Zakuska Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 Just now, Thinking said: It's one thing to disagree with the foundational claims of the LDS Church. It's quite another to make a claim of premeditated deception. It sounds to me like losttare is projecting again.
strappinglad Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 stop feeding the troll, stop feeding the troll, stop feeding the troll. Where's Billy Goat Gruff when you need him?
Sevenbak Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) Just l 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: This thread isn't even his own. He lifted it from http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?6058-Joseph-Smith-Premeditated-Deception-Nephi-3-20-23-26-Acts-3-22-26-Deut-18-15-18-19 Is it any surprise he gets things wrong? Just visited the site from whence cometh Wheat. Believe it or not, I thoroughly enjoyed one thread. At least they agree they are different than the early Church fathers. Some people just prefer their own apostasy. "I lost All Respect for Justin Mratyr, Irenaeus, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa" http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?6095-I-lost-All-Respect-for-Justin-Mratyr-Irenaeus-Origen-Gregory-of-Nyssa If they have a problem with the early father's views on free will, they're really gonna hate what they had to say about theosis. Edited January 25, 2016 by Sevenbak
halconero Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) The thing that leaves me more than a little flabbergasted is their emphasis on God's salvation not being earned by merit, yet they turn an exact and unerring of interpretation of scripture into a litmus test. It seems to me that salvation for them is merited through knowing a particular set of doctrines (it smacks of Gnosticism for me in some ways), and God is extremely fickle and unmerciful with regards to how close you hit the bullseye. Edited January 25, 2016 by halconero 2
canard78 Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 Oh dear. Where's a facepalm emoticon when you need one. Ref, call time, this guy's a punching bag. He doesn't even know how to keep his defence up and his jabs are air hits. It's a shame because it would have been interesting to have an intelligent discussion about how Peter's paraphrasing of the scripture (instead of the original) ended up in the Book of Mormon. Nevermind, back to the pummelling. 1
The Nehor Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 10 minutes ago, canard78 said: Oh dear. Where's a facepalm emoticon when you need one. Ref, call time, this guy's a punching bag. He doesn't even know how to keep his defence up and his jabs are air hits. It's a shame because it would have been interesting to have an intelligent discussion about how Peter's paraphrasing of the scripture (instead of the original) ended up in the Book of Mormon. Nevermind, back to the pummelling. As the owner of a punching bag I do not see the problem. Admittedly if my punching bag droned out idiocy at the rate this one does I would get more of a workout. 1
sunstoned Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 4 hours ago, savedwheat said: Joseph Smith copied directly (3 Nephi 20.23-26a) off of what Peter said in Acts (Acts 3.22-26) when Peter paraphrased Moses in Deuteronomy (Deut. 18.15,18-19), but Joseph Smith presented that paraphrasing as being of Moses by Nephi in the Americas when Peter didn't actually make that paraphrase until after Jesus died on the cross (in KJV version no less which is taken from a later NT manuscript source) and after Jesus allegedly went to the Americas. The same verse numbering in Nephi 3:20:23-26 were used, namely verses 23 to 26 but not verse 22 as in Acts 3.22-26. It's completely premediated deception. This shows Joseph Smith was a con artist and a careless one at that. Everything in Mormonism is designed and set up for you to reject who Jesus truly is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, and reject that salvation is not by works (lest anyone should boast). Verse 26 in Nephi says "raised me up." Who is "me" here? Peter's paraphrase of Moses that Jesus is quoting was after Jesus allegedly went to the Americas. It is quite funny Smith changed "me" in place of "foretold of these days" in verse 24, and "me" to replace "his Son Jesus" and "me" instead of "him" in verse 26. This is twisted. The Mormon Jesus in the Americas before Peter was born is using Peter's words about Jesus as Jesus speaking referring to Himself. Crazy eh? Totally demented! Joseph Smith was trying to be sneaky but he is found out. Bottom line you can't quote something that hasn't been said yet. At least do your own research instead of the cut and paste job. I'm starting to think you are a dim bulb. 1
RevTestament Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 4 hours ago, savedwheat said: Joseph Smith copied directly (3 Nephi 20.23-26a) off of what Peter said in Acts (Acts 3.22-26) when Peter paraphrased Moses in Deuteronomy (Deut. 18.15,18-19), but Joseph Smith presented that paraphrasing as being of Moses by Nephi in the Americas when Peter didn't actually make that paraphrase until after Jesus died on the cross (in KJV version no less which is taken from a later NT manuscript source) and after Jesus allegedly went to the Americas. The same verse numbering in Nephi 3:20:23-26 were used, namely verses 23 to 26 but not verse 22 as in Acts 3.22-26. It's completely premediated deception. This shows Joseph Smith was a con artist and a careless one at that. Um no. It shows you are a careless critic. Joseph Smith did not number the verses of the Book of Mormon. The chapters and verse numbers were added by a man named Pratt some 40 years after the Book of Mormon was first published, and Joseph Smith was dead. And oh yeah, like everyone else says, Nephi in 3 Nephi was a different Nephi. Nephi was kind of a common name - I think it meant "king." So you find Nephi in the Apocrypha and other places too. Read up next time dude.
