Beside Me there is No God or Anything

[Calm]

"To offer their life - the time God has given them here on this Earth - up to God, to say here's everything I have, I want to do what you want me to do God."

Amen.  We are taught to consecrate our lives to God and his Will.

The "Mormon" things are what we believe God has told us he wants us to do.  Since we believe God is talking to us today just as he talked in the eras of the Bible, we do not require what is taught from our prophets to be identical to the Bible, but we see it as along similar lines...the dietary restrictions of the Jews set them apart as a people as do the current dietary restrictions for LDS, for example.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, Mhcapa1 said:

I was referring to cognitive bias.

...the kind they teach in intel analysis. 

There's a course at George Washington University on it.  I'll look for the textbook.

Def not exactly what you're referring to here!  Lol

I'll have to think some about your comment and question there haha

Oh no not George Washington University

Please don't throw me in that briar patch!   haha

I think I had best turn you over to Bernard and Calm.  I have been grumpy of late. 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

39 minutes ago, Mhcapa1 said:

I don't hold it against you.

I know Jesus is the Messiah promised in Isaiah.  I know Jesus lives.  

Jesus as the "Passover lamb" whose blood "covers" to save from the "angel of death" ...

Jesus as the 2nd Adam, the only begotten son of God ....

Being like a branch cut off of the Adam tree and grafted into the Jesus tree or vine ...

Jesus being the king priest prophesied before the Babylonian exile ...

All of that makes sense to me.

I believe that Jesus gave the sacrifice that saves and then sat down at the right hand of God.

I believe that the choice people have is to live for themselves, their desires, their goals etc

Or

To offer their life - the time God has given them here on this Earth - up to God, to say here's everything I have, I want to do what you want me to do God.

I'm not saying that you will be perfectly "sinless" - if that were possible then there would be no need for Jesus to do what he did and die!  

I'm saying that you will have a lot better chance at accomplishing the things God has for you to do with the time He has given you - the things that when your time down here is up will actually be worth spending the time you were given down here doing.

 

I don't understand the Mormon ideas Ive read like the pre existence, the dietary rules that are necessary for baptism ...which is necessary for salvation ...eternal marriage ... These things do not seem to be supported by the Bible I have read.

Why do you believe in the Bible?

What evidence do you have that it is spiritually correct?

Could it be........

                         ........cognitive bias?? 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Mhcapa1]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:08 AM, mfbukowski said:

OK I will take on the machine gun with SHORT answers to pique your interest to let you know there is light at the end of the tunnel for each one.

But know that each single question depends on understanding an entire world view- kind of like Neoplatonism which you seem familiar with,  So if you ask a question in neoplatonism about why something looks a certain way you have to first understand Forms vs Appearances or accidents- I forget the correct term at the moment but you get the drift.

So these are the shorties to let you know there ARE answers once you understand the full picture- ok?

We interpret that as meaning something like "There is no God but me - in THIS time cycle"

Perhaps in THIS Big Bang if you want to get quasi- scientific.  And this is a somewhat speculative doctrine which some LDS believe and others do not- though yes Joseph had a lot to say about it and this requires a lot of study.  So don't just go off half-cocked with all the garbage you read on the internet- it has to be systematic study. 

That is putting the cart before the horse to see how it all fits together and is part of the "jumping around" LDS see in your questions- you have to learn to count one number at a time and you are going from as it were number 47 to number 113 and back to number 83 and confusing each principle with the other

Yes one step is following the word of wisdom, another is getting baptized.  Those are like learning to roll over as an infant and starting to walk.

But now by asking about exaltation are - in this infant growth analogy- like asking about that infant growing into Einstein and you are now asking about a nuance of Relativity Theory!  Whoa dude, one step at a time!!    We haven't gotten to potty training yet!! 

But to answer, theoretically in the LDS view a spirit can skip principles like the word of wisdom because we believe that even those who have never HEARD of the LDS church can still be exalted because they keep growing AFTER DEATH.  So if you were born in 2357 BCE in China and were a slave to some overlord and died without hearing the gospel - any gospel of any kind- you can still become like God and be exalted.   So again let's take it one step at a time.

OK FIRST principle- one at a time.  Colossians has nothing to do with the WOW- because the wow is a PROMISE we take voluntarily to teach us discipline in our lives.  Colossians is not talking about promises- that you should not keep promises- is it?  No it is not.  So you are confusing issues.  Baptism is a promise you make to God- to do certain things.

Again you are jumping around.  All in due time.

