No Pics of Seer Stones in our Churches

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I used to be in the gallery business, and nearly finished a masters in art history as well as philosophy.  I got out of the business when I found out that it was impossible for me to deal with artists in business, BUT I DO understand artists.

Your post is totally accurate in my experience. 

My mom is an artist as well as several inlaws and some friends over the years.  While undoubtedly there are ones that will just paint the picture that is requested, I doubt the picture is then worth much in terms of art.

What is probably wanted is more the mentality that goes along with illustrating textbooks, but that type of work doesn't really speak to people.  Sweat's pictures of the translation themselves are a good example of how historical art tends to narrow the experience with the art itself.  Information is given, but nothing is really opened up in the soul no matter how hard he tried, imo.  I don't think that means such work is unnecessary, it is just that the good artists won't be that interested in depicting such.  And the artwork itself will be highly forgettable.

[Scott Lloyd]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

My mom is an artist as well as several inlaws and some friends over the years.  While undoubtedly there are ones that will just paint the picture that is requested, I doubt the picture is then worth much in terms of art.

What is probably wanted is more the mentality that goes along with illustrating textbooks, but that type of work doesn't really speak to people.  Sweat's pictures of the translation themselves are a good example of how historical art tends to narrow the experience with the art itself.  Information is given, but nothing is really opened up in the soul no matter how hard he tried, imo.  I don't think that means such work is unnecessary, it is just that the good artists won't be that interested in depicting such.  And the artwork itself will be highly forgettable.

I think it worth noting that even photojournalists, who pay attention to accuracy in their pictures, will do more than just aim the camera and shoot. They strive for just the right composition, lighting, angle, mood, facial expressions, etc., to make the most appealing photo they can.

I presume it's the same with videographers, though I am less familiar with them. Perhaps sevenbak, a poster on this board who is a news videographer, can weigh in on this.

 

[Keq82]

In my opinion, the church does not want to include any pictures or descriptions of seer stones in its manuals, churches, etc., in an attempt to disassociate Joseph Smith from magical beliefs and/or practices.  Similarly, the church wants to sugarcoat the most tolerable, pleasing narrative possible in order to extenuate the actual translation process using a seer stone.  Apparently, Joseph Smith might have thought we should all have our own personal seer stones:

 

”Oliver sent me Joseph's first seer stone; Oliver always kept it until he sent it to me - the second seer stone Dr. Williams had - the third one was a very large - and Joseph found two small ones on the beach in Nauvoo - a little larger than a black walnut without the shock on - Joseph said there is a stone for every person on the earth - I don't know that I have ever had a desire to have one.”

 

Salt Lake City, Council Meeting, LJA 9-13-4, 149-150; BYC, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, 2010, Vol. 2, Pg. 1004.

 

 

[ksfisher]

16 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

In my opinion, the church does not want to include any pictures or descriptions of seer stones in its manuals, churches, etc., in an attempt to disassociate Joseph Smith from magical beliefs and/or practices.  Similarly, the church wants to sugarcoat the most tolerable, pleasing narrative possible in order to extenuate the actual translation process using a seer stone.  Apparently, Joseph Smith might have thought we should all have our own personal seer stones:

 

 

 

”Oliver sent me Joseph's first seer stone; Oliver always kept it until he sent it to me - the second seer stone Dr. Williams had - the third one was a very large - and Joseph found two small ones on the beach in Nauvoo - a little larger than a black walnut without the shock on - Joseph said there is a stone for every person on the earth - I don't know that I have ever had a desire to have one.”

 

 

 

Salt Lake City, Council Meeting, LJA 9-13-4, 149-150; BYC, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, 2010, Vol. 2, Pg. 1004.

 

 

 

Yes, the church is trying to hide all evidence that Joseph Smith used a seer stone.  Consider how they've skillfully hidden the following in plain site on LDS.org

"The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.”¹⁸ As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure.¹⁹ As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture.²⁰

Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.²¹ In ancient times, Israelite priests used the Urim and Thummim to assist in receiving divine communications. Although commentators differ on the nature of the instrument, several ancient sources state that the instrument involved stones that lit up or were divinely illumined.²² Latter-day Saints later understood the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer exclusively to the interpreters. Joseph Smith and others, however, seem to have understood the term more as a descriptive category of instruments for obtaining divine revelations and less as the name of a specific instrument."

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it worth noting that even photojournalists, who pay attention to accuracy in their pictures, will do more than just aim the camera and shoot. They strive for just the right composition, lighting, angle, mood, facial expressions, etc., to make the most appealing photo they can.

