mfbukowski Posted March 3, 2018 Posted March 3, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Exiled said: Truth cannot be out there- cannot exist independently of the human mind- because sentences cannot so exist, or be out there. The world is out there, but descriptions of the world are not. Only descriptions of the world can be true or false. The world on its own- unaided by the describing activities of human beings- cannot." Richard Rorty- Contingency Irony and Solidarity, P 5. Can't "true or false" be something independent of human beings? We may not have the capacity to describe the world outside of our perceptions but does that mean that the "true or false" cannot exist outside of our descriptive abilities? How can things be true? Only sentences can be true or false. "The cat is on the mat" is either true or false and is a sentence about our perceptions- a perception of a cat and a perception of a mat. Perhaps it is a hallucination or not. Yet it still would be a statement about our perceptions- "our perception of the cat is "on" - an English convention- our perception of the mat" "My perception of the test tube is that it is pink, and therefore by the accepted conventions of science, a pink solution indicates an acid (base) environment, therefore we can conclude that by the conventions of science we would call this solution "acid" So everything including science is based on 1- shared perceptions- everyone in the lab agrees the test tube is pink- and 2- the shared linguistic pool of "science" which has -SOLEY through human perception- built up "knowledge" not about the world, but about human perceptions and how they help us pragmatically. One does not put something CALLED "acid" on the finger because it "burns" and causes "injury" The world does not care that "acid causes injury" or that "acid" has many uses to humanity. The only importance acid has is in our perceptions of what is important or useful. The world just IS, our perceptions are irrelevant to it. Yes of course we build our own humanized world to live in - we call those "houses". We essentially are creating our own humanized world with every word we speak. Here I am trying to explain my humanized world to keep it in harmony with your perceived humanized reality or world, but that cannot be done if you do not understand that we have our own little humanized worlds. You are in a heated or air conditioned room, reading this on a screen. Your world is totally one created by humans and you are speaking a human language trying to convey human thoughts How could folks not understand that? Does the world care if the human race disappears tomorrow? Not at all. Humans and human culture is not about thw world it is about human perceptions of what is important or useful. What your significant other wants to do this afternoon is important in your world, in mine it is unknowable and irrelevant. In fact virtually everything you find important may not be important to me at all. Science is about what works for all human perceptions, religion is about what is important to us individually. Two different subjects Got stuff to do which is more important than this. Have a good day Maybe this will help http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/guest-post-justifying-visions/ Watch the TED neuroscientist piece Edited March 3, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted March 3, 2018 Posted March 3, 2018 35 minutes ago, Exiled said: Truth cannot be out there- cannot exist independently of the human mind- because sentences cannot so exist, or be out there. The world is out there, but descriptions of the world are not. Only descriptions of the world can be true or false. The world on its own- unaided by the describing activities of human beings- cannot." Richard Rorty- Contingency Irony and Solidarity, P 5. Can't "true or false" be something independent of human beings? We may not have the capacity to describe the world outside of our perceptions but does that mean that the "true or false" cannot exist outside of our descriptive abilities? One more When you say "chair" that is a symbolic grunt which is a SYMBOL of a chair. It is not a chair itself. It does not "represent" "chairness". Is a rock you sit on a chair? Is a chaise lounge a chair? Is a stool a chair? And yet these are very simple symbols What about the symbol of "Freedom" which people die for? Is it rational to die for symbols? Is it rational to die for your children? Or to protect people or be kind? Is the sentence "murder is wrong" true? On what basis? Human convention? If human convention rules in morality and human perception rules in science, what else matters? No words to not "represent" the world, they represent- at best- human perceptions of the world. Is "red" real? Explaining it in terms of light frequencies is not what I see when I say red- and that description of light frequencies is irrelevant to a blind man trying to imagine "red" You either know the human perception of it or you do not- the word only represents the perception, and ambiguously at that. Is it fire engine red or burgundy? How do you tell a blind man the difference? If the world was not about perception, you could explain it to someone who did not have the perception. What about the smell of bacon or the sound of a trumpet or sandpaper vs velvet? How about the itch of a mosquito bite? How about the love of your children? Words do not represent the human phenomena of any of this, yet the phenomena- the feeling- is what we find important
Michael Sudworth Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: How can things be true? There are several ways. 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Only sentences can be true or false. This is a fantastic example of a statement that is false.
