Question: Does a single atom have consciousness?

[cdowis]

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by cdowis

[cdowis]

What is the answer according to LDS doctrine?  This would indicate that it also has free agency, and that single cells also have self-awareness.

[thesometimesaint]

There is no empirical evidence for such.

[strappinglad]

From my admittedly shallow study of quantum physics, it seems even electrons make decisions . Boggled my mind! The scriptures speak of the Earth itself as a sentient creature . Perhaps it is more than metaphor.

[thesometimesaint]

2 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

From my admittedly shallow study of quantum physics, it seems even electrons make decisions . Boggled my mind! The scriptures speak of the Earth itself as a sentient creature . Perhaps it is more than metaphor.

Not really. At the quantum level they appear and disappear at random.

[cdowis]

Helaman 12 [7] O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth. [8] For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God.

We know that the earth is self-aware, and obeys the commands of the Lord.

Edited March 5, 2016 by cdowis

[CA Steve]

From the OP title, I thought this was going to be a thread about Orson Pratt's views.

Lol

Edited March 5, 2016 by CA Steve

[CV75]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

What is the answer according to LDS doctrine?  This would indicate that it also has free agency, and that single cells also have self-awareness.

It is not good that atom should be alone.

[cdowis]

Look at the video.   The argument is that atoms form cells, and cells form an organism. An organism has awareness and is sentient. At what step or level of the organism did that occur? It starts at the atomic level.

Dawkins launches his trademark hysterical ranting and raving, but has no cogent response.

Edited March 5, 2016 by cdowis

[ERMD]

I don't know about consciousness, but they can obey.

 

And the Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, pronounced they, GreatWaters; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth grass from its own seed, and the herb to bring forth herb from its own seed, yielding seed after his kind; and the earth to bring forth the tree from its own seed, yielding fruit, whose seed could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

[mfbukowski]

Due to the limitations of language itself. the question as it is stated is unanswerable, and possibly will always be.

"Atoms" as a word describe a scientific description of a phenomenon.  It is a useful model for many calculations, and atomic theory coheres with quantum mechanics, etc to form a cohesive view of the natural world. etc.  The definition of "atom" itself however does not allow for any description of anything like "consciousness" whatever that means. Science does not go there.  So in a way the question is like asking if embroidery is useful in the game of bridge.  Non-sequitur.

These are called "language games".  The rules of Monopoly do not apply to soccer, and discussing science and religion are similar. Each has it own vocabulary and way of thinking abut the vocabulary, just like a game has its own rules.  You mix the two sets of games and nonsense happens.

We can speak intelligently about consciousness and agency in a metaphysical way.  It would be an interesting discussion I think to wonder about how spiritual matter responds to God's commands, and if it can be said to be "obedient" etc.  But for me talking about how "atoms" have "consciousness" is like mixing the rules of football with impressionist painting.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

 

The problem here is semantic

They are speaking two different languages.

I don't know why they can't see this is all semantics.  They should read some Wittgenstein and the alleged problem would disappear.  The problem is that both think there "IS" one explanation of "reality" which corresponds to "truth".

There is no one such explanation.  There are disciplines and fields of knowledge each with their own concerns, exploring in different ways, each with their own terminology and methodologies.

You mix the two, and this is what you get.  Nonsense, non-communication.

It becomes painfully obvious that Wittgenstein was right.

 

[ERMD]

"And Wittgenstein was a beery swine,

Who was just as sloshed as Shlegel!"

That's the extent of my philosophy training.

 

 

[canard78]

4 hours ago, cdowis said:

Helaman 12 [7] O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth. [8] For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God.

We know that the earth is self-aware, and obeys the commands of the Lord.

Wait... what?

The earth is self-aware? And "we" know this?

The earth is a large lump of rock floating through space with a molten lava core. 

What part of it is also self-aware?

What do you think self-aware means?

Where are you getting this idea from?

[katherine the great]

I agree with mfbukowski.  I think this disagreement between two intelligent minds is largely a matter of semantics.  I also think that western science does not have a monopoly on facts.  I would not be surprised to learn that an atom has some type of consciousness.  It certainly seems that a cell does.  Not in the way a human brain does, of course, but cells carry out very complex functions which require a form of communication between the organelles and this occurs outside the control of the brain.

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

Wait... what?

The earth is self-aware? And "we" know this?

The earth is a large lump of rock floating through space with a molten lava core. 

What part of it is also self-aware?

What do you think self-aware means?

Where are you getting this idea from?