I presume it's the same with videographers, though I am less familiar with them. Perhaps sevenbak, a poster on this board who is a news videographer, can weigh in on this.

 

Videos can even be used to deceive.

I stopped assuming there was any chance I would ever get the full story secondhand upon being told by ny husband that a million plus communist gathering shown packed like sardines in Kremlin Square by CNN International was more likely a couple of hundred people all packed into one small section with the video never showing the edges of the group or the full perspective so the illusion of mass was perfect...unless you were an actual spectator and could see in person how few were really interested, even the passerbys just passed by.  It was the same old, same old to them.

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

In my opinion, the church does not want to include any pictures or descriptions of seer stones in its manuals, churches, etc., in an attempt to disassociate Joseph Smith from magical beliefs and/or practices. 

 

 

 

Of course, your "opinion" does not square with recent happenings in which the Church publicized a photograph of the seer stone in connection with a release of a Joseph Smith Papers volume. Your "opinion" does not square with the Gospel Topics essay I cited. Nor does it square with the exhibit at the recently developed Priesthood Restoration Site in Oakland Township (Harmony), Pennsylvania.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Keq82]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Of course, your "opinion" does not square with recent happenings in which the Church publicized a photograph of the seer stone in connection with a release of a Joseph Smith Papers volume. Your "opinion" does not square with the Gospel Topics essay I quoted. Nor does it square with the exhibit at the recently developed Priesthood Restoration Site in Oakland Township (Harmony), Pennsylvania.

Oh...I forgot this was a forum where we were discussing gospel topics and sharing opinions... 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Videos can even be used to deceive.

I stopped assuming there was any chance I would ever get the full story secondhand upon being told by ny husband that a million plus communist gathering shown packed like sardines in Kremlin Square by CNN International was more likely a couple of hundred people all packed into one small section with the video never showing the edges of the group or the full perspective so the illusion of mass was perfect...unless you were an actual spectator and could see in person how few were really interested, even the passerbys just passed by.  It was the same old, same old to them.

Yes, videos and still photos as well can convey an altogether false impression. A good news photographer/videographer, like a good writer, will try hard to be accurate.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

In my opinion, the church does not want to include any pictures or descriptions of seer stones in its manuals, churches, etc.....

So they have asked at least one artist twice to paint pictures of the translation of Joseph using the hat for what reason?

(you have read the article I linked to right?)

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

Oh...I forgot this was a forum where we were discussing gospel topics and sharing opinions... 

That doesn't shield you from having others point it out when you post nonsense.

 

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Of course, your "opinion" does not square with recent happenings in which the Church publicized a photograph of the seer stone in connection with a release of a Joseph Smith Papers volume. Your "opinion" does not square with the Gospel Topics essay I cited. Nor does it square with the exhibit at the recently developed Priesthood Restoration Site in Oakland Township (Harmony), Pennsylvania.

Yes, there has been slow progress which is great.  But, I think Keq specifically mentioned portrayals in manuals and in churches (libraries or hanging), which is valid.  Of course, this may happen in the not too distant future if the church continues with more accurate depictions of the translation.   

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Yes, there has been slow progress which is great.  But, I think Keq specifically mentioned portrayals in manuals and in churches (libraries or hanging), which is valid.  Of course, this may happen in the not too distant future if the church continues with more accurate depictions of the translation.   

His assigning of nefarious motives to the "the Church" ("disassociate," "sugarcoat," etc.) does not follow when one considers the official Church sources that do make note of the seer stone and of the translation process.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

In my opinion, the church does not want to include any pictures or descriptions of seer stones in its manuals, churches, etc., in an attempt to disassociate Joseph Smith from magical beliefs and/or practices.....

After all, what member would read the Ensign:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/10/joseph-the-seer?lang=eng

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Guys, please read the pdf.  It specifically deals with historical art.  The quotes were teasers to get people interested, not meant to answer arguments.  

I just spent some time reading more of this.  Thanks for posting it, Calm as it's interesting.

I think we are really discussing two different things or aspects here, though.

One is that an artist does have every right to paint an event or person(s), using their own impressions, inspiration or interpretation.  Of course, church leaders have no right to dictate how an artist chooses to portray events or people from church history.  

But, whether or not that art makes it into a church manual, publication or is chosen to be hung in a visitor center, church building, etc., is up to church leaders (or whoever makes up the committee who approves what goes into manuals, into libraries and so on).  An artist can paint whatever he wants in the manner he chooses, but will it pass the approval of the leaders or be published on lds.org or hung in a church owned building?  That's the difference, IMO.

.

