When Clutures Clash in Church; what to do?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In my daughters Ward there is a woman who was a preacher in an Afician Americian Baptist Church. For some time she would use each Fast Sunday to both preach and sing. She is a powerful speaker and sings very well. After months of this her Bishop called her in to explain what testimony meeting are for and she was asked to limit her remarks so other would have time to bare their testimonies and to stop singing, as she would do all four (or even more) verses of a song. She agreed to stop doing so and explained how this was permitted in her old Church were Sunday's meetings often lasted for hours as there was no time limit. She ceased doing so at the Bishop's request.

Then the first Sunday of this year, she forgot about switching meeting schedules and attended our Ward. She took advantage of the fact she had not promised our Bishop and preached a sermon and sang a song. This allowed for only 2 other people to take park in the meeting. Twice while I was serving in the Bishopric we had two families who came from a largely Muslim country's. While visiting their homes, they told me that my wife and I needed to go so they could get their homes clean because otherwise their husband would whip them. The first time I heard it, I said you mean the kids if their rooms are not clean (which I would still be opposed too) and she replied that where they are from, the husband will also whip their wife's with a belt or worse. I told her that if her husband was whipping her or beating her, that I you are I need to tell the Bishop. She pleaded with my wife and I not to say anything for fear that he would whip he for it. This dear sister (while her husband barely made ends meet) was finishing Med school, while working as a nurse and the primary breadwinner. 

How do we as a Church deal with the culture gap? If and when the Church moves into more Nations, we may find things more and more awkward situations like in the Middle East, where a Saxrament prayers being with the words, "Oh Allah" which means "Oh God", or in Isreal praying, "Oh Elohim" again being "Oh God". Also sadly themselves dealing with greater peer pressure as cultural issues being more difficult, or even under Islam, threats of death for converting. Two friends of mine are Jews who are now Mormon and they struggled much and family made things worse. When I was 21, I often went on splits with and Elder from Indonesia, who spoke of threats to him and his family for converting from Islam. I have a friend who converted from Jehovah Witness, and former fiends and even family shun him. 

Again, how can we as a faith, be understanding and help others to make the transition? 

[Duncan]

Have someone diplomatically give a talk about what a testimony is and isn't and what's appropriate to share. Our stake has this concern as well

[Jeanne]

16 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

In my daughters Ward there is a woman who was a preacher in an Afician Americian Baptist Church. For some time she would use each Fast Sunday to both preach and sing. She is a powerful speaker and sings very well. After months of this her Bishop called her in to explain what testimony meeting are for and she was asked to limit her remarks so other would have time to bare their testimonies and to stop singing, as she would do all four (or even more) verses of a song. She agreed to stop doing so and explained how this was permitted in her old Church were Sunday's meetings often lasted for hours as there was no time limit. She ceased doing so at the Bishop's request.

Then the first Sunday of this year, she forgot about switching meeting schedules and attended our Ward. She took advantage of the fact she had not promised our Bishop and preached a sermon and sang a song. This allowed for only 2 other people to take park in the meeting. Twice while I was serving in the Bishopric we had two families who came from a largely Muslim country's. While visiting their homes, they told me that my wife and I needed to go so they could get their homes clean because otherwise their husband would whip them. The first time I heard it, I said you mean the kids if their rooms are not clean (which I would still be opposed too) and she replied that where they are from, the husband will also whip their wife's with a belt or worse. I told her that if her husband was whipping her or beating her, that I you are I need to tell the Bishop. She pleaded with my wife and I not to say anything for fear that he would whip he for it. This dear sister (while her husband barely made ends meet) was finishing Med school, while working as a nurse and the primary breadwinner. 

How do we as a Church deal with the culture gap? If and when the Church moves into more Nations, we may find things more and more awkward situations like in the Middle East, where a Saxrament prayers being with the words, "Oh Allah" which means "Oh God", or in Isreal praying, "Oh Elohim" again being "Oh God". Also sadly themselves dealing with greater peer pressure as cultural issues being more difficult, or even under Islam, threats of death for converting. Two friends of mine are Jews who are now Mormon and they struggled much and family made things worse. When I was 21, I often went on splits with and Elder from Indonesia, who spoke of threats to him and his family for converting from Islam. I have a friend who converted from Jehovah Witness, and former fiends and even family shun him. 

Again, how can we as a faith, be understanding and help others to make the transition? 