savedwheat Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 Smith was a sloppy and careless con artist when he wrote Nephi quoting Peter quoting Moses when Peter wasn't even born yet.
thesometimesaint Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 13 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Smith was a sloppy and careless con artist when he wrote Nephi quoting Peter quoting Moses when Peter wasn't even born yet. Different Nephi.
RevTestament Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 29 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Smith was a sloppy and careless con artist when he wrote Nephi quoting Peter quoting Moses when Peter wasn't even born yet. Let me help you... if you look at the bottom of the pages in the Book of Mormon, you will find when each of the prophets/scribes who wrote, did so. There is an approximate date for the events at the bottom of most of the pages. You will find as you continue in your cut and paste from other critics that they get many things wrong, because they haven't actually learned about the Book of Mormon, but just are copy pasting from others and the errors get compounded from one misinformed person to the next. The critics live in their own "created" world of criticism about the Book of Mormon, and are quite often out of touch with the reality of the subject, but are content to copy one another's errors.
halconero Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 43 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Smith was a sloppy and careless con artist when he wrote Nephi quoting Peter quoting Moses when Peter wasn't even born yet. I don't think he actually reads anything in these threads, guys. 3
savedwheat Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Let me help you... if you look at the bottom of the pages in the Book of Mormon, you will find when each of the prophets/scribes who wrote, did so. There is an approximate date for the events at the bottom of most of the pages. You will find as you continue in your cut and paste from other critics that they get many things wrong, because they haven't actually learned about the Book of Mormon, but just are copy pasting from others and the errors get compounded from one misinformed person to the next. The critics live in their own "created" world of criticism about the Book of Mormon, and are quite often out of touch with the reality of the subject, but are content to copy one another's errors. It actually doesn't matter when they wrote it because they were all written before the formation of the KJV. Of course Joseph Smith just made it all up with animals that didn't exist in the Americans running around in America. Like I said, he was a careless and sloppy con artist. Edited January 25, 2016 by savedwheat
RevTestament Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: It actually doesn't matter when they wrote it because they were all written before the formation of the KJV. Of course Joseph Smith just made it all up with animals that didn't exist in the Americans running around in America. Like I said, he was a careless and sloppy con artist. What animals would that be? elephants? Horses? Chickens? Goats? please be more specific. The KJV is not as precisely conformed to in the Book of Mormon as most critics let on. They also fail to take into account that the publisher, Grandin, was given some leeway in correcting grammar and used the KJV to do it - in other words he conformed the hand written manuscript to be like the KJV in many places. Lastly, the Book of Mormon is a translation and was translated in the high style of the King James by the Lord on purpose. After all there weren't that many other versions back then. That is what the colonists knew and were comfortable with. Changing the wording too much would surely make some readers uncomfortable with it, so the Lord used what the people knew. When Jerome wrote his version of the Bible, it was poorly received because he departed from the usual phraseology people were used to. The Catholic Church stuck with it tho because it contained the changes they wanted at the time to promote their theology.,.,fascinating subject, that,... you should read up on that, and how it was prophesied in the Book of Mormon.
halconero Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 The same could be said of your researching ability. Seriously, it doesn't take much to show some humility and say "oops, sorry. I misread the narrative. I get why Peter being born isn't an issue now." You could even go down the route Sunstoned suggested and talk about the phrasing of the verses, which is a super interesting topic. 1
savedwheat Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 You're missing the point. Quoting the KJV when the KJV was not even written shows fraud. Poster removed
halconero Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 Okay, sweet. This is a good starting point, and the one Sunstoned suggested. I'm too tired to really argue it at this time of night (stomachache woke me up), but it will be fun tomorrow.
