USU78 Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 On 3/19/2016 at 9:31 AM, thesometimesaint said: Why? Cuz it's icky
Tacenda Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) On 3/19/2016 at 4:52 PM, Calm said: Can't edit... Nonconsensual sex is traumatic at any age. Maybe you can see why my faith crisis was also over the FLDS marrying off young women to older men. They didn't want that, and if JS had never done what he did, and marry Helen Mar Kimball, maybe many, many young girls wouldn't have been abused. The bad fruit of JS's ministry I'm afraid. Edited March 21, 2016 by Tacenda 1
Calm Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Maybe you can see why my faith crisis was also over the FLDS marrying off young women to older men. They didn't want that, and if JS had never done what he did, and marry Helen Mar Kimball, maybe many, many young girls wouldn't have been abused. The bad fruit of JS's ministry I'm afraid. There are probably a lot more being abused under monogamy than in polygamy in the states. Should monogamy be abolished? There are a number of excellent charities out there and then some that have taken the idea and used diaster relief, refugee relief, etc. to rip people off. Should we abolish all charities? Good and neutral ideas and behaviours can all be twisted into evil. If evil is not inherent to a behaviour, then one should be holding the person doing the evilresponsible rather than attempting to shift the blame for whatever reason. That is the way to stop evil. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 16 is the age of consent for sex in Massachusetts and most states it's 16. Some others are 17 and some, including California and Utah is 18. California makes all the movies and TV shows where they portray anything under 18 as being wrong, where if they made it in Massachusetts or one of the southern states TV shows and movies would probably be more showing no going for any girl under 16. The age of consent varies by state.
Calm Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Can't edit, add on to response to Tac: Evil men will always look for some way to hide their evil and control others while they do it. If the government hadn't made polygamy illegal, there is a good chance that Jeffs wouldn't have been in power for long or at all or successful because the community wouldn't have been so closed off nor would there have been a bogeyman he could use to frighten his people so easily. Why aren't you as vigourously condemning the government? 1
juliann Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: Maybe you can see why my faith crisis was also over the FLDS marrying off young women to older men. They didn't want that, and if JS had never done what he did, and marry Helen Mar Kimball, maybe many, many young girls wouldn't have been abused. The bad fruit of JS's ministry I'm afraid. So in your worldview, whatever someone does is only to be judged by what some demented criminal does a century later? Boy, can we have fun with that..... Chocolate is now evil. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 3 hours ago, juliann said: So in your worldview, whatever someone does is only to be judged by what some demented criminal does a century later? Boy, can we have fun with that..... Chocolate is now evil. I think what she was getting at was that if Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy then Warren Jeffs would never have practiced polygamy.
Tacenda Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 38 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I think what she was getting at was that if Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy then Warren Jeffs would never have practiced polygamy. Thank you
juliann Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 25 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I think what she was getting at was that if Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy then Warren Jeffs would never have practiced polygamy. Of course that is what she was getting at. Had it not been for Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs would never have been a sexual predator. He never would have been insane. He never would have found vulnerable people and exploited them. He would be too busy graduating from Harvard and running his publicly traded company that funded shelters for women and children. And without chocolate there would be no child slavery. 1
Tacenda Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 1 minute ago, juliann said: Of course that is what she was getting at. Had it not been for Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs would never have been a sexual predator. He never would have been insane. He never would have found vulnerable people and exploited them. He would be too busy graduating from Harvard and running his publicly traded company that funded shelters for women and children. And without chocolate there would be no child slavery. Possibly...
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 12 minutes ago, juliann said: Of course that is what she was getting at. Had it not been for Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs would never have been a sexual predator. He never would have been insane. He never would have found vulnerable people and exploited them. He would be too busy graduating from Harvard and running his publicly traded company that funded shelters for women and children. And without chocolate there would be no child slavery. Why stop there? If there was no Bible Joseph Smith never would have had the example of Abraham and Jacob to learn about polygamy and that never would have led to Warren Jeffs. Abraham and Jacob's polygamous sins would have been forgotten, Joseph would have remained a farm boy who did a bit of treasure digging on the side, and Warren Jeffs wouldn't even be a twinkle in his Daddy's eye. Let's burn all the Bibles!!
Tacenda Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Why stop there? If there was no Bible Joseph Smith never would have had the example of Abraham and Jacob to learn about polygamy and that never would have led to Warren Jeffs. Abraham and Jacob's polygamous sins would have been forgotten, Joseph would have remained a farm boy who did a bit of treasure digging on the side, and Warren Jeffs wouldn't even be a twinkle in his Daddy's eye. Let's burn all the Bibles!! Seriously...humans have used the Bible inappropriately/inaccurately and still do. Whether it's abusing women, children, homosexuals...you name it. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Why stop there? If there was no Bible Joseph Smith never would have had the example of Abraham and Jacob to learn about polygamy and that never would have led to Warren Jeffs. Abraham and Jacob's polygamous sins would have been forgotten, Joseph would have remained a farm boy who did a bit of treasure digging on the side, and Warren Jeffs wouldn't even be a twinkle in his Daddy's eye. Let's burn all the Bibles!! Well it's true if there was no biblical polygamy there'd be no Joseph Smith polygamy and if that were the case Jeffs wouldn't be married to 80 women, including a 12 and 15 year old.
