flameburns623 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 5 hours ago, ksfisher said: Please now, provide your objective opinion as to why these people were excommunicated. And I believe that while you're researching this you'll find that Palmer was not excommunicated. Palmer was disfellowshipped in a seven hour Bishop's Court after publishing research via a non-LDS press. Per Wikipedia, Palmer liked being Mormon and was grateful he was disfellowshipped and not excommunicated. However, he seldom or never attended the LDS Church again and he continued to do research and to publish materials which raise hard questions and bring the official accounts of some matters under scrutiny. A couple of years or so ago, another Bishop's Court was scheduled to be convened. Palmer indicated that he had advance notice that excommunication would be a foregone conclusion if the court proceeded. He tendered his resignation on that basis. Under the circumstances, whether Palmer was excommunicated, disfellowshipped, or resigned seems a quibble. He apparently was hounded out. Whether this was a desirable thing or not, someone with a broader awareness of the issues can address. I do not know if Palmer was/is a modest researcher whose work has made some uncomfortable; or if he was a militant, strident activist, bent on fundamental change of the Church. Others can speak to this. 1
Calm Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 Imo, Palmer was someone who drew a salary from the Church while working on a book for decades that called it a fraud after having promised to quit and he was a coward, lazy or greedy(take your pick) because he waited until he retired and his pension could not be taken away to publish his book. The book wasn't impressive, the only interesting part was so far fetched as to be nonsence imo (the idea that Joseph Smith knew the Goden Pot story and used it for his Moroni story). He has tried to stay in the public eye by making extreme, undocumented claims, but he isn't much heard from. He is one of the few critics I have no respect for if you can tell, not because of his criticisms but because he lied for decades in order to milk the Church for a paycheck instead of going out and getting a job from another employer and then publish his book, but he wanted to have his cake and eat it too and have the Church pay for it. 1
Calm Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 Imo, Palmer was someone who drew a salary from the Church while working on a book for decades that called it a fraud after having promised to quit and he was a coward, lazy or greedy(take your pick) because he waited until he retired and his pension could not be taken away to publish his book. The book wasn't impressive, the only interesting part was so far fetched as to be nonsence imo (the idea that Joseph Smith knew the Goden Pot story and used it for his Moroni story). He has tried to stay in the public eye by making extreme, undocumented claims, but he isn't much heard from. He is one of the few critics I have no respect for if you can tell, not because of his criticisms but because he lied for decades in order to milk the Church for a paycheck instead of going out and getting a job from another employer and then publish his book, but he wanted to have his cake and eat it too and have the Church pay for it. 1
Tacenda Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, Calm said: Imo, Palmer was someone who drew a salary from the Church while working on a book for decades that called it a fraud after having promised to quit and he was a coward, lazy or greedy(take your pick) because he waited until he retired and his pension could not be taken away to publish his book. The book wasn't impressive, the only interesting part was so far fetched as to be nonsence imo (the idea that Joseph Smith knew the Goden Pot story and used it for his Moroni story). He has tried to stay in the public eye by making extreme, undocumented claims, but he isn't much heard from. He is one of the few critics I have no respect for if you can tell, not because of his criticisms but because he lied for decades in order to milk the Church for a paycheck instead of going out and getting a job from another employer and then publish his book, but he wanted to have his cake and eat it too and have the Church pay for it. I had no idea that Palmer wrote his book for decades, it hadn't dawned on me. So do you think he lost his testimony decades ago also? I'd have to check into it unless you have references. I guess I didn't take him to be a scoundrel, or whatever pertains to your description. All I know is in a Mormon Stories podcast I believe, he mentions his faith crises was worse than treatments for cancer and even the death of his wife. I can relate.
flameburns623 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Calm said: Imo, Palmer was someone who drew a salary from the Church while working on a book for decades that called it a fraud after having promised to quit and he was a coward, lazy or greedy(take your pick) because he waited until he retired and his pension could not be taken away to publish his book. The book wasn't impressive, the only interesting part was so far fetched as to be nonsence imo (the idea that Joseph Smith knew the Goden Pot story and used it for his Moroni story). He has tried to stay in the public eye by making extreme, undocumented claims, but he isn't much heard from. He is one of the few critics I have no respect for if you can tell, not because of his criticisms but because he lied for decades in order to milk the Church for a paycheck instead of going out and getting a job from another employer and then publish his book, but he wanted to have his cake and eat it too and have the Church pay for it. Fair Enuff. Never heard much of the fellow. A lot of the dissident LDS are sociopolitically progressive: I'm more traditionalist. I wasn't listening to another Throw-My-Phone-Against-The-Wall/Cash-In-My-Phone-Insurance podcast to find out what this guy was about. I wanted to speak mainly to the point raised by ksfisher that Palmer wasn't ex'ed. (No:I don't actually throw my phone around. Some podcast speakers make me want to sometimes, though.) Edited March 30, 2016 by flameburns623
Calm Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I had no idea that Palmer wrote his book for decades, it hadn't dawned on me. So do you think he lost his testimony decades ago also? I'd have to check into it unless you have references. I guess I didn't take him to be a scoundrel, or whatever pertains to your description. All I know is in a Mormon Stories podcast I believe, he mentions his faith crises was worse than treatments for cancer and even the death of his wife. I can relate. First draft was known to exist in 1985 (wiki has the date iirc), he retired in 2001 or 2 I believe.