OK we jumped to light speed and a nuance of relativity theory by analogy here-- 

And God is not limited to a planet- He is in charge of everything WE CAN KNOW- universes - plural.

I think Bernard has already at least partially answered this stuff- 

REMEMBER we have revelations no one else has that supplant this old stuff just like the Old Testament fades away with changes in the New Testament!

Paul and the boys were not teaching the full picture because the time was not right - it was not the fullness of times.

So sit back and take it easy and do one at a time and the answers will come.

No you will see that what they taught was kindergarten and now you are a high school freshman.  Perfectly true but.... incomplete.

You need a Phd though to get it all . 

 

"So don't just go off half-cocked with all the garbage you read on the internet- it has to be systematic study." 

I understand.

It started with missionaries teaching about salvation.

I started reading the book of Mormon.
Immediately I noticed what looked like discrepancies in timing of things.
I looked past it.

Then the idea that God gave the Isrealites the choice between life or death - submit to Babylon or you'll die - but not this group of people...
I kept reading anyways.

Then I noticed there were no Levites in the group that left Jerusalem.
But it said they kept every part of the mosaiac law... So I was going ...how?

And asked questions like how can someone who was not a descendent of Aaron be an aaronic priest today?
And if they aren't sacrificing animals at the temple... What are they doing...
Doesn't the Bible say that the aaronic priesthood and animal sacrifices were a shadow of the king priest Jesus and His ultimate sacrifice?
Why do you have aaronic priests?

I never really got a good answer for that.

It just seemed like a big push on get baptized ... Pray and you'll feel... Etc

I was just going wait - there's this Muslim over here who says they prayed and know that Mohammads book is true... There are warped extreme versions of that religion that people believe in so much that they actually do harm to others and believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife...

Plus the Bible doesn't teach to pray to know if somethings true...
It says to investigate.
A great example were the Bereans in Acts.

So I started going ok...
I know dueteronomy 13 and dueteronomy 18, so I started looking at Joseph Smith.

What I found on the internet - 
Groups that was extremely vocal against the mormon church - similar to what you might see with groups that are extremely vocal against other groups like say Jehovas witnesses 

So then I thought ok, how do I filter through all of the bias
I searched out things that were from Joseph Smith himself 

That led to the king follet discourse among other things.

Its basically been about a year since the missionaries first knocked on my door.

I'm not trying to go off half cocked with bad info.

If my info is wrong please tell me and show me a source that's right.

[Mhcapa1]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:08 AM, mfbukowski said:

OK I will take on the machine gun with SHORT answers to pique your interest to let you know there is light at the end of the tunnel for each one.

But know that each single question depends on understanding an entire world view- kind of like Neoplatonism which you seem familiar with,  So if you ask a question in neoplatonism about why something looks a certain way you have to first understand Forms vs Appearances or accidents- I forget the correct term at the moment but you get the drift.

So these are the shorties to let you know there ARE answers once you understand the full picture- ok?

We interpret that as meaning something like "There is no God but me - in THIS time cycle"

Perhaps in THIS Big Bang if you want to get quasi- scientific.  And this is a somewhat speculative doctrine which some LDS believe and others do not- though yes Joseph had a lot to say about it and this requires a lot of study.  So don't just go off half-cocked with all the garbage you read on the internet- it has to be systematic study. 

That is putting the cart before the horse to see how it all fits together and is part of the "jumping around" LDS see in your questions- you have to learn to count one number at a time and you are going from as it were number 47 to number 113 and back to number 83 and confusing each principle with the other

Yes one step is following the word of wisdom, another is getting baptized.  Those are like learning to roll over as an infant and starting to walk.

But now by asking about exaltation are - in this infant growth analogy- like asking about that infant growing into Einstein and you are now asking about a nuance of Relativity Theory!  Whoa dude, one step at a time!!    We haven't gotten to potty training yet!! 

But to answer, theoretically in the LDS view a spirit can skip principles like the word of wisdom because we believe that even those who have never HEARD of the LDS church can still be exalted because they keep growing AFTER DEATH.  So if you were born in 2357 BCE in China and were a slave to some overlord and died without hearing the gospel - any gospel of any kind- you can still become like God and be exalted.   So again let's take it one step at a time.

OK FIRST principle- one at a time.  Colossians has nothing to do with the WOW- because the wow is a PROMISE we take voluntarily to teach us discipline in our lives.  Colossians is not talking about promises- that you should not keep promises- is it?  No it is not.  So you are confusing issues.  Baptism is a promise you make to God- to do certain things.

