Elder Andersen on US Native Americans

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not sure what more to say, Scott. 

In one of them there articles it says, "The same process works going forward in time; in essence every one of us who has children and whose line does not go extinct is suspended at the center of an immense genetic hourglass"

We simply don't know particular lines.  The reason why they use Charlemagne as an example?  Because he's European.  We simply can't make the stretch regarding Lehi because we don't have data to suggest his line did not die out. 

I would grant, given Lehi, his line probably didn't die out.  But we don't know that.  We can't trace anyone back to Lehi, that's for sure. 

The same mathematical model -- geometric progression of descendancy -- can be applied whether it's the European continent or any other continent, including the Americas. Surely you can see that.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

If she is your biological ggg grandmother, you do share some DNA with her.

Suppose she didn't. Would she cease to be her grandmother?

 

[rockpond]

22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You have yet to engage the mathematical probability that after a sufficient number of generations, everyone living in a given area will have the same common ancestor (the everyone-is-descended-from-Charlamagne mode). Why do you neglect to do so?

I've seen no evidence suggesting that we can accurately apply that theory to the Native American populations.  Further, the DNA evidence from Native Americans doesn't support the idea that Lehi was the common ancestor.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The same mathematical model -- geometric progression of descendancy -- can be applied wither It's the European continent or any other continent, including the Americas. Surely you can see that,.

Sorry, Scott.  This discussion is going nowhere.  There are tons of assumptions to make to use this model.  We can do it for Charlemagne.  We can do it for modern populations, in large measure.  Because we have data, records, to verify.  There's no reason to assume the same for Lehi's.  It's possible his line went extinct, seeing as there were many others in the Americas.  It's interesting because the BOM itself talks about a line that went extinct.  Remember that? 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Senator said:

Whether trying or not, you were.

C'mon....Scott you really thought, that I might have been thinking my opinion on an obscure message board should be binding on all here as well as the church?

Some how I doubt that.

I wasn't sure. You made such a point of pushing your opinion, I wanted to make clear that, all by itself, it does not have authority or probatve value. Sorry you got offended.

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

See my post on the first page, I believe it's the fifth.  The are also numerous other articles on the web.  While none of them apply directly to this particular genealogy (which I pointed out), the same math can be applied.  It's not a guarantee of descent, but a measure of probability.

Then there have been many statements that are way overboard in this thread, I'd say.  Probability in this works well with European populations and descent which we know a lot about.  But to take it somewhere else, more anciently, to prove a point?  I don't think it's a good idea.  At all.  But the good thing is we can't verify either way since we have no records, nor data to either corroborate or reject. 

[rockpond]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Suppose she didn't. Would she cease to be her grandmother?

 

If she is a biological granddaughter, she would carry some of her ggg grandma's DNA.  There's really no way around that. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sorry, Scott.  This discussion is going nowhere.  There are tons of assumptions to make to use this model.  We can do it for Charlemagne.  We can do it for modern populations, in large measure.  Because we have data, records, to verify.  There's no reason to assume the same for Lehi's.  It's possible his line went extinct, seeing as there were many others in the Americas.  It's interesting because the BOM itself talks about a line that went extinct.  Remember that? 

What I remember clearly from the Book of Mormon is abundant prophecy about the descendants the Lamanites in the last days receiving the gospel. If you believe the Book of Mormon is true (which I do), then you know the Lamanites (and thus, Lehi's descendants) did not go extinct. If you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true, then we really don't have much to talk about.

 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

If she is your biological ggg grandmother, you do share some DNA with her.

Most likely, but if I go back 20 generations (IIRC) by then I start having more ancestors than room in my DNA so even if everyone contributes 1 bit of DNA, some won't be represented.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 Probability in this works well with European populations and descent which we know a lot about.  But to take it somewhere else, more anciently, to prove a point?  I don't think it's a good idea. 

https://thewildpeak.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/how-many-ancestors-do-you-have/

Quote

You might have even heard statements to the effect that all Europeans are descendants of Charlemagne in the eighth century or that all people of English ancestry are descended from 86% of the people living in England at the time of William the Conqueror almost a thousand years ago. If you live in North America and have English or European ancestors the same questions apply. Indeed wherever you live and whatever your ethnic ancestry the questions of descent and ancestry are the same.

 

[Senator]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wasn't sure. You made such a point of pushing your opinion, I wanted to make clear that, all by itself, it does not have authority or probatve value. Sorry you got offended.

Oh, and you never do this!!!

Note to self, always tell Scott when pushing his opinion, that his opinion isn't worth a pile of s*&t.

Sorry your so offensive.

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Most likely, but if I go back 20 generations (IIRC) by then I start having more ancestors than room in my DNA so even if everyone contributes 1 bit of DNA, some won't be represented.

Your female line should be detectable through mDNA, but their husbands contributions have been lost.

[Johnnie Cake]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Well, I don't know much about it, but I was visiting a friend the other day in the Joseph Smith building in SLC and I saw a flyer on the wall advertising a lecture from Meldrum to be given in the coming weeks in the Joseph Smith building--it advertised his lecture on Book of Mormon evidences and referenced North American Native American tribes he'll talk about.  It also had his website on the page.  Sounds like quite a thing to host if no official endorsement is given.  Is there not endorsement in hosting such an event. 

Gobsmacked...

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, rockpond said:

If she is a biological granddaughter, she would carry some of her ggg grandma's DNA.  There's really no way around that. 