Jude2 Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 1 hour ago, savedwheat said: You're missing the point. Quoting the KJV when the KJV was not even written shows fraud. I think you need to understand that you have shot yourself in the foot by quoting from source which are misleading. Everyone here has read the Book of Mormon, many times over, we know what's in there. I suggest you get one for yourself and read it. You could make your own notes about what it says and how it contradicts the Bible. Compare what it teaches about Jesus to what the Bible teaches. Then you won't have to depend on the false claims of others and we can stop laughing at some of the silly things you post. We can take what you say more seriously.
Bobbieaware Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, savedwheat said: Smith was a sloppy and careless con artist when he wrote Nephi quoting Peter quoting Moses when Peter wasn't even born yet. ... Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also. (2 Nephi 29:8) You continue to be so sloppy in your polemics that you're going to end up losing all credibility. Do you not understand it is not the prophet Nephi (the Nephi who lived over six hundred later than the writer of 1st and 2nd Neph) who is speaking in 3 Nephi 20, but it is actually the Lord Jesus Christ himself who is teaching the Nephites! So in all likelihood the reason why Peter and the Savior (as recorded in the Book of Mormon) sound similar is because the Savior taught Peter the very same doctrine he taught the Nephites. So in his epistle Peter is very likely recounting the teachings of the Savior, and the later Nephi is quoting the Savior directly as he taught the Nephites. Bottom line? The Savior taught the same doctrine to his disciples in ancient America as he did to his disciples in the Holy Land. Both Peter and the Nephites were taught the same things by the same Lord, hence the similarity. And as a matter of fact, the Book of Mormon itself tells us TO EXPECT that the Lord will teach the very same things to the Nephies as he taught to his apostles in the Holy Land, and for this reason both the Bible and the Book of Mormon will have many similarities... 41 ... and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed (the Book of Mormon) as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (the Bible); wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth. (1 Nephi 13:41) By the way, it would do you well to admit you made a stupid mistake rather than continuing to plow ahead as if you weren't caught red-handed in your ignorance. A little humility will go a long way toward establishing a better rapport with the Latter-day Saints on this board. Edited January 25, 2016 by Bobbieaware 1
busybee Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 11 hours ago, savedwheat said: One of my favorites to show J. Smith was a con artist is his new translation of Isaiah added several chapters that were never there before. The Dead Sea Scrolls show what we have today is the same Isaiah, but the Smith comes along and adds more chapters out of nowhere. This fact alone should cause you to leave the Mormon cult. Total fraud. He is using his mind to try to deceive you, and hence, what is born is this cult. But it only feeds a certain kind of cult member who is mostly in his feelings and doesn't double check anything. So you get about 5 million of those type of people around the world. Not a lot. But still disturbing because they are going to Hell. Make that 15 million. You might want to do some double checking yourself. You must be the answer to my prayer for patience. 1
The Nehor Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 5 hours ago, savedwheat said: You're missing the point. Quoting the KJV when the KJV was not even written shows fraud. Wrong you unsaved moron. I would give you more credit if you came up with this on your own but no, you stole it from someone else. You have no idea how translation works do you? When you are translating you use phrases in the new language familiar to your readers that match the intended meaning of the original passage. If it matches in meaning a phrase from the bible why not use that phrase. You are a troll who also manages to be a soporific dullard. Have you considered that you are pretty much the worst candidate as an ambassador for your faith ever?
The Nehor Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 6 hours ago, savedwheat said: It actually doesn't matter when they wrote it because they were all written before the formation of the KJV. Of course Joseph Smith just made it all up with animals that didn't exist in the Americans running around in America. Like I said, he was a careless and sloppy con artist. As a careless and sloppy plagiarist I am not sure you have room to look down on him. You are also wrong and willfully ignorant. Pretty sure that can damn you too. Things are not looking good for you. Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
Anakin7 Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 Not to mention to savedby wheat that computer stylometry has shown and proven that there were/are multiple authors in the book of Mormon and absolutly none of the wordprint patterns match Joseph Smiths wordprints. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
volgadon Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 9 hours ago, canard78 said: It's a shame because it would have been interesting to have an intelligent discussion about how Peter's paraphrasing of the scripture (instead of the original) ended up in the Book of Mormon. I started a new thread where you can do just that.
Avatar4321 Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 10 hours ago, savedwheat said: Smith was a sloppy and careless con artist when he wrote Nephi quoting Peter quoting Moses when Peter wasn't even born yet. you realize that it was Jesus speaking in 3 Nephi 20 and this was after His resurrection... at less you should if you read the Book of Mormon
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