Again you are jumping around.  All in due time.

OK we jumped to light speed and a nuance of relativity theory by analogy here-- 

And God is not limited to a planet- He is in charge of everything WE CAN KNOW- universes - plural.

I think Bernard has already at least partially answered this stuff- 

REMEMBER we have revelations no one else has that supplant this old stuff just like the Old Testament fades away with changes in the New Testament!

Paul and the boys were not teaching the full picture because the time was not right - it was not the fullness of times.

So sit back and take it easy and do one at a time and the answers will come.

No you will see that what they taught was kindergarten and now you are a high school freshman.  Perfectly true but.... incomplete.

You need a Phd though to get it all . 

 

"I'm not saying the w o w is or isn't good advice... But necessary for baptism, which is necessary for salvation? I have to ask - what about Colossians 2:16, Matthew 15:11, Romans 14, etc?"

 

"OK FIRST principle- one at a time.  Colossians has nothing to do with the WOW- because the wow is a PROMISE we take voluntarily to teach us discipline in our lives."

...hypothetical: 
if I say no - I'll never agree to the word of wisdom.  I'm drinking coffee and wine.
Now, I want to be baptized -

...the LDS church would say no you cannot be baptized right?
Of am I mistaken on that?

"Colossians is not talking about promises- that you should not keep promises- is it?  No it is not."

I mentioned Collossians, Matthew and Romans because they appear to directly contradict the idea that eating or drinking or not eating or drinking or observing or not observing things are as important as some people make them.

The LDS church preventing me from being baptized because I drink something or don't drink something ...
Do you see what I'm saying?
I don't understand how those food or drink can be used to prevent someone from being baptized...

Again - I am not condoning alcoholism or saying coffee is good or bad or tobacco - thats not the point at all... The point is it appears to be being tied to salvation...

...Scratching my head here...

---

"...the Old Testament fades away with changes in the New Testament!"

In a lot of ways I see the old testament as a metaphor to the new testament... As a picture or shadow.
And I think where it says Jesus is the "word [that] became flesh"
That Jesus was the mannah in the wilderness
That Jesus was the rock and water in the wilderness that the isrealites drank in the desert
Jesus is the Passover lamb
...he doesn't do away with the old testament - he fulfills it ... He is the word in the flesh...
 

[Mhcapa1]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

"To offer their life - the time God has given them here on this Earth - up to God, to say here's everything I have, I want to do what you want me to do God."

Amen.  We are taught to consecrate our lives to God and his Will.

The "Mormon" things are what we believe God has told us he wants us to do.  Since we believe God is talking to us today just as he talked in the eras of the Bible, we do not require what is taught from our prophets to be identical to the Bible, but we see it as along similar lines...the dietary restrictions of the Jews set them apart as a people as do the current dietary restrictions for LDS, for example.

But Jesus did away with the dietary restrictions didn't he?

I guess lds don't think that he did?

Why would Paul fight so hard against judaizers who were trying to put dietary restriction on believers in Jesus as the Messiah, and warn them from falling into that...

And then us today with Paul's letters... We're supposed to disregard that because someone else came along after him and said new rules?

How do you tell it's not a false teacher like the ones Paul warned about in his letters?

Please don't tell me it's about feeling something...

Actually... I guess if that is the way lds tell then ya I guess tell me that...

[Mhcapa1]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Why do you believe in the Bible?

What evidence do you have that it is spiritually correct?

Could it be........

                         ........cognitive bias?? 

 

I want to clarify the post I wrote here -

 

Hahahaha

I see what you're saying.

I was raised believing in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

When I got older, I still believed in God, but I was living for myself,  and for other people. 

I wanted and pursued things and goals that seem important in this 120 yrs max down here.  

Eventually things got to the point where I guess I drew the line. 

I understood that the way to make it to the upper levels of what seemed important to me, I would end up having to basically take on an image that wasn't really the truth.  And I'd have to be involved in promoting things that I knew deep down weren't really good (partying, alcohol in excess, sex), and what wasnt really exact truth (an image).  

I know this sounds abstract.

I couldnt do it... something inside just was going off like an alarm... like yeah it might seem like Id get everything I was chasing but it was the wrong thing to do...

I eventuall just stopped and I prayed.  I let go of everything and I gave everything to God and told Him I wanted to do what He wanted me to do.  It wasnt a regular little prayer.  I mean it was like a quasi contract in a way - I gave everything, my reputation, my name, my desires, the goals, my possessions, etc to God.  And I said I want to do what you God want me to do with my life.