mfbukowski Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: There are several ways. This is a fantastic example of a statement that is false. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-deflationary/ Refute it and get famous. 1
mfbukowski Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: There are several ways. This is a fantastic example of a statement that is false. I honestly hope this helps you down the path away from your delusions.- from the above article. God does not need YOUR definition of truth or falsity to exist or to be a force in your life. Quote 6. The Deflationary Theory of Falsity Truth and falsity are a package deal. It would be hard to imagine someone having the concept of truth without also having the concept of falsity. One obvious question to ask the proponent of the deflationary theory of truth, then, is how the theory is to be extended to falsity. A natural account of the concept of falsity defines it in terms of the concept of truth. Thus, someone has the concept of falsehood just in case they accept instances of the schema: (F-prop) The proposition that P is false if and only if the proposition that P is not true A second, and initially slightly different, account of falsity defines it directly in terms of negation. According to this view, someone has the concept of falsity just in case they accept instances of the schema: (F-prop*) The proposition that P is false if and only if it is not the case that P Many deflationists suppose that that (F-prop) and (F-prop*) in fact implicitly define the same concept of falsity (cf Horwich 1994). The key idea here is that there seems no reason to distinguish being true from being the case. If there is no distinction between being true and being the case, presumably there is also no distinction between ‘It is not the case that p’ and ‘It is not true that p’. In addition, however, ‘It is not true that p’ is plausibly synonymous with ‘the proposition that p is not true’; and this means that (F-prop) and (F-prop*) are equivalent. As we will shortly see, this account of falsity, though certainly a natural one, leaves the deflationary theory open to an important objection concerning truth-value gaps. So all you have to do is attack those truth-value gaps and you win the game! Want to play? Edited March 4, 2018 by mfbukowski
Avatar4321 Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 On 2/25/2018 at 9:06 PM, Mhcapa1 said: I agree that we have free will and that God is always ready and waiting for people who will pause from "focusing horizontally" so to speak, pause from focusing solely on the the way we see things down here, and seek Him, "look up" so to speak. Another passage in Isaiah comes to mind: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:8-11 KJV And Ive read about Joseph Smith having the attitude that religious freedom was good. As written here: Many of Joseph Smith’s earlier statements and actions reflected these feelings as well. The Nauvoo City Council had passed an ordinance in 1841 declaring, “Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, Latter-day Saints, Quakers, Episcopals, Universalists, Unitarians, Mohammedans [Muslims], and all other religious sects and denominations whatever, shall have free toleration, and equal privileges in this city.” A substantial fine and a prison term of six months could be the punishment for “any person be guilty of ridiculing, abusing, or otherwise depreciating another, in consequence of his religion, or of disturbing, or interrupting, any religious meeting.” The English socialist and religious skeptic John Finch seemed stunned when he visited Nauvoo that Joseph Smith “was in the practice of inviting strangers, who visited Nauvoo, of every shade of politics or religion, to lecture to his people.” Joseph told Finch that “he allowed liberty of conscience to all, and was not afraid of any party drawing his people away from him.” The surprised Finch reported Joseph was “liberal and charitable in speaking of other sects [and] said the great principle of Christianity was love.” https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865692759/Op-ed-Joseph-Smith-was-a-champion-of-religious-liberty.html That's all great, but How can one read those things that Paul wrote and Jesus said, and not see the discrepancy between the lds doctrine and their statements? How can I place my faith in the lds doctrine of regression of gods, ability for all humans to become gods, necessity of sealed marriage to become a god, necessity of dietary restriction to be baptized.... How can I place my faith in all of that without taking my faith out of what Jesus and Paul taught? It's like when I ask these questions I just get "you have to have faith", shifting to God is one but it's one in purpose, avoidance of answers to my questions, and then we're not forcing you to believe everyone has freewill... I'm not saying anyone's forcing anyone to believe anything... It's just when lds tell me that their doctrine is supported by the Bible, I'm going ok... Can you please explain to me how these passages fit with lds doctrine? Then there's the question I have about being born again. I still don't get how are existence fits with that either... Well perhaps the problem is you aren't supposed to put your faith in doctrine, you're supposed to put your faith in Jesus Christ 1
Bernard Gui Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 On 3/3/2018 at 12:12 AM, Mhcapa1 said: But ya, ...what are you getting at though when asking me if his body is the same or not? Does God have a body?
Bernard Gui Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 On 3/3/2018 at 12:31 AM, Mhcapa1 said: So the book of mormon says that Jesus chose 12 disciples in Israel. And 12 on this side of the world.. The people on that side of the world will be judged by those 12 disciples in Israel. The people on this side of the world will be judged by the 12 on this side of the world. And the 12 on this side of the world will be judged by the 12 Jesus chose in Isreal? Also - I read 3 Nephi 11 Great. I hope you liked it. Not exactly. The Jewish 12 will judge the 12 Tribes of Israel. The Nephite 12 will judge their people who were and are in this land.
Calm Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Great. I hope you liked it. Not exactly. The Jewish 12 will judge the 12 Tribes of Israel. The Nephite 12 will judge their people who were and are in this land. I believe he was talking about the original 12 having authority over the Nephite 12. Quote of Joseph Fielding Smith indicating this here: https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-39-3-nephi-1-7?lang=eng Edited March 6, 2018 by Calm
Meerkat Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 On 3/2/2018 at 8:54 PM, Mhcapa1 said: I know Jesus is the Messiah promised in Isaiah. I know Jesus lives. Jesus as the "Passover lamb" whose blood "covers" to save from the "angel of death" ... Jesus as the 2nd Adam, the only begotten son of God .... Being like a branch cut off of the Adam tree and grafted into the Jesus tree or vine ... Jesus being the king priest prophesied before the Babylonian exile ... All of that makes sense to me. I believe that Jesus gave the sacrifice that saves and then sat down at the right hand of God. I believe that the choice people have is to live for themselves, their desires, their goals etc Or To offer their life - the time God has given them here on this Earth - up to God, to say here's everything I have, I want to do what you want me to do God. I'm not saying that you will be perfectly "sinless" - if that were possible then there would be no need for Jesus to do what he did and die! I'm saying that you will have a lot better chance at accomplishing the things God has for you to do with the time He has given you - the things that when your time down here is up will actually be worth spending the time you were given down here doing. I don't understand the Mormon ideas Ive read like the pre existence, the dietary rules that are necessary for baptism ...which is necessary for salvation ...eternal marriage ... These things do not seem to be supported by the Bible I have read. Your beliefs appear very close to the Mormons. The Bible we use is generally the King James. You may not interpret the scriptures as we do. But most religions have some doctrines they focus on as particularly significant: Sabbath day, Godhead, speaking in tongues, prophecy, Mary, etc. I would say ours centers in Jesus Christ, the authority to act in His name, the importance of God's pattern of speaking to mankind through prophets, the Holy Ghost confirming truth, and all the sacred ordinences such as baptism, confirmation, etc. I like your statement "Doing what God wants me to do." That is high on Mormons' list as well. Premortal life: Jeremiah 1:4 "Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. 