Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 I just caught on to the idea that we should be referring to the religion of Christ as Judaism, with the term/title of Christianity being considered at most only a sub-religious term/title for a particular form of Judaism. Now I'd just like to understand why others don't see it that way. Not that this should necessarily rank high on the list of the world's problems that we should be trying to solve, but to be technically correct we should be referring to the religion of Jesus as Judaism and Jesus as the most devout Jew that ever lived his religion.
Raingirl Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 How could Christianity be considered a form of Judaism? Once you have embraced the concept of Jesus Christ, you have left Judaism. My perspective comes from having converted from Judaism myself.
Duncan Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 isn't the million dollar question, what kind of jew was Jesus?
CV75 Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: I just caught on to the idea that we should be referring to the religion of Christ as Judaism How about ישועism (Yeshuaism)?
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, Ahab said: I just caught on to the idea that we should be referring to the religion of Christ as Judaism, with the term/title of Christianity being considered at most only a sub-religious term/title for a particular form of Judaism. Now I'd just like to understand why others don't see it that way. Not that this should necessarily rank high on the list of the world's problems that we should be trying to solve, but to be technically correct we should be referring to the religion of Jesus as Judaism and Jesus as the most devout Jew that ever lived his religion. Any ISM isn't representative of what Christ actually believed and taught. Christ didn't follow Judaism because his gospel preceded the existence of the Jews. He followed Judaism inasmuch as it was based on a portion of the original gospel. The hierarchy can be built any way you like: JUDAISM CHRISTIANITY MORMONISM TRUE CHRISTIANITY JUDAISM AND MORMONISM MORMONISM CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM It really doesn't matter. There is only one true gospel, whatever you call it and whatever portions were being practiced at that time.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, Duncan said: isn't the million dollar question, what kind of jew was Jesus? A radical one.
volgadon Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 8 minutes ago, Raingirl said: How could Christianity be considered a form of Judaism? Once you have embraced the concept of Jesus Christ, you have left Judaism. My perspective comes from having converted from Judaism myself. While that is certainly true of a later perspective, things are messier earlier on. 2
Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 3 minutes ago, Raingirl said: How could Christianity be considered a form of Judaism? Once you have embraced the concept of Jesus Christ, you have left Judaism. My perspective comes from having converted from Judaism myself. I think what you really did when you "converted from" Judaism is that you accepted some additional truths that most Jews in Judaism do not accept or associate with their religion, even though they really do. As a Jew you accepted the truth that a Messiah was coming, didn't you? Christ was and is that Messiah, with the Greek word Christ referring to the same person as the Messiah to a Jew. And what did he teach? The same thing as all the other prophets before him who can also be referred to as Jews, who the Jews also now believe were their prophets. The fact that some, even many, Jews do not believe Jesus was their Messiah (aka Christ) doesn't mean he wasn't or that he didn't come to fulfill and expand on Judaic ideas and teachings, though. Christ was a devout Jew, the ultimate example of how any Jew should live and what every Jew should believe, and as the ultimate Jew he was also the ultimate Christ-ian, the best follower and teacher of Judaism.
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: Christ was a devout Jew, the ultimate example of how any Jew should live and what every Jew should believe, and as the ultimate Jew he was also the ultimate Christ-ian, the best follower and teacher of Judaism. That was because he understood the principles behind the laws of Judaism and followed them, as opposed to the Pharisees etc who only followed the letter of Judaism without understanding the meaning.
Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 28 minutes ago, Duncan said: isn't the million dollar question, what kind of jew was Jesus? The kind that accepted and taught the same things that all the Jewish prophets taught and accepted, and in fact taught all those Jewish prophets. Not the kind of Jew that rejected what he had taught through his prophets. 1
Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 41 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That was because he understood the principles behind the laws of Judaism and followed them, as opposed to the Pharisees etc who only followed the letter of Judaism without understanding the meaning. Right. He was the best teacher of Judaism and what Judaism is supposed to be about.
Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Any ISM isn't representative of what Christ actually believed and taught. Christ didn't follow Judaism because his gospel preceded the existence of the Jews. He followed Judaism inasmuch as it was based on a portion of the original gospel. The hierarchy can be built any way you like: JUDAISM CHRISTIANITY MORMONISM TRUE CHRISTIANITY JUDAISM AND MORMONISM MORMONISM CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM It really doesn't matter. There is only one true gospel, whatever you call it and whatever portions were being practiced at that time. Then let's call it Judaism as well as Christianity as well as Mormonism. All 3, or any 1 of those 3 that are all the same thing. Kinda like God, eh? As long as we're talking about the one all-encompassing essence that is involved in all 3 of those things in unity. Edited February 19, 2016 by Ahab typo
volgadon Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 55 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That was because he understood the principles behind the laws of Judaism and followed them, as opposed to the Pharisees etc who only followed the letter of Judaism without understanding the meaning. Sorry, that really is a mischaracterization of the Pharisees, nevermind that Jesus closely followed their teachings. 3
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Just now, volgadon said: Sorry, that really is a mischaracterization of the Pharisees, nevermind that Jesus closely followed their teachings. Fair enough. I retract that statement. I am certainly no expert on Judaism. It just seems like Christ was always explaining the principles behind the law and being questioned on the letter.
Raingirl Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, volgadon said: While that is certainly true of a later perspective, things are messier earlier on. True. I was looking at as calling today's Christianity a form of Judaism. This happens when I'm posting on the fly while at work. So calling modern day Christianity a form of Judaism just doesn't work for me. Knowing the halachic requirements about who is considered a Jew, I can't wrap my head around thinking of Christians today as Jews. On a related/not related tangent.....my bishop has asked me to give a talk and/or a class on honoring the Sabbath based on my experiences as an Orthodox Jew. it being Friday, there's still a part of me for whom ending this post with a "Good Shabbos" would be natural. 3
Saint Sinner Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 2 hours ago, Raingirl said: How could Christianity be considered a form of Judaism? Once you have embraced the concept of Jesus Christ, you have left Judaism. My perspective comes from having converted from Judaism myself. Jesus was a Jew who did not convert to anything.
Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, Raingirl said: True. I was looking at as calling today's Christianity a form of Judaism. This happens when I'm posting on the fly while at work. So calling modern day Christianity a form of Judaism just doesn't work for me. Knowing the halachic requirements about who is considered a Jew, I can't wrap my head around thinking of Christians today as Jews. On a related/not related tangent.....my bishop has asked me to give a talk and/or a class on honoring the Sabbath based on my experiences as an Orthodox Jew. it being Friday, there's still a part of me for whom ending this post with a "Good Shabbos" would be natural. Consider the fact that there are some differences between our Lord's idea of what Judaism is all about and what some Jews ideas of what Judaism is all about. And also consider the fact that a rose by any other name is still the same thing. You do accept the fact that it was our Lord who originally taught the so-called "Jewish" prophets and that our Lord was still the one who was teaching his prophets and other disciples during his mortal ministry, don't you? And even after his mortal ministry? Do you suppose our Lord ever changed the name of his religion? What do you suppose he would have called his religion, if he had referred to it by any name? The religion he taught as well as lived, going way back to the beginning of this world or soon after the fall of Adam and Eve? Do you think of Abraham and Isaac and Moses, etc, as founders/ proponents/ followers of Judaism, or Christianity? Or both? In what way do you think you are no longer a Jew, if you believe you no longer are?
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 19 minutes ago, Saint Sinner said: Jesus was a Jew who did not convert to anything. No, he surpassed Judaism.
strappinglad Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 What did Jews at the time of Christ have to do in order to join in full fellowship with the followers of Christ? Did they have to stop doing something and/or start doing something or believing something ? IIRC there was quite an issue regarding this , based on Paul and Peter etc.
Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: No, he surpassed Judaism. No, most Jews just didn't accept everything he taught about Judaism. Just as most Christians today don't accept everything he has taught up to today.
Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: What did Jews at the time of Christ have to do in order to join in full fellowship with the followers of Christ? Did they have to stop doing something and/or start doing something or believing something ? IIRC there was quite an issue regarding this , based on Paul and Peter etc. Accept everything he had taught up to their day, including the revisions and additions he added to his body of teachings either personally or through his authorized messengers. Like the repeal of circumcision and the additional ordinance for the gift of the Holy Ghost. And accepting his newly appointed authorized messengers, the quorum of apostles and first presidency, and the seventy they appointed, and the new bishops and elders and teachers, etc. And the things they taught personality and through letters, like the personal ministry and letters of Paul and Barnabas and the remaining apostles who had been with our Lord personally during his mortal ministry. Stuff like that.