I think you're dancing around the point calm has made. It doesn't matter how far back in the line the person is, an ancestor is still an ancestor, even when DNA is not present.

calm made this clear in a subsequent post. I hope you read it. More importantly, I hope you grasped the point, so that we don't have to read any more impertinent jabs from you about the apostles not being acquainted with the gospel topics essays.

[rockpond]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Most likely, but if I go back 20 generations (IIRC) by then I start having more ancestors than room in my DNA so even if everyone contributes 1 bit of DNA, some won't be represented.

Not how it works... You might want to read a little bit about haplogroups. They are referenced in the gospel topics essay as well.

[Johnnie Cake]

6 hours ago, ksfisher said:

From a genealogical standpoint it is probable that anyone living on the western hemisphere  could in some way trace their linage back to Lehi.  While not addressing Lehi specificly, this article (and many more like them on the web) makes a good starting point for understanding.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford

or this

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/05/the-royal-we/302497/

Well according to my LDS Family Search Genealogy spreadsheet, not only am I a descendant of Charlemagne I'm also a direct descendant of Adam and Eve...so how credible can those things be?

[Calm]

This is an excellent blog for questions of DNA and ancestry:

http://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-ancestor/

If I am reading it correctly, while small there is a chance I might not have any DNA from a particular ancestor from just 6 generations back, so that great great great great grandmother...I may not have any of her DNA.  So for any ancestor 6 generations back there is a small chance I won't inherit DNA from them.

However go back 12 generations and the situation is reversed.  For any given ancestor now there is a small chance that we will inherit any DNA from them.

Quote

The probability we inherit any autosomal DNA from a specific ancestor from more than 12 generations ago is small (~82%), because you have vast numbers of ancestors that far back (e.g. 12 generations ago you have 4096 ancestors) and your genetic ancestors are a very small subset of these people (on average around 700 people).

This is without overlap, having an ancestor appear in more than one slot obviously increases their chance of passing on DNA.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Not how it works... You might want to read a little bit about haplogroups. They are referenced in the gospel topics essay as well.

You're still missing the point. Or, more precisely, steadfastly ducking it through quibbling.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Your female line should be detectable through mDNA, but their husbands contributions have been lost.

I probably should have used grandfather to make it easier, but as long as it is not the mother of the mother of the mother...of my mom, I believe using just autosomal DNA predictions works.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Calm

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Well according to my LDS Family Search Genealogy spreadsheet, not only am I a descendant of Charlemagne I'm also a direct descendant of Adam and Eve...so how credible can those things be?

I would hope your're not indirectly descended from Adam and Eve.

[Johnnie Cake]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I would hope your're not indirectly descended from Adam and Eve.

Well to be honest I don't believe that I descended from an Adam or an Eve...at least not ones that lived 6,000 years ago in a garden. Plus at least 2.87% of my DNA is derived from my Neanderthal ancestors...who predated a 6,000 year old Adam and Eve.

 

 

                                                                                

                                                                                                            ^^^^^^^ Family Photo^^^^^^^

Edited January 27, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Well, I don't know much about it, but I was visiting a friend the other day in the Joseph Smith building in SLC and I saw a flyer on the wall advertising a lecture from Meldrum to be given in the coming weeks in the Joseph Smith building--it advertised his lecture on Book of Mormon evidences and referenced North American Native American tribes he'll talk about.  It also had his website on the page.  Sounds like quite a thing to host if no official endorsement is given.  Is there not endorsement in hosting such an event. 

Much of the Joseph Smith Memorial Building in Salt Lake City is a commercial enterprise (although a relatively small portion of it serves as meetinghouse space for one or more of the wards downtown and most of it is, of course, offices for various Church departments).

So I don't see anything particularly remarkable about Meldrum and Co. renting one of the conference rooms in the building, any more than I would some other corporate or private entity renting space in the building to hold, say, a seminar or a wedding reception or whatever.

For example, the high school I graduated from almost held its centennial reunion there a few years ago. They opted to go elsewhere for, I think, reasons of cost.

So long as the Meldrumites pay the money and they don't trash the place, they have as much right as anybody else to hold an event there. And no, there would be no presumption of endorsement, any more than there would be of your business if you happened to buy a book from Deseret Book Co.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Well according to my LDS Family Search Genealogy spreadsheet, not only am I a descendant of Charlemagne I'm also a direct descendant of Adam and Eve...so how credible can those things be?

He is not talking about traced genealogies which is based more on history, journals, censuses, but actual ones...ones that if traced accurately through records would show the connections.  This model has been confirmed by DNA testing. IIRC, that is in the national geographic link I posted earlier.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Calm

[Johnnie Cake]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Much of the Joseph Smith Memorial Building in Salt Lake City is a commercial enterprise (although a relatively small portion of it serves as meetinghouse space for one or more of the wards downtown and most of it is, of course, offices for various Church departments).

So I don't see anything particularly remarkable about Meldrum and Co. renting one of the conference rooms in the building, any more than I would some other corporate or private entity renting space in the building to hold, say, a seminar or a wedding reception or whatever.

For example, the high school I graduated from almost held its centennial reunion there a few years ago. They opted to go elsewhere for, I think, reasons of cost.

So long as the Meldrumites pay the money and they don't trash the place, they have as much right as anybody else to hold an event there.

I would agree with you Scott if we weren't talking about the JSB.  But the mere fact that the building is owned and operated by the church gives tacit approval to the rubbish Meldrum spews forth to uninformed minds

[rodheadlee]

Rockpond and Stemelbow you guys are fighting mathematics, you can never win this one, unless Lehi never existed.