A lot of things happened.  

I know the importance of looking up to God instead of just looking horizontally now.  He's this loving God whos just waiting for people to look to Him.

I did the bible I knew back then, which directed decisions I made.

I still battled with human things like greed.

I went to a lot of churches.  I heard a lot of sermons.  I read parts of the bible.  But I had not yet put the bible in chronological order and read it for myself.

Things happened which eventually drove me to question the bible.

I took about a month and a half away from everything, put the Bible in chronological order, and prayerfully read the whole thing.  I was out at a house in a rural area, turned off the TV, radio, basically pushed pause on everything.  I decided that instead of hearing what this guy or that guy says the bible says, I wanted to analyze it, I wanted to see what the whole thing said for myself.

I had ~50 translations of the Bible.

I used a Hebrew and Greek lexicon and dictionary and a concordance.

 

What I read fit with things I experienced after that prayer I said.  I mean... What I read made the things I had experienced make more sense.

Over the next couple years I read it a 2nd time.  

I began to see the archetypes, connections to the feasts, etc.

 

Then the Mormon missionaries showed up at my door.

Ive spent about a year sifting through lds history and teachings

Lds seems to teach things that do not fit with the Bible.

The missionaries don't seem to know what I'm talking about they just tell me that I'll feel something ...

And they say it supports the Bible...

But I'm like Jesus says this Paul says this, Joseph Smith said this other thing...

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Mhcapa1
clarification

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

Haha...  You would think somebody would've written something if he felt like brass.

I think its referring to color not how hard his skin felt where it says in Revelation "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters." 

So was the the same body that Mary and the disciples touched?

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

~2000 years after that time?

...I don't know.

Jesus, God, is immortal. What difference would 2000 or 200,000 years make? Many people saw and touched him after the resurrection. After ascended into heaven, did he hang up his body somewhere?

Edited March 3, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Mhcapa1]

In the end it comes down to love.

Loving God, and loving others.

 

As I've researched over the past year I've become aware of the term "anti Mormon" 

One of my best friends in high schools family was mormon.

One of my first girlfriends was mormon.

I believe that people should have the freedom to believe what they want. 

But I also know how religions have been used in history and even in recent times as a tool to incite people to do certain things.

Thats part of the reason why I think its important to not just listen and automatically trust everything a teacher or even a group says, but to read pray and think... 

When I read of Joseph Smith saying or doing something - and after doing my best to sift through to get unbiased info, pro or con, and what he taught or did appear to contradict the bible the the lds say their teaching supports...  I ask whats up with this?  How can I keep going with this issue here?  

The answers I get are put it on the shelf for later... or we know this is true because we prayed and felt something... or you have to have faith first... or that was mistranslated... its all over the board.

I dont exactly get the mistranslation thing either...  We have Isaiah scrolls that are dated to the 1st century... I mean... if you think its mistranslated couldnt you learn Hebrew and translate it right?

Or by mistranslated do you mean all the stuff that would support lds doctrines was somehow removed from the texts?  

But then I have to ask how do you remove stuff from the bible yet still keep the archetypes and running themes and the overarching story of Jesus that runs through the old testament through the new testament without messing it up?  

.....   and the direct contradictions to things Jesus and Paul said... 

... and ...

 

Idk guys 

I'm lisening, but I'm having trouble reconciling the lds doctrine I've seen and the bible I've read... It seems I have to choose one or the other at this point, they dont seem to be saying all the same things...

 

 

[Mhcapa1]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

So was the the same body that Mary and the disciples touched?

 

hm... I dont know...  They didnt recognize him at first...   

[Mhcapa1]

sorry.  im jumping around again.

lol.  ill chill.

@Bernard - also Mary thought he was the gardner.  The disciples who spent so much time with him did not recognize him on the road to Emmaus either.

[Bernard Gui]

Well, unless Jesus was resurrected, as Paul said, we are barking up the wrong tree. Nothing else matters if that did not happen. Seems like it would be something one would want to know a lot about. 

This is one topic from which Joseph Smith (who saw him in his body) and the Book of  Mormon clear away the confusion and lack of knowledge. You might consider this event in the Book of Mormon. Read the whole chapter....could it have really happened? Is so, what do we learn about Jesus?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/11?lang=eng

Quote

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.

13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.

16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:

17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, Mhcapa1 said:

sorry.  im jumping around again.

lol.  ill chill.

