CV75 Posted February 14, 2016 Posted February 14, 2016 20 hours ago, california boy said: does anyone really doubt that this issue will only become bigger for members of the church to reconcile with? It will have a life cycle like everything else an will get less attention once the next distraction comes along.
Johnnie Cake Posted February 15, 2016 Posted February 15, 2016 5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: The gay issues are trumped up a lot in the Salt Lake Tribune. I don't think as many LDS especially outside of Utah care about the gay issue as it suggests. I think most members know that the Church and the Lord do not compromise eternal laws because gays want companionship. There are porn stars that are married to each other in committed relationships. There are married people who are on loving relationships but also have open marriages. They don't expect the Church to change its stance on porn or open marriages because one can find people involved in meaningful relationships that are involved with it. Some of the issues like the children part can be problematic but to blow up ones personal salvation and exaltation over an issue like that seems to be pretty insane. Sure God wants as many of his children to return to him but I think God and everyone else in the Celestial kingdom will somehow manage not being with these people if they choose gay issues over important eternal issues. Yeah I completely agree with you...it's terrible that gays chose to be gay when they could have simply chosen to be straight like you and I did.
Johnnie Cake Posted February 15, 2016 Posted February 15, 2016 5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: There is value but the readership of the Salt Lake Tribune probably does not reflect an accurate representation of the demographics in Utah. I would not put too much weight on the percentages since it is going to have a larger ex-LDS, non-LDS readership than one would expect in the overall population. That's true to get an honest demographic representation of Utah you'd have to get it from the Deseret News
Kemara Posted February 15, 2016 Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) 22 hours ago, california boy said: The Salt Lake Tribune recently asked it's readers what the main concerns were that was causing their faith crisis. The results were interesting. These were some of the main reasons they voiced as the cause of their faith crisis With all of the recent discussion about the CES letter and excommunication of it's author, this is what surprised me. The most often sighted reason for the faith crisis? How the church has dealt with it's gay members. With little hope in those policies changing in the future, and probably a more realistic future of even more antagonism against the LGBT community both within and without the church, does anyone really doubt that this issue will only become bigger for members of the church to reconcile with? Greeting California boy, my old adversary and sparring partner, long time no debate Now before you do a Oz/Johnnie Cake and run off before we even start, bear with me, I kind of end up agreeing with you...I know, I know...you never thought you would see the day, the funny thing is that I did see it but you missed that point in our previous interactions. I'll start by addressing a later post of yours than the one quoted above. You state: "The number one reason for a faith crisis was...how the church itself deals with gays" I do not agree with this point. I assume that many people conflate the "gay" issue with the "not allow their children to be baptized" issue. Many people feel perturbed about this policy because it impacts children and not necessarily because it impacts on gays. Yes the issues are related, one is a component of the other, but they are not specifically the same issue and many people view it this way. This may very well, and I am only throwing out a guess, be reflected in the poll data you have quoted, in that the numbers are representative of a conflation of two related but separate issues. Other posters have dealt with the unreliability of the poll and the statistics that you have used and I agree with these posters - the data that you used to reach and support your conclusions is not trust worthy. However, although I don't agree with the data, in my personal experience I tend to think that the conclusion you reach is probably correct, and it is correct primarily because of the "not allow their children to be baptized" issue. I think it is plain that this issue is different from the other issues of recent times, including gay marriage, that have been difficult for some LDS to reconcile because of the children factor. The issue has certainly lasted longer than the normal 24 hour news cycle. So in direct response to your question, yes I agree that this issue will only become bigger for members of the church to reconcile with. The reason I think it will most likely grow, is similar to the reasons you have given. When LDS see, with their own eyes, the children of people they know, children that are friends with their children, children that they carpool with, children that are in sports team with their children etc etc etc, the difficulty in reconciling this issue will grow. Edited February 15, 2016 by Kemara 2
california boy Posted February 15, 2016 Author Posted February 15, 2016 I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful remarks. I feel like this thread is talking about an issue that often gets inflamed with emotion. So far that hasn't happened. And I want to say, I agree with a lot of what has been posted. I agree that the poll is unscientific and not reliable for actual numbers. I never took the actual statistics seriously. I don't think it presents itself as a serious statistical study. I seemed to be more surprised than most of you that of all the issues that is causing faith crisis, this one is so high, no matter where the actual numbers are. But it is an indication of how big this issue is for some people in the church. I have been thinking about this today and wondering why it is even an issue causing any faith crisis at all. Here are my thoughts. I don't think how the church treats gays is CAUSING the faith crisis in these respondents. It is more likely all the other historical issues that are outlined in the CES letter and other places on the internet. So why is this issue being listed as a major reason for loosing faith in the LDS church? I think that despite the historical issues that people may be struggling with, they still view the church as a positive influence