7 ¶ But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak." You may read that differently than we do, but in context of other scriptures and modern day revelation, it supports our beliefs. There are many things that can be confusing in the scriptures (hence, many religions.) Thats why Mormons say "Read the Book of Mormon. Pray about it. Don't take anyone's word. Ask God per Moroni 10:3-8. If God tells you the Book is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet and his teachings should be considered. Are there scriptures that support LDS unique teachings? I believe different verses speak support to different people Word of Wisdom: Daniel 1:11 "Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, 12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink. 13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king’s meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants. 14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days. 15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king’s meat. 16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse. 17 ¶ As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams." Eternal Marriage: 1 Cor. 11:11 "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." Becoming like God: Genesis 3:22 "22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" 1 John 3:1-3 "1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." The importance of a living prophet: Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." 2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The difficulty understanding scriptures correctly: (from Wikipedia) The first seven ecumenical councils: This era begins with the First Council of Nicaea, which enunciated the Nicene Creed that in its original form and as modified by the First Council of Constantinople of 381 was seen by all later councils as the touchstone of orthodoxy on the doctrine of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church accept all seven of these councils as legitimate ecumenical councils. The Oriental Orthodox Churches accept only the first three, while the Church of the East accepts only the first two. There is also one additional council (the Quinisext Council), which was held between the sixth and seventh ecumenical councils (in AD 692), and which issued organizational, liturgical and canonical rules but did not discuss theology. It is accepted as ecumenical by the Eastern Orthodox Church alone, however the Eastern Orthodox do not give it a number, but rather count it as a continuation of the sixth council. The Catholic Church does not accept the Quinisext Council,[2][3] but it considers that there have been many more ecumenical councils after the first seven." This illustrates the challenge we mortals have interpreting the same passages of scripture. Hence the continuing need for prophets, apostles, prayer, the Holy Ghost, and authority from God to act in His name to overcome darkness and confusion. I know it's a lot to digest. These are my buckshot answers to some of your buckshot questions! 2
Mhcapa1 Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 On 3/5/2018 at 6:24 PM, Avatar4321 said: Well perhaps the problem is you aren't supposed to put your faith in doctrine, you're supposed to put your faith in Jesus Christ ...Then how could I agree to requiring adherence to dietary restriction in order to get baptized (which is required to live with God right?) ...how could I agree with temple marriage and eternal marriage being necessary to live with God? ....in the king Follett discourse Joseph Smith said "we have supposed God has been God for all eternity, I will refute that" ...? Like I asked before - "How can one read those things that Paul wrote and Jesus said, and not see the discrepancy between the lds doctrine and their statements? How can I place my faith in the lds doctrine of regression of gods, ability for all humans to become gods, necessity of sealed marriage to become a god, necessity of dietary restriction to be baptized.... How can I place my faith in all of that without taking my faith out of what Jesus and Paul taught?"
Mhcapa1 Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 On 3/6/2018 at 1:33 AM, Bernard Gui said: Does God have a body? Jesus: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24 KJV
Mhcapa1 Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 On 3/6/2018 at 1:45 AM, Bernard Gui said: Great. I hope you liked it. Not exactly. The Jewish 12 will judge the 12 Tribes of Israel. The Nephite 12 will judge their people who were and are in this land. ... Do they get their names on the foundations like the 12 in the Bible?
Mhcapa1 Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 On 3/6/2018 at 8:26 AM, Meerkat said: Your beliefs appear very close to the Mormons. The Bible we use is generally the King James. You may not interpret the scriptures as we do. But most religions have some doctrines they focus on as particularly significant: Sabbath day, Godhead, speaking in tongues, prophecy, Mary, etc. I would say ours centers in Jesus Christ, the authority to act in His name, the importance of God's pattern of speaking to mankind through prophets, the Holy Ghost confirming truth, and all the sacred ordinences such as baptism, confirmation, etc. I like your statement "Doing what God wants me to do." That is high on Mormons' list as well. Premortal life: Jeremiah 1:4 "Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. 7 ¶ But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak." You may read that differently than we do, but in context of other scriptures and modern day revelation, it supports our beliefs. There are many things that can be confusing in the scriptures (hence, many religions.) Thats why Mormons say "Read the Book of Mormon. Pray about it. Don't take anyone's word. Ask God per Moroni 10:3-8. If God tells you the Book is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet and his teachings should be considered. Are there scriptures that support LDS unique teachings? I believe different verses speak support to different people Word of Wisdom: Daniel 1:11 "Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, 12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink. 13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king’s meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants. 14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days. 15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king’s meat. 16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse. 17 ¶ As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams." Eternal Marriage: 1 Cor. 11:11 "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." Becoming like God: Genesis 3:22 "22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" 1 John 3:1-3 "1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." The importance of a living prophet: Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." 