Wow..this thought has never occurred to me..I am stunned.  No answer..it would be hard to see/do what you and your wife was experiencing..I hope you get some answers.

[halconero]

I think the line needs to be drawn at whether or not an action impedes the ability of an individual or others from keeping their covenants or participating fully in the church sacramental or social life. For instance, this sister could probably sing beautifully, and I actually wouldn't mind if her testimony was born in song. Yet her actions infringe on the ability of others to bear witness in the communal fast meeting. Likewise, spousal abuse is a clear violation of covenants.

Saying "Oh Allah, or "Oh Elohim?" Not a big deal for me. It doesn't infringe on covenants, its a translation, and is part of the covenant keeping ritual.

Likewise, in Toronto we had a Sikh family convert. It's common for Sikh converts in Toronto to continue wearing the kara, one of the 5 k's, after conversion. It's a metal bracelet and is supposed to remind the wearer that the actions done by the hands should reflect their commitment to God, and its circular nature reminds the wearer that God is infinite and eternal (kind of like the "course of God is one eternal round" line), as well as bond to family and community. Many of them will say its their CTR ring and while they'll shave and abandon most of the other k's they'll keep that.

Anyways, this family continued to utilize all the 5 k's, with a minor twist. The father retained the kesh (uncut hair and beard), the khanga (the comb/turban), the kara (the aforementioned bracelet), the kachera (a sacred undergarment), and the kirpan (a strapped curved sword or dagger worn at the waist). While these symbols had meaning specific to Sikhism, he found that incorporating them into his new faith enhanced his appreciation of them. Previously the kesh helped him understand that his body was a gift from God which he should never defile and should always appreciate, but now he understand why he shouldn't defile it: because it was a temple for the Spirit.The comb which previously reminded him as a Sikh to maintain a tidy appearance now was a tool to maintain the temple, with it and the turban reminding him that the temple included a morally clear conscience. The kara was much like a CTR ring, but reminded him to enter the temple with clean hands. The kachera was previously a reminder of chastity and readiness to do battle, but when he was endowed he exchanged it for the garment as his "new kachera" which he understood as a shield while in the midst of battle against Satan. Finally, the kirpan took on a whole knew significance after his initiatory, and for those of us here who have participated in that you'll get why. Previously it was a symbol of defense of the weak and the poor, now it was a spiritual thing as well.

We have to remember that the Restoration is unfolding and ongoing. We not only add to the truths of those who join, but we shouldn't forget that they add to ours as well. It's cultural arrogance to assume that all cultural differences need to subsumed into Mormon Americanism, and it prevents us from receiving the potential greater light and knowledge others offer.

But still, there does need to be lines, and I agree that many of the situations described by the OP should be tolerated under the umbrella of cultural subjectivity. As I said in the beginning, I believe the line should be drawn at whether or not the difference impedes the ability of an individual or others from keeping covenants and/or participating in communal meetings.

[Traela]

1 hour ago, Pa Pa said:

Twice while I was serving in the Bishopric we had two families who came from a largely Muslim country's. While visiting their homes, they told me that my wife and I needed to go so they could get their homes clean because otherwise their husband would whip them. The first time I heard it, I said you mean the kids if their rooms are not clean (which I would still be opposed too) and she replied that where they are from, the husband will also whip their wife's with a belt or worse. I told her that if her husband was whipping her or beating her, that I you are I need to tell the Bishop. She pleaded with my wife and I not to say anything for fear that he would whip he for it. This dear sister (while her husband barely made ends meet) was finishing Med school, while working as a nurse and the primary breadwinner. 

 

 

For this situation, I think First Sunday lessons in the priesthood quorums would be the place to address it, probably at least every six months.  There have been enough General Conference talks addressing abuse that it would be fairly easy to keep it general.  It could even be under the heading of, "how do we teach teenagers that any kind of abuse in dating relationships is unacceptable?"

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Traela said:

 

For this situation, I think First Sunday lessons in the priesthood quorums would be the place to address it, probably at least every six months.  There have been enough General Conference talks addressing abuse that it would be fairly easy to keep it general.  It could even be under the heading of, "how do we teach teenagers that any kind of abuse in dating relationships is unacceptable?"

 

As Priesthood leaders, and especially as part of a Bishopic, we cannot allow abuse to go on for even a week. But you could see the fear that she felt if anyone confronted him. It was such a hard thing to deal with, when it was addressed he moved his family away almost immediately. 