Calm Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 4 minutes ago, flameburns623 said: Fair Enuff. Never heard much of the fellow. A lot of the dissident LDS are sociopolitically progressive: I'm more traditionalist. I wasn't listening to another Throw-My-Phone-Against-The-Wall/Cash-In-My-Phone-Insurance podcast to find out what this guy was about. I wanted to speak mainly to the point raised by ksfisher that Palmer wasn't ex'ed. His stuff isn't worth wasting time on. Better critics out there. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, cdowis said: One man's crap is another man's hyperbole. The gun displayed in a museum is not the same exposure as relating the story of the gun in church historical accounts of the martyrdom. But it has been related in Church historical accounts of the martyrdom. Calm cited the CES text Church History in the Fulness of Times as an example. And the point is, it is absolutely stupid to claim the Church hides the fact that Joseph had a pistol when the very pistol he possessed is on display in its museum and is identified as such. Quote If you find me offensive, you may want to put me in ignore mode. There is more to come, and you may find yourself suffering another attack of hysteria. No, I've never put anybody in "ignore mode," and I don't intend to start with you. I hope you don't intend to post more bull----, but if you do, I'll be thus able to identify it as such and point it out if and when it comes to my attention. 1
SeekerB Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 For the Seer Stone to work it had to be more than a rock, since rocks are inert and don't do anything. I don't believe Joseph used the stone as something to focus on based on the story of the stone being switched out as a prank and Joseph couldn't see anything with the phony one. We have computers on our wrists more powerful than a room sized one from the middle 20th century. I think the Seer Stone is a device of some type, not just a rock.
flameburns623 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 On 3/28/2016 at 3:51 PM, consiglieri said: I have no attitude toward the LDS Church which the LDS Church hasn't earned in spades. Respectfully, it fair astonies me that you are apparently a Mormon and I am not. I LIKE Mormonism: you telegraph the impression that you do NOT. 3
rodheadlee Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 On 3/28/2016 at 10:18 AM, Jeanne said: Why..because it is about the Mormon Church? Private..secret...kind of the LDS way. Doubt your doubts..keep it to yourself. We live in a different world now. I am not going to post on this thread anymore. I am just so angry! It's not the Mormon Church. We do not worship Mormon. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 53 minutes ago, SeekerB said: For the Seer Stone to work it had to be more than a rock, since rocks are inert and don't do anything. I don't believe Joseph used the stone as something to focus on based on the story of the stone being switched out as a prank and Joseph couldn't see anything with the phony one. We have computers on our wrists more powerful than a room sized one from the middle 20th century. I think the Seer Stone is a device of some type, not just a rock. That incident might mean nothing more than that the Lord was not going to put up with Martin Harris's tomfoolery. It had the effect of assuaging Harris's doubts. That may have been the Lord's intent. Whatever the medium or means employed, the Lord will always grant divine revelation and spiritual gifts on His terms, not ours. Edited March 30, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
consiglieri Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 1 hour ago, flameburns623 said: Respectfully, it fair astonies me that you are apparently a Mormon and I am not. I LIKE Mormonism: you telegraph the impression that you do NOT. Don't get me wrong. Mormonism has much to recommend it. Unfortunately, the leadership has been distancing the LDS Church from the good parts of Mormonism for some time now.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 On 3/28/2016 at 0:48 AM, Keq82 said: Freedom of thought...freedom to form your own opinions, regardless if they do or do not conform to what the church approves. On 3/28/2016 at 0:51 AM, Scott Lloyd said: This is a sentence fragment. There is a subject but no predicate. Care to rephrase your post, this time writing a coherent statement? On 3/28/2016 at 11:08 AM, Jeanne said: Not really. I think you get it Scott. Sorry that I am not an English major. I was addressing Keq82, not you. Why are you reacting? Are you and Keq82 the same person?