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Seriously...humans have used the Bible inappropriately/inaccurately and still do. Whether it's abusing women, children, homosexuals...you name it. I know right. We should just get rid of it altogether. Or maybe, just maybe, the flaw isn't in the original revelations but in the corrupted application by wicked men. Just like D&C 132. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: I know right. We should just get rid of it altogether. Or maybe, just maybe, the flaw isn't in the original revelations but in the corrupted application by wicked men. Just like D&C 132. Didn't Joseph Smith live a corrupted version of the revelation of polygamy in D&C 132? He wasn't following what was in that section at all with how he actually enforced the practice amongst himself and the saints.
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Didn't Joseph Smith live a corrupted version of the revelation of polygamy in D&C 132? He wasn't following what was in that section at all with how he actually enforced the practice amongst himself and the saints. No. Not at all. Some people misinterpret it that way, but that is not the case.
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 6 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Well it's true if there was no biblical polygamy there'd be no Joseph Smith polygamy and if that were the case Jeffs wouldn't be married to 80 women, including a 12 and 15 year old. Well, that's ok. At least God destroyed all the wicked polygamists in the Bible, denounced the practice as evil, and forbade it in one of the many commandments. He certainly never chose any polygamists to be his chosen lineages and heirs to his holiest priesthood orders. Because God knows that polygamy is wrong. And he never would allow a young girl, say 12-14, to get married, to be forced to become pregnant not by her husband, and give birth to a child all before her 15th birthday. God just doesn't do things like that.
sunstoned Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 5 hours ago, juliann said: So in your worldview, whatever someone does is only to be judged by what some demented criminal does a century later? Boy, can we have fun with that..... Chocolate is now evil. What JS did was illegal and judged criminal by the people of his day. That is why he kept is a secret as long as he could.
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) Just now, sunstoned said: What JS did was illegal and judged criminal by the people of his day. That is why he kept is a secret as long as he could. CFR. Show it was illegal and criminal to be sealed to multiple women (none of them were civil/legal wives). Or perhaps you'd like to restate this? Edited March 22, 2016 by JLHPROF
sunstoned Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: CFR. Show it was illegal and criminal to be sealed to multiple women (none of them were civil/legal wives). Or perhaps you'd like to restate this? Polygamy was against the law in Illinois and Utah. It was never legal and you know this. Here is the Illinois law against bigamy: "Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred."Revised Laws of Illinois, 1833, p.198-99 Here is one of the lies told by the prophet: "Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one? No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again."-The Prophet Joseph Smith, May 1, 1838, as quoted in "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", p. 119. If you have read (and believe you have) the church's essays you would know that JS's relations with married women and teenage girls was far more that just "sealings". JS practiced polygamy in secret, kept is affairs from his legal wife, the public and members of the church.
Tacenda Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: CFR. Show it was illegal and criminal to be sealed to multiple women (none of them were civil/legal wives). Or perhaps you'd like to restate this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system
thesometimesaint Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 10 hours ago, Tacenda said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system A Sealing is not a marriage. 1
ALarson Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: A Sealing is not a marriage. Well you see, some on here believe a sealing was (and still is) the only type of marriage that was real or valid in the eyes of God and that a legal marriage didn't count or wasn't valid. So, which is it? . Edited March 22, 2016 by ALarson 1
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: A Sealing is not a marriage. 5 minutes ago, ALarson said: Well you see, some on here believe a sealing was (and still is) the only type of marriage that was real or valid in the eyes of God and that a legal marriage didn't count or wasn't valid. So, which is it? Mixing issues. As far as whether Joseph's polygamy was "illegal", they were only sealings with no civil marriages to break the law. As far as the eyes of God, the sealings were the true marriages and the civil ones had no binding authority outside of the participants willingness to continue. This isn't complicated if we look through the participants eyes instead of our own current traditions.
JLHPROF Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 11 hours ago, sunstoned said: "Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred."Revised Laws of Illinois, 1833, p.198-99 What the heck is that supposed to mean? That is as ridiculous a law as the Edmunds-Tucker Act and Utah's "cohabitation" clause. Joseph may have been arrested on charges of polygamy, but he never broke the law in his polygamy. He was only ever legally married to Emma.
Recommended Posts