2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The difficulty understanding scriptures correctly: (from Wikipedia) The first seven ecumenical councils: This era begins with the First Council of Nicaea, which enunciated the Nicene Creed that in its original form and as modified by the First Council of Constantinople of 381 was seen by all later councils as the touchstone of orthodoxy on the doctrine of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church accept all seven of these councils as legitimate ecumenical councils. The Oriental Orthodox Churches accept only the first three, while the Church of the East accepts only the first two. There is also one additional council (the Quinisext Council), which was held between the sixth and seventh ecumenical councils (in AD 692), and which issued organizational, liturgical and canonical rules but did not discuss theology. It is accepted as ecumenical by the Eastern Orthodox Church alone, however the Eastern Orthodox do not give it a number, but rather count it as a continuation of the sixth council. The Catholic Church does not accept the Quinisext Council,[2][3] but it considers that there have been many more ecumenical councils after the first seven." This illustrates the challenge we mortals have interpreting the same passages of scripture. Hence the continuing need for prophets, apostles, prayer, the Holy Ghost, and authority from God to act in His name to overcome darkness and confusion. I know it's a lot to digest. These are my buckshot answers to some of your buckshot questions! Your beliefs appear very close to the Mormons. The Bible we use is generally the King James. You may not interpret the scriptures as we do. But most religions have some doctrines they focus on as particularly significant: Sabbath day, Godhead, speaking in tongues, prophecy, Mary, etc. I would say ours centers in Jesus Christ, the authority to act in His name, the importance of God's pattern of speaking to mankind through prophets, the Holy Ghost confirming truth, and all the sacred ordinences such as baptism, confirmation, etc. Do the lds view God as king of the universe, and Jesus as God in the flesh, who freed mankind from the slavery Adam and Eve's actions put them in by purchasing them to be his? I like your statement "Doing what God wants me to do." That is high on Mormons' list as well. "Premortal life: Jeremiah 1:4 "Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. 7 ¶ But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak." You may read that differently than we do, but in context of other scriptures and modern day revelation, it supports our beliefs." .... I see how that could be interpreted to refer to premortal existence as a spirit child in heaven before obtaining a physical body on Earth. I also see how that could be interpreted as God's foreknowledge. God's foreknowledge can be seen in other places in the bible. Two that came to mind: And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Luke 4:17-21 KJV Search the scriptures (the tanakh/old testament); for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39 KJV I also think of Job He and the other couple guys argued throughout that book about why the bad things were happening to Job. They all explained how they knew. Then God showed up - Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken. Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof? Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth? Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth? Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew? Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it? The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen. Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth? Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee? Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are? Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven, When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together? Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions, When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait? Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat. Job 38:1-41 KJV Are there other places in the Bible that could be interpreted to refer to the preexistence? I would be interested in relooking at those. "There are many things that can be confusing in the scriptures (hence, many religions.) Thats why Mormons say "Read the Book of Mormon. Pray about it. Don't take anyone's word. Ask God per Moroni 10:3-8. If God tells you the Book is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet and his teachings should be considered." ... I like this because I have gone to different churches, different denominations, and "non denominational" ones too. Then while trying to be a doer of what Bible I'd read, things seemed a lot harder than I expected. I got tired of it. I fasted and prayed and pointed to passages and verses and proverbs. I was like this says do x, you will experience y... Why is y taking so long... Why does it seem like I'm getting all this resistance in diff areas of life... What gives?!? If I'm misunderstanding this you need to let me know. One thing led to another and I got a huge hunger to read the whole bible. I pretty much pushed pause on life lol. Turned off the TV, stopped with all the teachings and teachers and little books, got off the internet, was in a house out in the country with 50+ versions of the Bible on my phone, a concordance, Hebrew and Greek lexicon and dictionaries, and a pile of blank notepads. I'm self employed and hadn't had time off for myself since inception of the business. So I wrapped up the current work and took off. Woke up every day, prayerfully read the Bible in chronological order. Compared versions. Went to the Hebrew or Greek a lot. It can be done in 40 days if you do it like that and it's worth the time. Then I went church by church and read the doctrinal statements and why they did what they did and why they were organized like they were. Then a couple of missionaries stopped by and started telling me the Bible had been corrupted. And I was going what? How could that be? How could someone add and remove stuff from those books yet keep them all so integrated and unified as a whole? The thing would fall apart! It's like a hundred stories with their own little storylines and plots all together forming one collective storyline with one collective plot. They said they hadnt read the whole Bible and they didn't know what I meant. Anyways... I like that you say don't just take somebody else's word for it but read and pray to know if it's true. The thing is... The Bible doesn't tell us to pray to know if it's true... It encourages us to test it. The 2 missionaries also said to just read and pray to know it's true. When they said that the Bereans came to mind. Out of all the places Paul went to share the good news of Jesus being the promised Messiah, one place really stands out. "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11 KJV This was one of, if not the only, place that Paul was not attacked and chased out of town by the locals. "Are there scriptures that support LDS unique teachings? I believe different verses speak support to different people Word of Wisdom: Daniel 1:11 "Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, 12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink. 13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king’s meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants. 14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days. 15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king’s meat. 16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse. 17 ¶ As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams." " ... The Ancient Israelites, preparing to enter into Canaan, were directed by the Lord to not “play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you to eat of his sacrifice” (Exodus 34:15) How much of the meat provided by the Babylonians to these Jewish exiles, would have been sacrificed to idols, and then made available to the royal court? Pork and horse meat were eaten by the Babylonians, which would have been classified as unclean on the lists of Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. Another thing to consider - how likely is it that animals classified as clean by the Torah were slaughtered appropriately with the intention of removing wide traces of their blood? Besides all of that, read Ezekiel where God is telling about the coming Babylonian exile: "Therefore thou shalt set thy face toward the siege of Jerusalem, and thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it. And, behold, I will lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thee from one side to another, till thou hast ended the days of thy siege. Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof. And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day: from time to time shalt thou eat it. Thou shalt drink also water by measure, the sixth part of an hin: from time to time shalt thou drink. And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them. Then said I, Ah Lord God ! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth. Ezekiel 4:7-14 KJV And in Hosea: Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God, thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor. The floor and the winepress shall not feed them, and the new wine shall fail in her. They shall not dwell in the Lord's land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria. Hosea 9:1-3 KJV I'll concede that there is a chance that various vegetables and grains in Babylon that ended up in the royal court could have been offered to idols as well... The emphasis in the Tanach is that the Israelites in the exile would have to eat “unclean” food. "Eternal Marriage: 1 Cor. 11:11 "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." .... Jesus in Matthew 22:24-32 Those guys followed the law of God given through Moses in regards to God's commands on marriage, were married on Earth, and Jesus is saying that they will not be married in heaven but will be like the angels of God in heaven. And Jesus in Matthew 19:12 says some choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (If you don't know what a eunuch is - go take a look at that) And Paul doesn't say you must be married either - Look at 1 Corinthians 7 He says it's fine either way, married or not married. He even says bc single people are not burdened with concerns that come with marriage they might focus more on serving God. So why would Jesus and Paul say this stuff and not a single mention of get married because it is a requirement so that you can live with God in the highest level of heaven and have spirit children etc if exaltation etc is the goal and it was required? "Becoming like God: Genesis 3:22 "22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" " ... - why was Satan thrown down out of heaven? - when telling Eve the opposite of what God said, what did satan appeal to Eve with? And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:4-5 KJV We are like God in the sense that we know right from wrong. Satan promised Eve that she would be like God. It was a half-truth. She was like God only in that she could identify good and evil. Satan’s lie is still the same. Man’s pride believes the lie because he does not want God, rather he wants to be god. How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’" Isaiah 14:12-14 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" Ezekiel 28:11-19 I also find it interesting that the son of perdition will proclaim himself to be God: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV Which comes full circle to the subject of the first post in this thread: Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord , and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10 KJV Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV (Also, interestingly, speaks of God's foreknowledge) Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isaiah 44:8 KJV Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6 KJV "1 John 3:1-3 "1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." " ... That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Romans 9:8 KJV But as many as received him (Jesus - the Word made flesh), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12 KJV "The importance of a living prophet: Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." 2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." .... Lds says there's only 1 prophet on the earth at a time right? He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1 Corinthians 14:4-5, 12, 22-25, 29-31 KJV The difficulty understanding scriptures correctly: (from Wikipedia) The first seven ecumenical councils: This era begins with the First Council of Nicaea, which enunciated the Nicene Creed that in its original form and as modified by the First Council of Constantinople of 381 was seen by all later councils as the touchstone of orthodoxy on the doctrine of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church accept all seven of these councils as legitimate ecumenical councils. The Oriental Orthodox Churches accept only the first three, while the Church of the East accepts only the first two. There is also one additional council (the Quinisext Council), which was held between the sixth and seventh ecumenical councils (in AD 692), and which issued organizational, liturgical and canonical rules but did not discuss theology. It is accepted as ecumenical by the Eastern Orthodox Church alone, however the Eastern Orthodox do not give it a number, but rather count it as a continuation of the sixth council. The Catholic Church does not accept the Quinisext Council,[2][3] but it considers that there have been many more ecumenical councils after the first seven." This illustrates the challenge we mortals have interpreting the same passages of scripture. Hence the continuing need for prophets, apostles, prayer, the Holy Ghost, and authority from God to act in His name to overcome darkness and confusion. I know it's a lot to digest. These are my buckshot answers to some of your buckshot questions! .... I am vaguely aware of the council of nicea The thing is - I stopped blindly following "religions" I was tired of having a bunch of middleman preachers telling me what the Bible says. I then prayerfully read the entire Bible in chronological order. It seems to me that there are a bunch of people and different leaders. Then there is God, king of the universe. Just like God delivered the Isrealites out of bondage to Pharoah to be His people - they no longer were under Pharoahs rule - they were under Gods rule. When the 7th day of the week came - they weren't forced to work - they were told to rest. When the 7th year came, they were told to let the land rest. When the 50th year came they were told to release debt burdens and let the land rest an extra year. They were no longer subjects of Pharoah but were God's people. Jesus opened the way for all the sons of Adam (all mankind not just Isrealites) to no longer be enslaved and sentenced to "surely die" God is king of an eternal kingdom with citizens. All of these different churches seem to differ on small things Some I think it could be just to control ppl and have power in this life, but I don't know. What they all seem to agree on is that there aren't billions of gods and God the Father is one way down the line. And eternal marriage. And all these rules about diet or Sabbath (on Sunday... The 1st day of the week? BTW the fact that Jesus was rushed off the cross and put in a borrowed grave on Friday in order to not violate Sabbath (could also say He rested on the Sabbath lol) and then they went to the tomb on the first day of the week (which is also the feast of first fruits... And Jesus is the first fruits of all who will be raised.... Why are all these churches saying the first day of the week is the "Sabbath"? It completely doesn't fit with the deep teachings in the Bible... But I digress - other churches dont make you follow dietary restrictions or any of that before you can be baptized into Christ...
