No Pics of Seer Stones in our Churches

[Keq82]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I didn't seriously think so. But on the Internet, where sock puppets abound, you never really know.

I once asked someone a question, and he inadvertently responded in his sock puppet persona.

I see.  There are definitely a lot of weirdos out there!  

[Scott Lloyd]

On March 30, 2016 at 0:15 AM, Calm said:

First draft was known to exist in 1985 (wiki has the date iirc), he retired in 2001 or 2 I believe.

He wrote the original draft under a pen name, Paul Pry, so he could preserve the CES mask. At the time (early 1980s) he based much of it on the products of now-convicted forger and murderer Mark Hofmann. When Hofmann's documents were later revealed as fakes, it left his book without much substance. Hence, as Calm has remarked, it is not very impressive. 

Last I remember hearing from him, he was going public with some outlandish tale about a General Authority coming to him under cover of darkness to reveal a conspiracy among all the General Authorities about how they know Mormonism is false but they need to keep everybody in the dark for their own good. Or something like that. 

It would be quite the earthquake if it were true, but I think the fact it hasn't gone anywhere is a pretty good sign of how few believe him. 

I suspect the man is not well. I hope he gets the help he needs. 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

Have you read the Golden Pot?  There are much better criticisms and critics out there, Dan Vogel for example.

Other than that chapter, I felt his book was pretty well written and quite accurate (I didn't always agree with his conclusions), but it's been quite awhile since I read it.  I know critics always scoff at the theory regarding the Golden Pot, and that was entertaining to read  

But his book was "an insider's view"....he was an insider (in the church and within the CES) and whether you agree with him or not, he got a lot right (from what I remember).  I was not aware that he'd been writing it for so many years, though.

His book, The Incomparable Jesus, was quite good as well, have you read that?  (I read it years ago too....)

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, ALarson said:

Other than that chapter, I felt his book was pretty well written and quite accurate (I didn't always agree with his conclusions), but it's been quite awhile since I read it.  I know critics always scoff at he theory regarding the Golden Pot, and that was entertaining to read  

But his book was "an insider's view"....he was an insider (in the church and within the CES) and whether you agree with him or not, he got a lot right (from what I remember).  I was not aware that he'd been writing it for so many years, though.

His book, The Incomparable Jesus, was quite good as well, have you read that?  (I read it years ago too....)

 

I saw him recently and he seems perfectly fine, Scott.  His picture on Mormon Think I believe?  Needs to go, because he appears just a little angry.  I'm going to have to research on him being deceiving the whole time writing the book.  I know he said when he was struggling with belief he asked to be released from teaching in the CES and instead was given another calling and taught the Bible to those in jail.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Tacenda

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I saw him recently and he seems perfectly fine Calm.  His picture on Mormon Think I believe?  Needs to go, because he appears just a little angry.  I'm going to have to research on him being deceiving the whole time writing the book.  I know he said when he was struggling with belief he asked to be released from teaching in the CES and instead was given a another calling and taught the Bible to those in jail.

I can only imagine being in his position and even though one can say he should have quit when he started doubting, it's not that cut and dried.  This was his employment and he was supporting a family and had many years invested in this profession.  My impression of him is that he's a good man.

I'd imagine it was a slow process of questioning and searching for answers over many years before he decided to actually leave the church.  I personally know of several professors at both Brigham Young and BYU-I who have doubts and questions (and no, I can't name names....but I've personally talked to them and one is a close member of my family).  Should they quit?

[consiglieri]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I would fault anyone who worked for a company they badmouthed in private for 15 plus years and then upon retirement when no financial consequence could be made, published his criticism.  5 years or even anything under ten years...yeah, I can see where changing jobs can be frightening and the retirement issue outweighs other options, but I have known too many people who have been brave enough to start fresh and other people willing to be reliable employees to be able to see Palmer's choice to continue to work both on his book and for the Church at the same time as having personal integrity.

This is a completely separate issue however from the quality of his book.  His book could have been magnificent even if he was a jerk in his employment.  It was not however.  Nor has his ckaims since then (for example, he has claimed that he was told by a  General Authority that all of the Apostles know the Church is not true) been impressive.

Have you read the Golden Pot?  There are much better criticisms and critics out there, Dan Vogel for example.