Scott Lloyd Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Don't get me wrong. Mormonism has much to recommend it. Unfortunately, the leadership has been distancing the LDS Church from the good parts of Mormonism for some time now. I think I detect the faintest beginnings of the formation of a splinter group here.
consiglieri Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 15 hours ago, Calm said: Imo, Palmer was someone who drew a salary from the Church while working on a book for decades that called it a fraud after having promised to quit and he was a coward, lazy or greedy(take your pick) because he waited until he retired and his pension could not be taken away to publish his book. The book wasn't impressive, the only interesting part was so far fetched as to be nonsence imo (the idea that Joseph Smith knew the Goden Pot story and used it for his Moroni story). This has become a common FAIRMormon meme in discussing Grant Palmer. Rather than engaging his research, pretty much all of which has now been admitted by the LDS Church, the attack becomes his teaching seminary while undergoing his faith crisis, and continuing to draw a salary from the Church. The other side of the coin, of course, is the pressure the LDS Church put on Grant to pretend he was still a believing Mormon even when his faith was crumbling. This pressure is exerted on all members of the LDS Church, to pretend everything is okay even when it's not. But the pressure on a seminary teacher is greater because if he lets his feelings show, he loses his career. I have a hard time faulting Grant Palmer on this one.
consiglieri Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think I detect the faintest beginnings of the formation of a splinter group here. I am a lone voice crying in the wilderness, "Make straight the way of the Consiglieri."
Jeanne Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 48 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I was addressing Keq82, not you. Why are you reacting? Are you and Keq82 the same person? Your quote showed up on my feed. Sorry if I misunderstood. No wonder I was ticked. If Keq82 is a wealthy man, yeah, we can be the same person. 4
cdowis Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Rather than engaging his research, pretty much all of which has now been admitted by the LDS Church, the attack becomes his teaching seminary while undergoing his faith crisis, and continuing to draw a salary from the Church. CFR. Who was attacking him, and where were the attacks published. Tell us your source of information about these attacks -- from the church? The other side of the coin, of course, is the pressure the LDS Church put on Grant to pretend he was still a believing Mormon even when his faith was crumbling.CFR. What LDS church officials were talking to him? How was pressure applied == perhaps they were reminding him that he was an employee of the church, and the church, like ANY employer can tell him the conditions of continued employment. That makes the church the EVIL EMPIRE to actually treat him as an employee. This pressure is exerted on all members of the LDS Church, to pretend everything is okay even when it's not. This requires a very big CFR. So big, that I suggest that you read the rules of the forum regarding replying to a CFR. I suggest that you gather your sources. i remind you this is not a youtube forum and you make such assertions, be prepared to prove your assertion.
Keq82 Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I was addressing Keq82, not you. Why are you reacting? Are you and Keq82 the same person? No...we are not the same person...are you paranoid or something?
Keq82 Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: Your quote showed up on my feed. Sorry if I misunderstood. No wonder I was ticked. If Keq82 is a wealthy man, yeah, we can be the same person. It's tax return season...so I just got my walking around $! 1
Jeanne Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, Keq82 said: It's tax return season...so I just got my walking around $! I will be in touch for my half. I got back my tax return and it paid my state taxes..
Scott Lloyd Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 22 minutes ago, Keq82 said: No...we are not the same person...are you paranoid or something? I didn't seriously think so. But on the Internet, where sock puppets abound, you never really know. I once asked someone a question, and he inadvertently responded in his sock puppet persona.
Calm Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 4 hours ago, consiglieri said: This has become a common FAIRMormon meme in discussing Grant Palmer. Rather than engaging his research, pretty much all of which has now been admitted by the LDS Church, the attack becomes his teaching seminary while undergoing his faith crisis, and continuing to draw a salary from the Church. The other side of the coin, of course, is the pressure the LDS Church put on Grant to pretend he was still a believing Mormon even when his faith was crumbling. This pressure is exerted on all members of the LDS Church, to pretend everything is okay even when it's not. But the pressure on a seminary teacher is greater because if he lets his feelings show, he loses his career. I have a hard time faulting Grant Palmer on this one. I would fault anyone who worked for a company they badmouthed in private for 15 plus years and then upon retirement when no financial consequence could be made, published his criticism. 5 years or even anything under ten years...yeah, I can see where changing jobs can be frightening and the retirement issue outweighs other options, but I have known too many people who have been brave enough to start fresh and other people willing to be reliable employees to be able to see Palmer's choice to continue to work both on his book and for the Church at the same time as having personal integrity. This is a completely separate issue however from the quality of his book. His book could have been magnificent even if he was a jerk in his employment. It was not however. Nor has his ckaims since then (for example, he has claimed that he was told by a General Authority that all of the Apostles know the Church is not true) been impressive. Have you read the Golden Pot? There are much better criticisms and critics out there, Dan Vogel for example.
Recommended Posts