Raingirl Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Consider the fact that there are some differences between our Lord's idea of what Judaism is all about and what some Jews ideas of what Judaism is all about. And also consider the fact that a rose by any other name is still the same thing. You do accept the fact that it was our Lord who originally taught the so-called "Jewish" prophets and that our Lord was still the one who was teaching his prophets and other disciples during his mortal ministry, don't you? And even after his mortal ministry? Do you suppose our Lord ever changed the name of his religion? What do you suppose he would have called his religion, if he had referred to it by any name? The religion he taught as well as lived, going way back to the beginning of this world or soon after the fall of Adam and Eve? Do you think of Abraham and Isaac and Moses, etc, as founders/ proponents/ followers of Judaism, or Christianity? Or both? In what way do you think you are no longer a Jew, if you believe you no longer are? I don't know why you feel the need to be argumentative. Or feel the need to be overly concerned with naming the "religion" of prophets of old and desirous of redefining Judaism to fit your own needs. Of course Jesus was a Jew. I haven't said otherwise. Your questions about what Jesus would have called his "religion" are.....strange. I am a Christian. I became one the moment I was baptized. Why is this a problem for you? Are you one of those Christians who plays with Jewish religious rituals and holds Seders, etc.? Do you aspire to be like Madonna and other celebrities who disrespectfully hijack parts of a religion because they think it's the cool, hip thing to do? Halacha is clear on who is a Jew and who isn't. Are you one of those who wants to redefine a religion you are not part of? I am a Christian with a Jewish background. Even my Patriarchal Blessing recognizes this. That shouldn't be a problem for anyone. 2
Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 18 minutes ago, Raingirl said: I don't know why you feel the need to be argumentative. Or feel the need to be overly concerned with naming the "religion" of prophets of old and desirous of redefining Judaism to fit your own needs. Of course Jesus was a Jew. I haven't said otherwise. Your questions about what Jesus would have called his "religion" are.....strange. I am a Christian. I became one the moment I was baptized. Why is this a problem for you? Are you one of those Christians who plays with Jewish religious rituals and holds Seders, etc.? Do you aspire to be like Madonna and other celebrities who disrespectfully hijack parts of a religion because they think it's the cool, hip thing to do? Halacha is clear on who is a Jew and who isn't. Are you one of those who wants to redefine a religion you are not part of? I am a Christian with a Jewish background. Even my Patriarchal Blessing recognizes this. That shouldn't be a problem for anyone. I like discussing things. I suppose that could be called liking to be "argumentative" but I wouldn't use that word to refer to liking to discuss things. This is an interesting idea for me because I believe that what we name things puts things into a particular context for thinking about and discussing those things. In this case that means that I believe that what we name the religion of our Savior puts his religion into a particular context. His religion being the way he worships God, how he emulates him, and what he thinks and does including what he says and has to say in a religious context. To me the idea that he was and still is a Jew, and at least as much as anyone else is a Jew, opens up the religious context of what it means for a Jew to be a Jew. It puts being a Christian into an additional religious context, rather than thinking of Christianity as something that started during his mortal ministry. As Mormons we know Christianity had existed long before then, coinciding with Judaism, but to think of Christianity as a form of Judaism, the ultimate form, one that Jesus fulfilled without taking anything away from the essence of what Judaism really is, opens a whole other paradigm for me. Something I find very interesting and would like to have more of a discussion about. With somebody. Maybe not you. But somebody who would also like to discuss what I see as a very interesting and intriguing idea.
longview Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Judaism is a subset of the Nation of Israel, which was a subset of Moses/Joshua, which was a subset of The Twelve Tribes of Israel. Because Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law, His Higher Law is the superset of Adam, which is the superset of the Patriarchs, which is the superset of the Abrahamic Covenant, which is the superset of the House of Israel.
Ahab Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, longview said: Judaism is a subset of the Nation of Israel, which was a subset of Moses/Joshua, which was a subset of The Twelve Tribes of Israel. Because Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law, His Higher Law is the superset of Adam, which is the superset of the Patriarchs, which is the superset of the Abrahamic Covenant, which is the superset of the House of Israel. How would you explain the distinctions of each and how they are all intertwined? In some sense I feel right about thinking Mormonisn is eternal, just as I think Christianity is eternal. The idea that Judaism is also eternal is fairly new to me and I'm still working out the idea in my mind.
Recommended Posts