This is another common meme when it comes to apologetic reviews of Palmer's book--to go after his parallels with The Golden Pot.

My recollection is that this was the one original contribution he made in his book, the lion's share of which dealt with previously published issues that have largely been admitted by the Church in their essays.

While Palmer's Golden Pot argument may not be especially strong, at least he is doing something original, and it should be said that the parallels he draws are no weaker than most of the parallel's drawn by apologetics between LDS scriptures and ancient writings and practices.

As to your first point, a faith transition is not something that happens overnight.  It takes time.  Usually years.  Many years.  I imagine it was so with Palmer.

As he struggled his way through this crisis, he made notes of his research.  He finally got to the point where he decided that, in order to be intellectually honest with himself, he had to reject many LDS Church truth claims.  By this point, he was approaching retirement.

He continued to teach seminary from a faithful perspective to his students, though he no longer believed what he was teaching.  I am aware of no allegations that he used his teaching position in an attempt to sway the beliefs of his students.

It is because of his status as a retired seminary teacher that he has come under such attack by the apologetic community.  He is seen as a Judas.

And it is only too easy to focus on his drawing a salary from the Church while not necessarily believing what he taught to be true. 

But really, there were no complaints about his teaching, so why should it be that big a deal?  He did the job he was asked to do, and he got paid for it.  I am not sure what the problem is here.

The real problem, I think, is that the LDS apologetic community feels betrayed by one of their own for writing such a book, and they have pulled out all the stops to assassinate Palmer's character and make fun of his Golden Pot theory rather than actually deal with the substantive criticisms raised in his book.

The strength of Palmer's book is that he is an "insider."  The criticism of Palmer is therefore designed to make him an "outsider."

This criticism is not especially persuasive.

 

 

[Tacenda]

39 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I can only imagine being in his position and even though one can say he should have quit when he started doubting, it's not that cut and dried.  This was his employment and he was supporting a family and had many years invested in this profession.  My impression of him is that he's a good man.

I'd imagine it was a slow process of questioning and searching for answers over many years before he decided to actually leave the church.  I personally know of several professors at both Brigham Young and BYU-I who have doubts and questions (and no, I can't name names....but I've personally talked to them and one is a close member of my family).  Should they quit?

I mentioned this earlier but something that hit home was what he said after going through the faith restructuring.  He said it was worse than having cancer treatments, and even losing his wife who passed away.  This doesn't seem to be the kind of man that is squirrely to me.  And I relate very well the pain, I've been going through this going on 10 years.  

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

I would fault anyone who worked for a company they badmouthed in private for 15 plus years and then upon retirement when no financial consequence could be made, published his criticism.  5 years or even anything under ten years...yeah, I can see where changing jobs can be frightening and the retirement issue outweighs other options, but I have known too many people who have been brave enough to start fresh and other people willing to be reliable employees to be able to see Palmer's choice to continue to work both on his book and for the Church at the same time as having personal integrity.

This is a completely separate issue however from the quality of his book.  His book could have been magnificent even if he was a jerk in his employment.  It was not however.  Nor has his ckaims since then (for example, he has claimed that he was told by a  General Authority that all of the Apostles know the Church is not true) been impressive.

Have you read the Golden Pot?  There are much better criticisms and critics out there, Dan Vogel for example.

Don't fault me Calm, I work for Walmart!

[Jeanne]

47 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

This is another common meme when it comes to apologetic reviews of Palmer's book--to go after his parallels with The Golden Pot.

My recollection is that this was the one original contribution he made in his book, the lion's share of which dealt with previously published issues that have largely been admitted by the Church in their essays.

While Palmer's Golden Pot argument may not be especially strong, at least he is doing something original, and it should be said that the parallels he draws are no weaker than most of the parallel's drawn by apologetics between LDS scriptures and ancient writings and practices.

As to your first point, a faith transition is not something that happens overnight.  It takes time.  Usually years.  Many years.  I imagine it was so with Palmer.

As he struggled his way through this crisis, he made notes of his research.  He finally got to the point where he decided that, in order to be intellectually honest with himself, he had to reject many LDS Church truth claims.  By this point, he was approaching retirement.

He continued to teach seminary from a faithful perspective to his students, though he no longer believed what he was teaching.  I am aware of no allegations that he used his teaching position in an attempt to sway the beliefs of his students.