[Guest]

To answer post #4, she had promised her Bishop, when she showed up at the wrong meeting, she took complete advantage to do what she wanted despite her promise. People went up to bare there testimony, only to have sit back down. I understand that she once attended a very fundamentalist Church before where meeting could last all day if they wanted, but after 3 years in ours and her new Church, she know that Sacrament meeting only last 70 mins. Also no one wants to hurt her feeling, but the Bishop's wishes should be respected. When someone gains a testimony of the Gospel and joins the Church, part of that is accepting the rules of worship within the guidelines of their new faith. When people try to adopt their own rules it put everyone else in an awkward position. 

[halconero]

Which, like I said, would infringe on everyone else's ability to participate in communal worship and covenant keeping. 

If she sang a song for a testimony? Sure, no problem at least from me. What you described would be a problem.

[Avatar4321]

With kindness and wisdom from the Holy Spirit.

[will227457]

16 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

In my daughters Ward there is a woman who was a preacher in an Afician Americian Baptist Church. For some time she would use each Fast Sunday to both preach and sing. She is a powerful speaker and sings very well. After months of this her Bishop called her in to explain what testimony meeting are for and she was asked to limit her remarks so other would have time to bare their testimonies and to stop singing, as she would do all four (or even more) verses of a song. She agreed to stop doing so and explained how this was permitted in her old Church were Sunday's meetings often lasted for hours as there was no time limit. She ceased doing so at the Bishop's request.

 

She is a selfish person, and has issues. Nothing you can do about that. 

 

16 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

 Twice while I was serving in the Bishopric we had two families who came from a largely Muslim country's. While visiting their homes, they told me that my wife and I needed to go so they could get their homes clean because otherwise their husband would whip them. The first time I heard it, I said you mean the kids if their rooms are not clean (which I would still be opposed too) and she replied that where they are from, the husband will also whip their wife's with a belt or worse. I told her that if her husband was whipping her or beating her, that I you are I need to tell the Bishop. She pleaded with my wife and I not to say anything for fear that he would whip he for it. This dear sister (while her husband barely made ends meet) was finishing Med school, while working as a nurse and the primary breadwinner.  

I am surprised that these sisters were even allowed to convert. 

As Americans we want to fit everyone into our little box of what is and what is not culturally acceptable. 

[RevTestament]

17 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

In my daughters Ward there is a woman who was a preacher in an Afician Americian Baptist Church. For some time she would use each Fast Sunday to both preach and sing. She is a powerful speaker and sings very well. After months of this her Bishop called her in to explain what testimony meeting are for and she was asked to limit her remarks so other would have time to bare their testimonies and to stop singing, as she would do all four (or even more) verses of a song. She agreed to stop doing so and explained how this was permitted in her old Church were Sunday's meetings often lasted for hours as there was no time limit. She ceased doing so at the Bishop's request.

Then the first Sunday of this year, she forgot about switching meeting schedules and attended our Ward. She took advantage of the fact she had not promised our Bishop and preached a sermon and sang a song. This allowed for only 2 other people to take park in the meeting. Twice while I was serving in the Bishopric we had two families who came from a largely Muslim country's. While visiting their homes, they told me that my wife and I needed to go so they could get their homes clean because otherwise their husband would whip them. The first time I heard it, I said you mean the kids if their rooms are not clean (which I would still be opposed too) and she replied that where they are from, the husband will also whip their wife's with a belt or worse. I told her that if her husband was whipping her or beating her, that I you are I need to tell the Bishop. She pleaded with my wife and I not to say anything for fear that he would whip he for it. This dear sister (while her husband barely made ends meet) was finishing Med school, while working as a nurse and the primary breadwinner. 

How do we as a Church deal with the culture gap? If and when the Church moves into more Nations, we may find things more and more awkward situations like in the Middle East, where a Saxrament prayers being with the words, "Oh Allah" which means "Oh God", or in Isreal praying, "Oh Elohim" again being "Oh God". Also sadly themselves dealing with greater peer pressure as cultural issues being more difficult, or even under Islam, threats of death for converting. Two friends of mine are Jews who are now Mormon and they struggled much and family made things worse. When I was 21, I often went on splits with and Elder from Indonesia, who spoke of threats to him and his family for converting from Islam. I have a friend who converted from Jehovah Witness, and former fiends and even family shun him. 