Scriptures, especially the PGP.  It mourns the sins of mankind, it obeys precisely the commandments of the Lord.

It has already been baptized with water, and will be baptized with the Holy Ghost.  It will be resurrected as an exalted being.  Scientists have already discovered at least one such resurrected being.

Haven't you been keeping up?

Edited March 5, 2016 by cdowis

[canard78]

13 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Scriptures, especially the PGP.  It mourns the sins of mankind, it obeys precisely the commandments of the Lord.

It has already been baptized with water, and will be baptized with the Holy Ghost.  It will be resurrected as an exalted being.  Scientists have already discovered at least one such resurrected being.

Haven't you been keeping up?

And you don't think any of those scriptures are maybe a tinsy bit metaphorical?

Remind me what resurrected being scientists have already discovered.

[cdowis]

A new study estimates that at least a third of the planet’s mass - the equivalent of the weight of three Earths - could be diamond.

This is the first time astronomers have identified a likely diamond planet around a sun-like star and unearthed its chemical make-up.

'This is our first glimpse of a rocky world with a fundamentally different chemistry from Earth,' said lead researcher Nikku Madhusudhan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2216196/Scientists-discover-massive-planet-diamonds-twice-size-Earth.html

My personal opinion, of course.  An interesting possibility.

Edited March 5, 2016 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

6 hours ago, cdowis said:

Look at the video.   The argument is that atoms form cells, and cells form an organism. An organism has awareness and is sentient. At what step or level of the organism did that occur? It starts at the atomic level.

Dawkins launches his trademark hysterical ranting and raving, but has no cogent response.

That is about as real as saying a cast iron skillet is a car.

[Calm]

Anyone read Asimov?  He has a Gaia character in his later books where all that exists in the sphere are aware of each other, though higher intelligence has more awareness.  It is an interesting hypothesis on a scientific (sort of) explanation for spirituality...essentially shared telepathy, a hive mind that exists interdependently with the individual minds.  Don't know if he thought it a possiblity or just a good story line.  Eventually the idea was that itwould encompass all known space, thus allowing humanity to withstand any threat yet unimaginable as well as be at peace and work cooperatively to evolve and fill needs and desires.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

A new study estimates that at least a third of the planet’s mass - the equivalent of the weight of three Earths - could be diamond.

This is the first time astronomers have identified a likely diamond planet around a sun-like star and unearthed its chemical make-up.

'This is our first glimpse of a rocky world with a fundamentally different chemistry from Earth,' said lead researcher Nikku Madhusudhan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2216196/Scientists-discover-massive-planet-diamonds-twice-size-Earth.html

My personal opinion, of course.  An interesting possibility.

I can't imagine why a planet that was aware of itself would want to be solid diamond intead of flowing water, trees, etc.  Sounds more like outer darkness...eternal unchanging, stagnant nature that exaltation.

[cdowis]

It becomed a seeer stone, a U&T, the celestial kingdom

Edited March 6, 2016 by cdowis

[katherine the great]

7 hours ago, cdowis said:

A new study estimates that at least a third of the planet’s mass - the equivalent of the weight of three Earths - could be diamond.

This is the first time astronomers have identified a likely diamond planet around a sun-like star and unearthed its chemical make-up.

'This is our first glimpse of a rocky world with a fundamentally different chemistry from Earth,' said lead researcher Nikku Madhusudhan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2216196/Scientists-discover-massive-planet-diamonds-twice-size-Earth.html

My personal opinion, of course.  An interesting possibility.

That is perfect!  All we have to do is figure out a way to tow that planet back to earth and we can pay off the national debt!

[canard78]

On 3/5/2016 at 11:22 PM, cdowis said:

A new study estimates that at least a third of the planet’s mass - the equivalent of the weight of three Earths - could be diamond.

This is the first time astronomers have identified a likely diamond planet around a sun-like star and unearthed its chemical make-up.

'This is our first glimpse of a rocky world with a fundamentally different chemistry from Earth,' said lead researcher Nikku Madhusudhan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2216196/Scientists-discover-massive-planet-diamonds-twice-size-Earth.html

My personal opinion, of course.  An interesting possibility.

So, to clarify, you think this diamond planet is a resurrected being?

My kids will be delighted to hear about this discovery though. A game of Minecraft on this planet would allow for the creation of a whole army wielding diamond swords. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by canard78
spelling

[canard78]

6 hours ago, cdowis said:

It becomed a seeer stone, a U&T, the celestial kingdom

It "becomed"?

cdowis... are you trolling us?