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by ALarson

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Of course, your "opinion" does not square with recent happenings in which the Church publicized a photograph of the seer stone in connection with a release of a Joseph Smith Papers volume. Your "opinion" does not square with the Gospel Topics essay I cited. Nor does it square with the exhibit at the recently developed Priesthood Restoration Site in Oakland Township (Harmony), Pennsylvania.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/book-of-mormon-printers-manuscript-photos-of-seer-stone-featured-in-new-book?lang=eng

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

After all, what member would read the Ensign:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/10/joseph-the-seer?lang=eng

Oops. Looks like the disassociators and sugarcoaters were asleep when that got published. Or something.

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

After all, what member would read the Ensign:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/10/joseph-the-seer?lang=eng

Which is great that there is a picture of the stone.  But, no mention of how this stone was used (that I saw, did it mention it was put in his hat?) and then all of the translation depictions are still the old, familiar ones (below the picture of the stone).  Again, it's progress, but the article doesn't really teach the members an accurate portrayal, IMO.  I doubt any member who was unfamiliar with how the stone was used, would read this article and understand afterwards.

Maybe it would cause a member to go searching on their own, though, and I guess that is good.

Edited March 25, 2016 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/book-of-mormon-printers-manuscript-photos-of-seer-stone-featured-in-new-book?lang=eng

Thanks Calm.

Of course, in this article, I make reference to the Ensign piece you cited above.
 

Quote

 

Featured in the new volume are photographs of a brown seer stone likely used by the Prophet Joseph Smith in his translation of the Book of Mormon.

“This is the first time the Church has published images of this seer stone,” Elder Snow noted. “They’re beautiful, and we hope that both the images and the discussion of this sacred object will add to the understanding about the translation of the Book of Mormon.”

An article written for the October edition of the Ensign magazine titled “Joseph the Seer” was placed on the Church’s website coinciding with the news conference. It also includes a photo of the seer stone. The article explains the role of the seer stone in the Book of Mormon translation and its relationship to the Nephite interpreters that Joseph Smith found with the gold plates on which the Book of Mormon was inscribed and which he also used in the process of translation. The article was written by Richard E. Turley Jr., assistant Church historian and recorder, and his colleagues Robin Scott Jensen and Mark Ashurst-McGee.

 

 

[ALarson]

26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

His assigning of nefarious motives to the "the Church" ("disassociate," "sugarcoat," etc.) does not follow when one considers the official Church sources that do make note of the seer stone and of the translation process.

I was just pointing out that you didn't really address what Keq was speaking about (depictions used in manuals and church buildings).  I agree there has been progress.

I actually believe that the artistic depictions in the past were done quite innocently and it's good things are changing.....slowly....but they are changing.  

.

Edited March 25, 2016 by ALarson

[Keq82]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Oops. Looks like the disassociators and sugarcoaters were asleep when that got published. Or something.

 

It was from 2015...why did it take the church so long just to publish this in the Ensign?  

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I was just pointing out that you didn't really address what Keq was speaking about (depictions used in manuals and church buildings).  I agree there has been progress.

I actually believe that the depictions in art was done quite innocently and it's good things are changing.....slowly....but they are changing.  

I addressed his assigning of nefarious motives to the Church and its leaders -- the purpose of my post -- and how it makes little sense, all things considered.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

It was from 2015...why did it take the church so long just to publish this in the Ensign?  

The seer stone was made not of in Church publications many years before 2015.

[Keq82]

28 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, there has been slow progress which is great.  But, I think Keq specifically mentioned portrayals in manuals and in churches (libraries or hanging), which is valid.  Of course, this may happen in the not too distant future if the church continues with more accurate depictions of the translation.   

Yes.  I am referring to manuals and pics in our church.  If one's opinion on this matter doesn't fit within the church's correlated narrative, then some feel you are just trying to attack the church.  It's good that we've made progress, but we have a long way to go. 

[Keq82]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I addressed his assigning of nefarious motives to the Church and its leaders -- the purpose of my post -- and how it makes little sense, all things considered.

So you think the church doesn't filter and process everything (doctrine, manuals, pics, etc.,) through its correlation department?  

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I addressed his assigning of nefarious motives to the Church and its leaders -- the purpose of my post -- and how it makes little sense when other matters are considered.

Where did he state the church had "nefarious motives"?   I think it's quite obvious that there were some leaders who were not anxious to publish pictures or address the seer stone in the hat.  I understand why too. It opens up the whole topic of Joseph's treasure seeking when he was younger and how he used the same stone for these activities.  

Again, I think it's great we're getting more honest depictions now.  The pictures of the stones (links Calm has posted) will open up conversations and will also hopefully encourage members to search and learn further on their own.

Edited March 25, 2016 by ALarson