It is because of his status as a retired seminary teacher that he has come under such attack by the apologetic community.  He is seen as a Judas.

And it is only too easy to focus on his drawing a salary from the Church while not necessarily believing what he taught to be true. 

But really, there were no complaints about his teaching, so why should it be that big a deal?  He did the job he was asked to do, and he got paid for it.  I am not sure what the problem is here.

The real problem, I think, is that the LDS apologetic community feels betrayed by one of their own for writing such a book, and they have pulled out all the stops to assassinate Palmer's character and make fun of his Golden Pot theory rather than actually deal with the substantive criticisms raised in his book.

The strength of Palmer's book is that he is an "insider."  The criticism of Palmer is therefore designed to make him an "outsider."

This criticism is not especially persuasive.

 

 

A couple of rep points here.  C'mon mods..let us give the guy some hoots!

[Jeanne]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He wrote the original draft under a pen name, Paul Pry, so he could preserve the CES mask. At the time (early 1980s) he based much of it on the products of now-convicted forger and murderer Mark Hofmann. When Hofmann's documents were later revealed as fakes, it left his book without much substance. Hence, as Calm has remarked, it is not very impressive. 

Last I remember hearing from him, he was going public with some outlandish tale about a General Authority coming to him under cover of darkness to reveal a conspiracy among all the General Authorities about how they know Mormonism is false but they need to keep everybody in the dark for their own good. Or something like that. 

It would be quite the earthquake if it were true, but I think the fact it hasn't gone anywhere is a pretty good sign of how few believe him. 

I suspect the man is not well. I hope he gets the help he needs. 

It is a shame that you would have to use another name to write a book isn't it?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Don't fault me Calm, I work for Walmart!

Do you campaign against Walmart during your off hours or tell customers their products are crap?  If not, why would I fault you?

Are you currently writing an expose about Walmart but waiting to publish it when you have retired so you won't lose your pension?

Edited March 31, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

Not putting me in the right frame of mind besides being too distracting from what I have to do today, so withdrawing from the Palmer discussion.  I realize others view his work and his actions differently than I do.  That does not affect my opinion of them in any way.  The things I value most in relationships with others may not be as important to others, that does not imply they are immoral or amoral or not as wise; just that they have had different experiences in life imo.

No problem if someone wants to criticize my comments.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Calm

[ALarson]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you campaign against Walmart during your off hours or tell customers their products are crap?  If not, why would I fault you?

Was Grant Palmer doing this (with fellow church members or others) while he was still employed by the church?  This is a sincere question as I really don't know (I wasn't even aware that he was writing letters or notes that he used for his book which he published years later....or that he was writing the book much earlier, etc.).  

But was he publicly speaking out against the church during his "off hours" while he was still working for the church?

.

Edited March 31, 2016 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you campaign against Walmart during your off hours or tell customers their products are crap?  If not, why would I fault you?

Are you currently writing an expose about Walmart but waiting to publish it when you have retired so you won't lose your pension?

All of us talk a lot in the store about what is unfair.  I open my mouth when I think a customer deserves better product at a better price.  On a Walmart site online, I am trying to petition a union.  (But that remains between just a few of us).  I want to share with all of you here what I know.  First off all, my bosses wanted me to take the scrap doughnuts (in the doughnut case), put them in a 12 count box, mark them down and sell them.  Some of those doughnuts in the case are a mess with hand prints and stuff.  I refused.  But not for long..I do it...or I am fired.  Part of my job is to go in the freezer and unload pallets of frozen bread and such. The bread is 40 pounds a box, by the time I am on the 25th box, I can't move.  I am 60, 5 ft.2", weigh less than a hundred pounds. They said if I can't do it, go home.    I would love to write a book!!  And the big raise????  21 cents.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Jeanne

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Was Grant Palmer doing this (with fellow church members or others) while he was still employed by the church?  This is a sincere question as I really don't know (I wasn't even aware that he was writing letters or notes that he used for his book which he published years later....or that he was writing the book much earlier, etc.).  

But was he publicly speaking out against the church during his "off hours" while he was still working for the church?

.

When I am in a better mood, I will try and remember to PM you this.  It is a hard day for me and I need to do things to lift my spirits right now (which talking on the board usually does save for a few topics) and talking about Palmer pushes some buttons for me, I am definitely not approaching it from an unbiased POV.