in their lives. They may not accept all of the claims of the church, but it has always been a good place to raise a family and give them a firm spiritual upbringing. I certainly think the church is a positive influence on my children, even though I am no longer involved in it. So why has this issue become important? I think that for the first time, those that may have major disbelief in some of the claims of the church are now not so sure it is a good spiritual environment to raise their children. Calling the relationships of gay couples apostates and not allowing their children to be members of their church is more the final straw rather than the reason for giving up on the church. For the first time not only are the historical issues difficult for them to believe, but now the actual teachings have become difficult to believe. This whole concept that just because you are gay, you should not find love and happiness in this life and your children should be barred from membership in the church is just too much for them to continue attending church It doesn't seem Christ-like to them. So it is probably more the final straw than the downfall of their faith in the church. 2
carbon dioxide Posted February 15, 2016 Posted February 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, california boy said: So why has this issue become important? I think that for the first time, those that may have major disbelief in some of the claims of the church are now not so sure it is a good spiritual environment to raise their children. Calling the relationships of gay couples apostates and not allowing their children to be members of their church is more the final straw rather than the reason for giving up on the church. For the first time not only are the historical issues difficult for them to believe, but now the actual teachings have become difficult to believe. This whole concept that just because you are gay, you should not find love and happiness in this life and your children should be barred from membership in the church is just too much for them to continue attending church It doesn't seem Christ-like to them. So it is probably more the final straw than the downfall of their faith in the church. Some of this may be true. Perhaps some members see the Church more as a social club and now that the social club is not to their liking as much anymore, they prefer to leave.
Kemara Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) On 15/02/2016 at 3:53 PM, california boy said: So why has this issue become important? I think that for the first time, those that may have major disbelief in some of the claims of the church are now not so sure it is a good spiritual environment to raise their children. Calling the relationships of gay couples apostates and not allowing their children to be members of their church is more the final straw rather than the reason for giving up on the church. For the first time not only are the historical issues difficult for them to believe, but now the actual teachings have become difficult to believe. This whole concept that just because you are gay, you should not find love and happiness in this life and your children should be barred from membership in the church is just too much for them to continue attending church It doesn't seem Christ-like to them. So it is probably more the final straw than the downfall of their faith in the church.the status I don’t believe that those LDS who, previous to the policy change, supported the Church’s position on the gay issue suddenly reversed their views on the Church’s spiritual environment after the policy change. It seems to me that this group of LDS are in the majority and by a considerable margin. Mainstream believing LDS already believed that gay relationships, gay marriage etc. were particularly serious issues. Officially labelling gay marriage as “apostate” didn’t have much of an impact on this group and certainly, in my experience, didn’t prompt a change in opinion on the spiritual environment of the Church. On the contrary, this group of LDS were not even neutral they seemed to actively support the policy change and believed it to be a good thing. Even those mainstream LDS who questioned the policy were still at Church the next Sunday, still taking sacrament, still taking their children to primary and Sunday school. However, I do agree with you that some LDS who had already been struggling with issues saw the policy change as the final straw. But, I would posit that even those that questioned the policy and those that left the Church over the policy didn’t do so primarily because of the official labelling of gay marriage couples as apostate. It was, in my experience, the policy restricting the baptism of children that hit hardest and was the primary reason for disaffection. If it is true, as you say, that “For the first time…actual teachings have become difficult to believe”, it was the children not the gay marriage teaching. Now of course everything that I have posited has some exceptions, there are always exceptions, but I think in general that this is a fair description of the matter. I realise that you referred to those LDS with "...major disbelief in some of the claims of the church..." and I think that even in their case, and undoubtedly in the case of the majority of LDS, that there is a long way to go (if indeed one actually wants to go that way or thinks going that way is the right or good thing) for the greater majority of either of these groups of LDS to be impacted in the way you have suggested. Further, you stated that the “concept that just because you are gay, you should not find love and happiness in this life…” is not a characterisation that accurately reflects the majority of LDS views. I don’t agree that even those in the minority on this issue agree that LDS, in general, feel this way. It is an oft repeated accusation that LDS feel that way, but I see very little evidence for the whole “…not find love and happiness in this life…” position. Whatever you and other gay persons think about how LDS express their wishes for gay peoples wellbeing, happiness and love in this life I do not believe it is accurate that we don’t sincerely want these things for you. Edited February 17, 2016 by Kemara 1
BCSpace Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 On 2/14/2016 at 9:06 PM, ttribe said: And I believe you aren't qualified to judge someone else's stated reasons for their spiritual struggles. The scriptures say you and I might so qualified be AND you should be preparing to do so rather than shying away. 1 Corinthians 6:2.