Mhcapa1 Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 Really guys - I know I started branching off into my other questions... and there was some discussion of philosophy, that almost shifted into quantum mechanics there by😁 (which is a cool subject btw) But the main question is in my first post. Mfbukowski - You said there are answers but they were too deep for me to understand at this point? Try me man.. And I appreciate your comments. Anakin, Bernard - I appreciate your comments too. And you also Meerkat. We all believe in God right, and we all believe that Jesus paid the price that we couldn't pay on our own right? So there would be common ground there if we're talking about the same Jesus - the promised Messiah as per the Bible. But ya - besides the other machine gun questions lol - the main one was in my first post. Maybe I should call it a string of connected questions since there are more than one, but ya. Despite God saying before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, if I somehow find a way to fit the idea that God the Father was once a man on a different planet with a god above Him, and that that god above him was once a man on another planet with a god above him... And back and back and back to innumerable gods out there... And that humans here on this Earth can be exalted to being gods, and forward from there... If I somehow buy into that idea despite God saying "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me"... Then it gets into how to be exalted to godhood - LDS would say in order to live with God a person has to get baptized - which requires keeping the word of wisdom right? I'm not saying the w o w is or isn't good advice... But necessary for baptism, which is necessary for salvation? I have to ask - what about Colossians 2:16, Matthew 15:11, Romans 14, etc? But let's say you get over that hurdle too ....then it gets into you have to be married to go to the highest heaven and become a god of your own planet so that you can have spirit children... Right? You'd need an eternal wife to have spirit children... I mean, that seems logical... But then I'd have to throw out more things Jesus said and Paul said... Like Jesus in Matthew 22:24-32 Those guys followed the law of God given through Moses in regards to God's commands on marriage, were married on Earth, and Jesus is saying that they will not be married in heaven but will be like the angels of God in heaven. And Jesus in Matthew 19:12 says some choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (If you don't know what a eunuch is - go take a look at that) And Paul doesn't say you must be married either - Look at 1 Corinthians 7 He says it's fine either way, married or not married. He even says bc single people are not burdened with concerns that come with marriage they might focus more on serving God. So why would Jesus and Paul say this stuff and not a single mention of get married so you can live with God in the highest level of heaven and have spirit children etc if exaltation etc is the goal and it was required? I haven't found an lds person that has been able to give me a reasonable answer to these questions, they just tell me I need to have faith... But arent they are essentially asking me to place my faith in their teachings instead of placing my faith in things Jesus and Paul said and taught? Wouldnt I have to disregard some of the things Jesus and Paul taught in order to believe and follow the lds stuff?
MCootey Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 There are over 5,000 Christian churches in the world all claiming to be the one, How can one decide what's true and what's false? How can we, if belonging already to an organization leave for another? What will people think of me? How will they treat me? Colossians 2 is one of your questions, specifically verse 16. Paul is imprisoned at this time in Rome. Paul's Epistle here to the Colossians is don’t fall prey to people mocking you because your abstaining from something you feel the lord desires you not to do. Don’t fall prey to peoples invitations for festivities, celebrations like the new moon or avoid those people that mock the sabbath.Paul was writing to people living in a time unlike today. To this area or region christianity was knew and odd for them to witness. Being Christian was strange to them, and what's strange can lead to fear. Imagine Roman soldiers everywhere, slavery, what we call cults or pageans or evil was the opposite then. They were the majority and we christians were the evil ones. Matthew 15:11 Is I hope not meant for insult from you because that would be ludicrous for you having spent the time questioning our beliefs. We LDS aren’t defiled. 2 Nephi 25:26 it states: And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. We aren't telling you these things to deceive you or to manipulate you. We aren’t trying to confuse you or draw any unwanted attention toward you. The Spirit of Christ is given to every man that he may know good from evilThe Spirit of Christ is given to every man to judge and know with a perfect knowledge whether something is of God or the devilThe Spirit of Christ will dwell with him that is of a contrite and humble spiritThe Spirit of Christ is sent forth to enlighten the humble and contriteThe Spirit of Christ constraineth usThe Spirit of Christ within me constrains me Satan has a great amount of practice and influence over mankind. We seek God the Eternal Father through his Son and pray the Holy Ghost comforts us in these dark hours. We teach, we request, we serve, we ask, and we pray, but if any discrimination is said or felt then it is by man these things are being said or done. Its possible Satan's influence can even be in a moment like that where one is asking questions and a LDS brother or sister answers wickedly. It's intolerance. Not free agency. The Spirit of Christ is in everyone. We must constantly purge ourselves of ungodliness through repentance. We don’t say or never have said that other church powers are of satan. The Spirit of Christ is with all. Satan is an angel. He is fallen, but an angel nonetheless. We are up against his organization the great and abominable church. Yes, being a church he grants power to those who follow him. Think of the Light and Truth of God as a pristine mirror reflecting all that his kingdom has to offer. A Glorified Eternal Priesthood governing the universe. This mirror was brought to the highest point of a building to influence all. Upon Jesus Death. It fell. scattering all below it. It crashed into thousands of pieces. Many tried repairing it. saying low here, I've got the truth! Another low here I've got the truth! so on and so forth. We are living in a world where that great mirror is back on top. A shining beacon to all. We ask that you come with us. Join us. Be one with us and receive more blessings than you can ever realize. We are simple people. The LDS. We are a melting pot of society filled with Scottish, Iranian, Muslim, Jew, Christian, buddhist, Hindu, Irish, Italian etc. We have Germans, Japanese, Chinese, French, English and Russian. We are a global people. We are changing with the times as best we can. We sin a great deal, we falter, we doubt our God and we betray our vows and covenants just as anyone else has or has done. We don’t deny your gifts. We don’t deny the Spirit of Christ in you. We jus want to be considered righteous rather than ungodly. But according to the lord we are all ungodly. Repent. Ask forgiveness and receive the miracle of forgiveness. The Melchizedek Priesthood is an order of holiness. There are new ways to learn. There are new ways that God our Heavenly Father used to have Israel perform but was lost to them for they fell. He was displeased with them. Their society was disrupted and basically destroyed. 