your friend has to go through all of this; it's completely unecessary, IMO. 1
Jeanne Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: If she has questions and wants someone to talk to from a faithful POV, you could send her to FairMormon. Not saying she will definitely get answers, but she will be able to engage with those who know what she is talking about. (not the wiki, but the contact us function) I will do that. Thank you
mfbukowski Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) 23 hours ago, Keq82 said: I agree 100%. The implication that this has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with the church is absolutely RIDICULOUS. It is like protesting that the Bernie Sanders campaign says you do not belong in the campaign because you are a libertarian. If you do not believe the principles, of course you do not belong. Absolutely absurd assertion. Edited March 29, 2016 by mfbukowski 2
mfbukowski Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 20 hours ago, consiglieri said: I have no attitude toward the LDS Church which the LDS Church hasn't earned in spades. That is like the wife beater saying "YOU made me do it! You deserve everything I gave you" 2
Keq82 Posted March 29, 2016 Author Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: The implication that this has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with the church is absolutely RIDICULOUS. It is like protesting that the Bernie Sanders campaign says you do not belong in the campaign because you are a libertarian. If you do not believe the principles, of course you do not belong. Absolutely absurd assertion. Yeah...because the church has never excommunicated somebody for critizing the church (even when the criticism has been true).
ksfisher Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Keq82 said: Yeah...because the church has never excommunicated somebody for critizing the church (even when the criticism has been true). That's an easy charge for you to make. It would be harder if you were asked to provide an example of when a person was excommunicated for criticizing the church, the person being correct and the church was in error. Even harder if you were asked to provide both sides of the issue (being objective as you might call it) as the church considers the proceedings of disciplinary councils to be confidential. Edited March 29, 2016 by ksfisher 2
mfbukowski Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Keq82 said: Yeah...because the church has never excommunicated somebody for critizing the church (even when the criticism has been true). Hello? What does this have to do with what I said? 2
mfbukowski Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: That's an easy charge for you to make. It would be harder if you were asked to provide example of when a person was excommunicated for criticizing the church, the person being correct and the church was in error. Even harder if you were asked to provide both sides of the issue (being objective as you might call it) as the church considers the proceedings of disciplinary councils to be confidential. He makes it up as he goes. 2
consiglieri Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: That is like the wife beater saying "YOU made me do it! You deserve everything I gave you" As between me and the LDS Church, it is hardly me who is the wife beater . . .
consiglieri Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, ksfisher said: That's an easy charge for you to make. It would be harder if you were asked to provide an example of when a person was excommunicated for criticizing the church, the person being correct and the church was in error. Even harder if you were asked to provide both sides of the issue (being objective as you might call it) as the church considers the proceedings of disciplinary councils to be confidential. D. Michael Quinn. Brent Metcalfe. Grant Palmer. Marisa and Carson Calderwood. That wasn't so hard after all . . .
Keq82 Posted March 29, 2016 Author Posted March 29, 2016 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Hello? What does this have to do with what I said? You said: "The implication that this has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with the church is absolutely RIDICULOUS."
ksfisher Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: D. Michael Quinn. Brent Metcalfe. Grant Palmer. Marisa and Carson Calderwood. That wasn't so hard after all . . . Please now, provide your objective opinion as to why these people were excommunicated. And I believe that while you're researching this you'll find that Palmer was not excommunicated. Edited March 30, 2016 by ksfisher 2
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 5 hours ago, consiglieri said: As between me and the LDS Church, it is hardly me who is the wife beater . . .
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 4 hours ago, Keq82 said: You said: "The implication that this has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with the church is absolutely RIDICULOUS." I guess you did not hear me What does that have to do with what I said? Trust me. I know what i said.
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