@Bernard - also Mary thought he was the gardner.  The disciples who spent so much time with him did not recognize him on the road to Emmaus either.

No such ambiguity in Matthew’s account. When Mary saw his face and heard his voice, she most certainly did recognize him. Who were the disciples on the road? What does “Their eyes were holden that they should not know Him” mean? And when he walked through walls into the room and ate with his disciples, they didn't recognize him? The body that was on the cross was the same body that was in the garde, on the road, in the room, by the sea. How about today? Same or not the same?

Quote

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

 

[Mhcapa1]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No such ambiguity in Matthew’s account. When Mary saw his face and heard his voice, she most certainly did recognize him. Who were the disciples on the road? What does “Their eyes were holden that they should not know Him” mean? And when he walked through walls into the room and ate with his disciples, they didn't recognize him? The body that was on the cross was the same body that was in the garde, on the road, in the room, by the sea. How about today? Same or not the same?

 

No such ambiguity in Matthew’s account. When Mary saw his face and heard his voice, she most certainly did recognize him. Who were the disciples on the road? What does “Their eyes were holden that they should not know Him” mean? And when he walked through walls into the room and ate with his disciples, they didn't recognize him?

Hm..  good point.  I need to go reread those parts.

 

"The body that was on the cross was the same body that was in the garde, on the road, in the room, by the sea. How about today? Same or not the same?"

Well, his body wasnt in the tomb.... so... same?

 

"How about today? Same or not the same?"

Revelation 1:14-15

And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

¹⁴ His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

¹⁵ And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

 

...Same or not the same?

 

Btw - do the lds believe that the 7 candlesticks in the Menorah represent the 7 churches?

And I'm not sure if I am correct on this, but doesnt the book of Mormon say there were 12 more disciples?  So that would make 24 disciples right?

 

10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me (Ezek. 48) the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, (11Is. 60:1; Ezek. 43:2; Rev. 15:8; 21:23; 22:5) having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12Also she had a great and high wall with (Ezek. 48:31–34) twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: (13Ezek. 48:31–34) three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and (Matt. 16:18; Luke 22:29, 30; Gal. 2:9; Eph. 2:20) on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

What about these other 12 disciples in the book of Mormon?

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/3/2018 at 12:03 AM, Mhcapa1 said:

Revelation 1:14-15

And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

¹⁴ His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

¹⁵ And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

 

...Same or not the same?

Literal descriptive passage or figurative/mystical/poetic? I vote for the latter, just like much of the rest of Revelation. Also, it says “one like unto the Son of Man.” to me that indicates a figurative, not literal description. In either case, that could very well be a description of the same body risen from the tomb in its glorified state. He still has hair, eyes, paps, feet, who is wearing clothing. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Mhcapa1]

Ok.

I know I bounced around ...again... with the questions about the menorah and foundations.

 

But ya, ...what are you getting at though when asking me if his body is the same or not?

 

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, Mhcapa1 said:

And I'm not sure if I am correct on this, but doesnt the book of Mormon say there were 12 more disciples?  So that would make 24 disciples right?

In the BoM they are called disciples, not apostles. Their calling was the same as those in Jerusalem - to establish the Church among their people. For many years it prospered, but in the end it fell away, just like the one I the Old World.

Mormon explained the difference between the two groups of disciples...

Quote

18 Yea, behold, I write unto all the ends of the earth; yea, unto you, twelve tribes of Israel, who shall be judged according to your works by the twelve whom Jesus chose to be his disciples in the land of Jerusalem. [The 12 Apostles in the Bible]

19 And I write also unto the remnant of this people, who shall also be judged by the twelve whom Jesus chose in this land; [The 12 disciples in the Book of Mormon] and they shall be judged by the other twelve whom Jesus chose in the land of Jerusalem.

The 12 in Jerusalem appear to have priority. Three of them, Peter, James, and John, played essential roles in restoring the gospel through Joseph Smith, under the direction of Jesus. The Nephite 12 did not.

[Mhcapa1]

So the book of mormon says that Jesus chose 12 disciples in Israel.

And 12 on this side of the world..

 

The people on that side of the world will be judged by those 12 disciples in Israel.

 

The people on this side of the world will be judged by the 12 on this side of the world.

And the 12 on this side of the world will be judged by the 12 Jesus chose in Isreal?

 

 

Also - I read 3 Nephi 11

Edited March 3, 2018 by Mhcapa1
added text

[Mhcapa1]

On 2/26/2018 at 12:58 AM, mfbukowski said:

LOL a bit self- contradictory.