5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.We LDS live by the Bible. We live by the Book of Mormon. We live by the Doctrine and Covenants. We live by the Pearl of Great Price. We live by revelation. We live by the Articles of our Faith and we cherish them everyday like learning how to ride a bike. We fall off, bump our heads, scratch our knees and hands, but we get back on over and over till we are balanced, straight and full of momentum. Matthew 22:24-29Artiles of Faith8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Restored Gospel, not Biblicist.The word of God proceeds from the mouth of a living prophet. Therefore the Bible is not ended. It continues as the Lord sees fit.In Matthew 22: 24-29 The Sadducees tried to trick our lord using learned speech designed and spoken in a way to lead the lord into compromising his position in the Israelite law.The original Greek Bible doesn't say that there will be no marriage in heaven.We the LDS believe in continued revelation. We have a prophet who can receive this revelation. The Godhead provides this revelation. We teach from the scriptures. We teach by the spirit. We teach from the restored gospel not from the way you have been taught. Jesus avoids the Sadducees by responding in a way that is like a teacher speaking to a student who has misbehaved by not studying the present subject.giving in marriage will not occur after the time of the resurrection. Marriage will not occur after the resurrection. This is how you can understand the LDS way of thinking of these particular passages. Marriage is divine, especially when married under the restored gospel. For it isn't till death do you part. It's all time and eternity.That's the key. It's in this life you commit to follow the whole gospel and that includes Celestial Marriage. I hate the word appreciate so I can't say I appreciate your position. Infact I don't, nor will I ever be in your position of discovery as one who isn't getting the keen points of our faith. I grew up LDS. My parents however can relate to you because they were converts.God in His infinite wisdom has created a world between worlds so to speak. For some it is Prison and others it's Paradise. We LDS call it the Spirit world, It's less negative that way and far more positive and easier to swallow. This is where the Sadducees will get a resolution to their insincere questions.Now for your statement below: …...then it gets into you have to be married to go to the highest heaven and become a god of your own planet. Now that's an interesting statement. I'm going to disagree. We have free agency to choose what we feel is right. not unlike Obi Wan Kanobi in the Star Wars film a new hope. “You must do what you feel is right of coarse” The Gospel isn’t what Satan designed. It is our Eternal Father and the light and truth. We all will be resurrected. we all have the grace of God flowing through our lives blessing us. When we are judged we are placed where we have met that specific criteria. Your getting ahead of yourself. no one knows where they will go. That is the Lords business. We have members where one is a member but the spouse isn’t, we have Jack Mormons, Sons of Perdition, criminals, atheist, agnostic, gnostic, orthodox, conservative, democrat, republican, and liberal Mormons. We have LGBT Mormons, Feminist Mormons, Polygamist mormons, fundamental Mormons and children who don’t join the church like my Son. The Lord knows his people, the Lord will advise. The Lord will give a choice. Whether Celestial, Terrestrial, or telestial. Focus on what you can do today, not what will transpire in the future. And Paul doesn't say you must be married either - Look at 1 Corinthians 7 He says it's fine either way, married or not married. He even says bc single people are not burdened with concerns that come with marriage they might focus more on serving God. So why would Jesus and Paul say this stuff and not a single mention of get married so you can live with God in the highest level of heaven and have spirit children etc if exaltation etc is the goal and it was required? But arent they are essentially asking me to place my faith in their teachings instead of placing my faith in things Jesus and Paul said and taught?Wouldn't I have to disregard some of the things Jesus and Paul taught in order to believe and follow the lds stuff?From what I’ve explained to you were not too dissimilar are we? My friend Our Eternal father lives and breathes and sits upon yonder thrown. He is the highest. He is our God hands down, Hallelujah! He has a Son who governs all things, created all things, is the word of God, the messiah and savior of mankind. His name is Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost confirms this. Your feeling it. My suggestion for you is to take up the discussions with elders of the mission field in your area. It won’t hurt and there's no pressure for you to join. Your free agency. Your choice. I hope in this discussion you’ll understand the things we’ve discussed. I hope I answered better than most. So there you have it. Much study and prayer are gifted to you. You should read our doctrine, study our sacred teachings and you will find that the spirit of christ will manifest in a way that it has not done before. James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
pogi Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said: Jesus: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24 KJV Here is what President Hinckley has said about that verse: Quote Of course God is a spirit, and so are you, in the combination of spirit and body that makes of you a living being. From Doctrine and Covenants section 93: Quote 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; 34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. 35 The elements are the tabernacle of God. God and man are spirit beings, clothed with a tabernacle of flesh. The resurrected Christ asked his disciples , “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of baked fish; he took it and ate it in front of them. Christ manifested the corporality of his glorified body through two principal proofs: First, he allowed his disciples to touch him; second, he ate in their presence. Christ did not need food, the only explanation for him eating flesh was to demonstrate to his disciples the truth of the resurrection of the corporeal body after death. The sight of Jesus eating was taken as a certain manifestation of the truth of the resurrection of the human body, with all of the physical elements capable of digesting flesh. Edited March 11, 2018 by pogi 2
pogi Posted March 11, 2018 Posted March 11, 2018 10 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said: Despite God saying before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, if I somehow find a way to fit the idea that God the Father was once a man on a different planet with a god above Him, and that that god above him was once a man on another planet with a god above him... And back and back and back to innumerable gods out there... And that humans here on this Earth can be exalted to being gods, and forward from there... Lets start with this one. For us, there is no other God. Isaiah 43:10 is not saying that there are no other Gods to/for other people, but it is speaking in relative terms for us. That is exactly how Paul explained it in 1 Corinthians 8: Quote 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. The plurality of God's is evident in the scriptures. The Bible speaks of a divine council of Gods. Quote God astandeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (Psalms 82:1) Among the agods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works (Psalms 86:8) From the very beginning of scripture, it is evident that there are a plurality of Gods: Quote And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness (Genesis 1:26) Quote For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Genesis 3:5) Elohim literally means "Gods". The idea of theosis/divinization is not unique to Mormonism, the early church fathers clearly taught it. Quote Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Quote John 10: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which agave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; And of course there are the many passages which speak of Christ being one with the Father, and that we too will be one with them. 2
Bernard Gui Posted March 12, 2018 Posted March 12, 2018 19 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said: ... Do they get their names on the foundations like the 12 in the Bible? Perhaps on Aztecan temples.