Again, how can we as a faith, be understanding and help others to make the transition? 

Wow, you seem to have much experience with cultural diversity issues... I have a few tidbits to offer.

Re the African American Baptist....I'm not so sure that is really a "cultural" thing. I grew up as a Baptist, and such a thing would not have been tolerated at the churches I attended. But in Primitive Baptist churches they would be more open to speak "as the spirit directs." I know in my own ward the bishop has commented a few times over the last few years what the fast testimony meeting is for, and has discouraged the rote recitations of children such as "I know this church is true and that JS was a prophet...." or the monopolizing of the meeting by preaching rather than giving experiences and testimony.  By doing so no one person feels singled out. Further, basically all singing has to be preapproved by the bishop to ensure the material is appropriate, etc.

Re Muslim converts. First, while many Gentiles might find the idea of "Allah" as somewhat repugnant, as you note the meaning of the word is basically an Arabic generic word for "God." The word "Allah" was around before Mohammed. Perhaps it would be wise for Gentiles to remember that the word "god" has pagan roots from the Germanic "Gott." The Saxons who were responsible for the English language were "Teutonic/Germanic." Most Muslims come from areas with 7th century values where women are basically treated as chattel. Many countries which are predominantly Muslim also have laws supporting death or punishment for leaving Islam. If we are extending the gospel to Muslims, we need to be mindful of their probable predicament, and perhaps be prepared to arrange or offer asylum if they convert, as conversion results in the persecution or death of many Muslims. I don't know how the Muslims reconcile their practices with parts of the Koran such as "There is no compulsion in religion" but perhaps letting them know as Christians we truly practice that, and do not force anyone to stay in our faith with fear or threats, etc - that Christ does not threaten anyone who blasphemes Him or leaves His teachings, but offers them forgiveness. But be careful here not to offend. As for the whipping... such ingrained behavior might take a while to change. There are parts of the Muslim law which teach the men to discipline their wives. Perhaps lessons on how Christ treated women respectfully and with kindness may help change the hearts of Muslim converts. I would not be inclined to report it if the wife doesn't want you to, and doesn't accept asylum/help. 

We should be especially sensitive to converts and perhaps ask them if they expect to be shunned or are being shunned, so as to be prepared to offer whatever assistance we can. If they are Muslim, they are often only safe if they leave their country, so should probably leave their country before officially converting unless they are already in a western country. JWs and Jewish converts face being shunned, and will probably need support from their whole ward to remain in the gospel. 

 

[rpn]

I would have pitched in and helped the two women to finish their work.   I would have called the man in to teach him about his duties and responsibilities as a father (and make sure he knew that millions of families do well without having to inflict abuse on their women, which tends to show he is unreasonable and not a real man if he has to use beatings), and that it is against the law in the United States and will get his children removed if it is reported.    The two women who reported being beat should have been given the information about the child abuse hotline, and domestic violence shelters. 

No matter what the man's faith or culture, it is a real safe bet that there are hundreds if not thousands practicing that culture and faith without beating their wives or children.

[Guest]

To answer the last two posts...First "RevTestament"...theses two families were not Muslim, but we're first Generation Afician American who came from countries where Muslims were the majority. Both women did not fear (as they told me) being beat with fists, but did not want to be whipped with a belt like the children might be. Sometimes as one sister reported is that when the father came home and the children had not cleaned their rooms or did their homework, that the children would be punished and the wife in the "lineup" if you will. Another family whom I was doing free work for, the wife was not allowed to let me in the house without her husband there. It took me a very long time to finish, but she too would have been punished. As far as letting them joined, it is true that there is a Latter-day Saint culture (as with all faiths) we do not try to shove everyone into a little box. I am sorry if you feel that way. 

Second to..."rpn", The Bishop did try to do so and one family left the Church because the father and husband argued that this was their coustom. The other family moved away so the wife could finish Med School at John Hiokins...she was a very intelligent and remarkable woman. It was so odd to see someone so intelligent allowing this to continue. It is important to note that President Hinkley once spoke of this in Conference, telling all to bring all that is good in your faith and culture and help make ours even better. When Sister Gladys Knight joined and told President Hinkley that much of our hymns are not as uplifting as the songs she grew up with...he told her, "then do something about it". And she did, traveling all over the country doing fireside with a choir she put together. I loved it, I attended one of her concerts.