There is no way to set aside biases and the very notion that we "CAN" set them aside and analyze information without bias is itself a bias and quite naive.

Read my siggy and refute it if you can.

Trust me, you cannot.  You cannot get down to "facts" which are not interpretations.  Many have shown this.

Heck just listen to the nightly "news"

Truth cannot exist independent of a human mind because sentences cannot exist.  Sentences are symbols- not reality and anything which is said in language is a symbol.

Truth is a property of SENTENCES written by biased humans- truth is a human mental state, a psychological state of certainty.

You are psychologically certain that one can "set aside bias"

One cannot.

So now we can say "yes I can" and "no you can't" forever.

Sound like fun? 

 

....So your siggy -
1st part is basically saying
Human thoughts cannot cause something to exist in space and time....
So the world was not created by humans

This is just faulty logic.
By faulty logic I don't mean it is true or not true... I mean the structure - the premise to conclusion falls apart because of assumptions.
 

Part 2-
Basically says:
Truth requires sentences, which require the human mind
So truth cannot exist without the human mind

Does truth require sentences?
Is gravity true?
Does it require a sentence formed by human mind to exist?

Who wrote this stuff?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

....So your siggy -
1st part is basically saying
Human thoughts cannot cause something to exist in space and time....
So the world was not created by humans

This is just faulty logic.
By faulty logic I don't mean it is true or not true... I mean the structure - the premise to conclusion falls apart because of assumptions.
 

Part 2-
Basically says:
Truth requires sentences, which require the human mind
So truth cannot exist without the human mind

Does truth require sentences?
Is gravity true?
Does it require a sentence formed by human mind to exist?

Who wrote this stuff?

Truth is what we say about the world around us, the natural laws, the relationships, etc.  it may even be what God says.

Gravity is not Truth.  It is a force that functions within a pattern we label physical laws.  

What we say about gravity in our sentences may or may not be true, may or may not be Truth.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Calm

[Jeanne]

7 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

So the book of mormon says that Jesus chose 12 disciples in Israel.

And 12 on this side of the world..

 

The people on that side of the world will be judged by those 12 disciples in Israel.

 

The people on this side of the world will be judged by the 12 on this side of the world.

And the 12 on this side of the world will be judged by the 12 Jesus chose in Isreal?

 

 

Also - I read 3 Nephi 11

Are you talking like judgement by dispensations?? I ask because in a weird way...this makes sense in mormonism

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

....So your siggy -
1st part is basically saying
Human thoughts cannot cause something to exist in space and time....
So the world was not created by humans

This is just faulty logic.
By faulty logic I don't mean it is true or not true... I mean the structure - the premise to conclusion falls apart because of assumptions.
 

Part 2-
Basically says:
Truth requires sentences, which require the human mind
So truth cannot exist without the human mind

Does truth require sentences?
Is gravity true?
Does it require a sentence formed by human mind to exist?

Who wrote this stuff?

You have misread it.

It says nothing like that .  I suggest you study a little philosophy. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rorty

 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rorty/

Rorty, himself an atheist,  makes religion rational.  If that does not pique your interest, it doesn't matter who he is or what he says. 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Exiled]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You have misread it.

Truth cannot be out there- cannot exist independently of the human mind- because sentences cannot so exist, or be out there.  The world is out there, but descriptions of the world are not.  Only descriptions of the world can be true or false.  The world on its own- unaided by the describing activities of human beings- cannot."   Richard Rorty- Contingency Irony and Solidarity, P 5.

Can't "true or false" be something independent of human beings?  We may not have the capacity to describe the world outside of our perceptions but does that mean that the "true or false" cannot exist outside of our descriptive abilities?

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

....So your siggy -
1st part is basically saying
Human thoughts cannot cause something to exist in space and time....
So the world was not created by humans

This is just faulty logic.
By faulty logic I don't mean it is true or not true... I mean the structure - the premise to conclusion falls apart because of assumptions.
 

Part 2-
Basically says:
Truth requires sentences, which require the human mind
So truth cannot exist without the human mind

Does truth require sentences?
Is gravity true?
Does it require a sentence formed by human mind to exist?

Who wrote this stuff?

Are you true?

Are chairs true?  No gravity is not true.  Sentences about what we have called "gravity" may or may not be true. The force we call  ""Gravity" may or may not fit the definition of what we call "real" but only sentences can be true or false.

Things are not true, only sentences are true or false. But if this distinction escapes you, let it go and have a good life!