ttribe Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 1 hour ago, BCSpace said: The scriptures say you and I might so qualified be AND you should be preparing to do so rather than shying away. 1 Corinthians 6:2. Somehow I don't think that scripture had self-appointed judges in mind.
Meadowchik Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 8 hours ago, BCSpace said: The scriptures say you and I might so qualified be AND you should be preparing to do so rather than shying away. 1 Corinthians 6:2. I'm not so sure that practicing judging others is the best way to prepare to be a judge. My guess is that learning the law and doing our all to live it is closer to the needed preparation.
consiglieri Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 On 2/14/2016 at 3:19 PM, Avatar4321 said: Faith is a choice. If we choose not to have faith, its our choice. Trust in Christ, choose to have faith in Him and then wait on Him As more and more negative information regarding the LDS Church has gained wider circulation via the Internet, this has become an often heard mantra. It is, of course, ridiculous at its core. One cannot choose what one believes. When I was six, I believed in Santa Claus. When I was eighteen, I no longer believed in Santa Claus. I could not simply choose to once more believe in Santa Claus. No matter how hard I tried.
california boy Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 21 hours ago, Kemara said: Further, you stated that the “concept that just because you are gay, you should not find love and happiness in this life…” is not a characterisation that accurately reflects the majority of LDS views. I don’t agree that even those in the minority on this issue agree that LDS, in general, feel this way. It is an oft repeated accusation that LDS feel that way, but I see very little evidence for the whole “…not find love and happiness in this life…” position. Whatever you and other gay persons think about how LDS express their wishes for gay peoples wellbeing, happiness and love in this life I do not believe it is accurate that we don’t sincerely want these things for you. I think we are pretty much in agreement. It gives doubters a reason to finally leave the church. And I don't think the recent policy towards gay couples is anything that most faithful members would even stop to think about. It is just a continuation of the church's aggression against gay couples that has been going on for even prior to Prop 8. If members didn't have a problem with Prop 8, why would they have any problem with this latest skirmish. I am interested in your last statement. Not sure I understand what you are suggesting. Are you saying that most members are ok with gay couples falling in love and having a fulfilling life with someone they love?? How do you reconcile that attitude with the clear church policies that have been taken against gay couples?
Johnnie Cake Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 16 minutes ago, consiglieri said: As more and more negative information regarding the LDS Church has gained wider circulation via the Internet, this has become an often heard mantra. It is, of course, ridiculous at its core. One cannot choose what one believes. When I was six, I believed in Santa Claus. When I was eighteen, I no longer believed in Santa Claus. I could not simply choose to once more believe in Santa Claus. No matter how hard I tried. Wow...I stopped believing at age 9...jealous that you got an extra 9 years of Santa than I did...had to make sitting on his knee at 18 kinda awkward :-)
consiglieri Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Wow...I stopped believing at age 9...jealous that you got an extra 9 years of Santa than I did...had to make sitting on his knee at 18 kinda awkward :-) He's a right jolly old elf.
Walden Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 On 2/14/2016 at 3:46 PM, CV75 said: It will have a life cycle like everything else an will get less attention once the next distraction comes along. Don't know about this; if anything, acceptance of gay marriage is becoming more widespread, and acceptance is tied closely to generational beliefs. From Gallup: I have a feeling that the church will be dealing with repercussions of their stance on gay marriage for quite some time, as each generation seems to be more and more accepting of the practice, and less intolerant of intolerance. 2
CV75 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 19 minutes ago, Walden said: Don't know about this; if anything, acceptance of gay marriage is becoming more widespread, and acceptance is tied closely to generational beliefs. From Gallup: I have a feeling that the church will be dealing with repercussions of their stance on gay marriage for quite some time, as each generation seems to be more and more accepting of the practice, and less intolerant of intolerance. Note that I was answering the question: "does anyone really doubt that this issue will only become bigger for members of the church to reconcile with?" My interpretation of your stats is that it will not become a bigger issue for members of the Church to reconcile because it will become ho-hum; they will be used to dealing with it. Hence the "big deal" will have a life cycle where it gets less credit for causing faith crises once the next distraction comes along.