[Calm]

Jeanne, you need to decide what is best for you no matter what others think.  I hope you are looking for other job opportunities if you are not happy with how things are done.  I know a lot of people have to take jobs they hate from crap employers to feed families and in many cases I have no problem with activism to change things for the better.

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

When I am in a better mood, I will try and remember to PM you this.  It is a hard day for me and I need to do things to lift my spirits right now (which talking on the board usually does save for a few topics) and talking about Palmer pushes some buttons for me, I am definitely not approaching it from an unbiased POV.

I do admire you for owning up to your feelings and knowing when to back out when you want to be fair.  Try to have nice evening!

[Jeanne]

BTW guys...my friend had her court last night.  With her essays and explainations..she was exed afterall.  A sad day for her today.  She said it was done with kindness, very civil and lasted just 15 minutes.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Jeanne

[ALarson]

46 minutes ago, Calm said:

When I am in a better mood, I will try and remember to PM you this.  It is a hard day for me and I need to do things to lift my spirits right now (which talking on the board usually does save for a few topics) and talking about Palmer pushes some buttons for me, I am definitely not approaching it from an unbiased POV.

Hey, don't worry about it.  Just take care of yourself and feel better!!

[consiglieri]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you currently writing an expose about Walmart but waiting to publish it when you have retired so you won't lose your pension?

Wouldn't a person's feelings about such a course of conduct depend largely on their view of Walmart?

[consiglieri]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

BTW guys...my friend had her court last night.  With her essays and explainations..she was exed afterall.  A sad day for her today.  She said it was done with kindness, very civil and lasted just 15 minutes.

It is a sorry and tragic state of affairs that LDS Church leadership is now in the business of excommunicating members who say not only the truth, but what the Church has already admitted is the truth.

Blood is in the water from the high-profile excommunications of the past two years.

And your friend's bishop and stake president are earning their excommunication merit badges that will stand them in good stead when the next opening for advancement comes along.

Please give your friend my personal condolences and apologies on behalf of the Church of which I am still a member.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, consiglieri said:

It is a sorry and tragic state of affairs that LDS Church leadership is now in the business of excommunicating members who say not only the truth, but what the Church has already admitted is the truth.

Blood is in the water from the high-profile excommunications of the past two years.

And your friend's bishop and stake president are earning their excommunication merit badges that will stand them in good stead when the next opening for advancement comes along.

Please give your friend my personal condolences and apologies on behalf of the Church of which I am still a member.

Thank you..and I will tell her that she has friends in the church that more than understand.  A whole life of faith and service done in 15 minutes.  How long consig does it take for a missionary to convert someone?  This is so messed up.

[consiglieri]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you..and I will tell her that she has friends in the church that more than understand.  A whole life of faith and service done in 15 minutes.  How long consig does it take for a missionary to convert someone?  This is so messed up.

We are currently experiencing the Mormon version of Kristallnacht.

Good Mormons will stand idly by and say nothing.  Some will even cheer.

But good people who happen to be Mormon will raise their voices in a chorus of condemnation.

In a world of "what would Jesus do," this isn't even in the same solar system.

Poster and his Nazis removed.

[Keq82]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

We are currently experiencing the Mormon version of Kristallnacht.

Good Mormons will stand idly by and say nothing.  Some will even cheer.

But good people who happen to be Mormon will raise their voices in a chorus of condemnation.

In a world of "what would Jesus do," this isn't even in the same solar system.

As a member, my condolesences as well. This was completely unnecessary, IMO.  You can go from a well-respected member to nothing in no time at all in our church.  I have a friend who was excommunicated, and, unfortunately, many of his friends and family members stopped talking to him and treated him almost as an untouchable.  The LDS culture needs a change; just because somebody doesn't hold the standard testimony, opinions, and beliefs, it doesn't require the church to kick members out.  I've personally seen members treat another struggling member differently (in a negative way) after they found out he smoked cigarettes.  Should the way we treat others be based on their beliefs and/or actions?  

[Calm]

We don't know the details of what her opinions were.  Jeanne's cooments imply it was more than just posting links to the gospel essays.  I don't see how we should draw any conclusions based on the limited info given, though I am in no way suggesting Jeanne shard that info.