Bernard Gui Posted March 12, 2018 Posted March 12, 2018 19 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said: Jesus: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24 KJV Is Jesus God? 1
Meerkat Posted March 12, 2018 Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) On 3/11/2018 at 12:36 AM, Mhcapa1 said: Do the lds view God as king of the universe, and Jesus as God in the flesh, who freed mankind from the slavery Adam and Eve's actions put them in by purchasing them to be his? Implied in your question is the idea that Adam and Eve made a huge mistake that thwarted God's plan for them, and for mankind. You strike me as someone well read on most things Mormon. You are probably aware our 2nd article of faith states: 2 "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression." We believe that the Savior Atoned for Adam and Eve's transgressions, as He did ours, on condition or repentance and enduring to the end. Adam and Eve made possible our mortal experience in which we get to choose slavery or eternal happiness by our desire, thoughts and actions. Judging from your question about Adam and Eve, I hold a nearly opposite view from yours. If God hadn't placed them on earth in a state of innocence, and given them the ability to choose good or evil, they would have been slaves, not knowing the difference between good and evil. They wouldn't have known joy because they would have had nothing to compare it to. They HAD to make a choice between two opposing commandments in order to experience the consequence of sin and understand why they should freely choose obedience to God and why they needed a Redeemer. That choice awakened them to the godly attribute of understanding the difference between right and wrong. That was important. They didn't surprise God with their sin. It was part of the plan from the beginning. Eve saw the necessity of making that choice. She is the heroine of the story, in my opinion. Otherwise all our eternal progress would have been on hold, imo. Jesus Christ, our Savior, was not an afterthout to clean up Adam and Eve's mess. He was prepared from before the foundations of the world-- BEFORE Adam and Eve, to be their Savior, and ours. HE was the key to our erernal joy. Because of Him, we have access to the Father through repentance and forgiveness through Jesus Christ's Atonement for us. Here are some scriptures to support this: 1 Peter 1:18 "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (I read this to mean that, not only was Jesus foreordained BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD-- before Adam and Eve were placed here. It appears that WE were also chosen in pre-mortal life, as were Adam and Eve. We had a premortal life as did Jesus Christ befor our mortal test in which Jesus paid that terrible price for us. Is there another way to read that? And here is a scripture that rings true to me, based on my own life experience from Moses 5:9 "And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will. 10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. 12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters." God has a purpose in mind, I believe. It's a training program for people to prepare to choose, of their own free will, to live in His presence, to inherit all that He as with the Savior. The Bible is full of that doctrine. It isn't a matter of pride, or seeking godhood, or aspiring to anything. It's a matter of embracing virtue and doing what God wills for us. "Nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou wilt." Edited March 12, 2018 by Meerkat
Meerkat Posted March 12, 2018 Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) On 3/11/2018 at 12:36 AM, Mhcapa1 said: Anyways... I like that you say don't just take somebody else's word for it but read and pray to know if it's true. The thing is... The Bible doesn't tell us to pray to know if it's true... It encourages us to test it. The 2 missionaries also said to just read and pray to know it's true. When they said that the Bereans came to mind. Out of all the places Paul went to share the good news of Jesus being the promised Messiah, one place really stands out. "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11 KJV This was one of, if not the only, place that Paul was not attacked and chased out of town by the locals. Thanks for the research. You brought up many interesting points. There frequently appears to be more than one way to look at them. I am very impressed with the Bereans. However, I see much evidence of people becoming converted through spiritual experiences, who were not as rigorous as the Bereans. I don't believe such rigor is the important thing. The Apostle Paul comes to mind. The woman at the well comes to mind. The Centurian "Lord I believe, help Thou mine unbelief" also. The woman with the issue of blood. The cripple Jesus healed at the waters of Bethesda. I am by no stretch, a Berean. You may very well be. But even Bereans need to pray for an answer from God to know what God would have them do, in many cases. See Matt. 7:7-8. Edited March 12, 2018 by Meerkat 2
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