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Walden said: I have a feeling that the church will be dealing with repercussions of their stance on gay marriage for quite some time, as each generation seems to be more and more accepting of the practice, and less intolerant of intolerance. I have a feeling that the church will be dealing with repercussions of their stance on premarital sex for quite some time, as each generation seems to be more and more accepting of the practice, and less intolerant of intolerance. Also from Gallup: Quote Pre-Marital Sex No Longer Taboo In the days when pre-marital sex was taboo, many couples had at least one powerful incentive to marry. This may have been the case in 1969 when Gallup found that premarital sex was frowned upon by two-thirds of Americans, while only 21% felt these relations were acceptable. That critical view dropped sharply by the early 1970s to 47%, and in 1985 Gallup found a majority of Americans on the other side, with 52% saying premarital sex was morally okay. Today, according to a May 10-14 Gallup poll, only 38% of U.S. adults say it is wrong for a man and a woman to have sexual relations before marriage, while 60% disagree. A slightly different worded question on the same subject yielded a similar result. When Gallup asked in the same survey whether sex between an unmarried man and woman is morally acceptable or morally wrong, the majority (53%) said it is acceptable, while 42% said it is wrong. However, in line with the long-term trend showing how values on this subject have changed since the 1960s, the answers to this question are sharply different according to respondents' ages. The vast majority of young adults, 67%, think premarital sex is morally acceptable. Their views are similar to those in the 30- to 49-year-old category (60% say sex before marriage is acceptable), but are much more liberal than those aged 50-64 (only 46% say it's acceptable) and, particularly, those aged 65 and older (28% saying acceptable). Edited February 18, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: One cannot choose what one believes. 'Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief'. 1
consiglieri Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: 'Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief'. And that helps your case how?
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 22 minutes ago, consiglieri said: And that helps your case how? I think that may depend on how one chooses to understand the exchange recorded in these verses.
Kemara Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 3 hours ago, california boy said: I think we are pretty much in agreement. It gives doubters a reason to finally leave the church. And I don't think the recent policy towards gay couples is anything that most faithful members would even stop to think about. It is just a continuation of the church's aggression against gay couples that has been going on for even prior to Prop 8. If members didn't have a problem with Prop 8, why would they have any problem with this latest skirmish. I am interested in your last statement. Not sure I understand what you are suggesting. Are you saying that most members are ok with gay couples falling in love and having a fulfilling life with someone they love?? How do you reconcile that attitude with the clear church policies that have been taken against gay couples? I am suggesting that your statement "This whole concept that just because you are gay, you should not find love and happiness in this life..." is not a true reflection of majority LDS thought on the matter. I understand completely that you don't agree with the greater majority of mainstream LDS thought on how gays should go about obtaining love and happiness in this life, but to suggest that LDS don't want those things for gay people is not correct. There is no doubt that there are faithful non-doubting LDS, though I would suggest it would be a minority, that think it is ok for gay people to obtain love and happiness in this life and on their terms. I believe that these LDS think this way from a sort of "live and let live" perspective and not necessarily from a strictly religious perspective. I don't believe that you would find a single LDS, of even the very strictest orthodox views, on the MD&D boards that does not genuinely wish you and all gay people love and happiness in this life and in the next. Personally, myself, I hope you do, I genuinely and unreservedly hope you do, and I feel for you in this matter as much as any raging heterosexual can - - - - - - - - -if I were to carry on to the logical conclusion of that sentence there would inevitably be a BUT and I don't know a way around the BUT and I don't think there is one. However, I am like R2D2 in that I have been known to be wrong...from time to time. Finally, yes I do believe that there are LDS who are "ok with gay couples falling in love and having a fulfilling life with someone they love." I can reconcile this very simply; there are lots of Church policies that LDS don't agree with and don't live. But no, I am not saying that "most members" feel this way.
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