Beside Me there is No God or Anything

[Anakin7]

2 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

@Anakin7
"This happens when you are immersed in a modern rightwing evangelical house/world."

You're right, most people automatically bring biases with them to any new information presented.
Bias isn't necessarily a bad word... More like the "lens" people see things through.
The trick is to recognize your bias, set it aside, and keep it out of the way as you lay out and analyze all the information.

@cdowis

Thank you. 
You're answer led me to relook at those verses.

אל
Is translated as "God" and "god" 43:10, 43:12, and 44:10

אל
Based on context etc can mean:
god, god-like one, mighty one
mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
angels
god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
God, the one true God, Jehovah
mighty things in nature
strength, power

You pointing out "formed" there - that is interesting.

So you're telling me what God was saying there is:
Before me no idols were formed and neither shall there be any idols formed after me
(But as for real Gods, there were many Gods before me and there will be many real Gods after me.)?

.....

Then you said -

John 17 [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Rev 3 [21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rom 8 [17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

This is not polytheism, but we become joint-heirs with Christ == ONE God.

...with this line of questions that I posted ... I get the same response from other lds people when I ask these... They go to the Godhead and... Maybe it's me... I don't understand why they keep trying to explain to me the "one in purpose" idea...

Maybe it keeps going back to the ""one in purpose" thing bc you and they are trying to tell me that "one in purpose" extends to 
the lds teachings of billions of gods before God the father 
and lds teaching on all the future gods (exalted humans) that come after Him?
That in the lds mind "God" is really just a term that encapsolates all of the previous gods, along with God the father, Jesus, the holy spirit, and all the future lds people that would be exalted to be gods themselves?

        Yes analyzing the information [scriptures] through the lens of The Holy Ghost/Spirit and the True Ancient Hebrew Middle Eastern understanding, not a greek neo  platonic mindset. Just my observation. May True Grace be with you and those you love. 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior.

[Bernard Gui]

Deleted

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

If everyone starts as a spirit... Then gets a fleshly body...

Then why did Jesus say:

But a time is coming – and now is here – when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers.  
God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 

John 4:21‭-‬26

 

And

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. ” 

...“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit  gives birth to spirit.
John 3:3‭-‬6

 

?

 

Is Jesus today spirit or flesh?

[Mhcapa1]

....Neoplatonists believed in the pre-existence, immortality of the soul, and that after bodily death the soul takes up a level in the afterlife corresponding with the level at which it lived during its earthly life.

...Paul wrote:
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 

The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 
As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 

And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.  
1 Corinthians 15:45-‬57

The lds people I talk to in person haven't answered either, they just want me to get baptized.

All I'm doing is asking questions and I can't seem to get real answers from any of them...

At some point I start to wonder if I'm just waiting time asking 

.... Maybe I haven't gotten answers from lds people because they don't have a real answer....
Idk...

Maybe somebody on here will answer at some point 

Idk

Maybe if I hadn't put the Bible in chronological order and read it for myself first, then all this pre existence, regression of gods, dietary restriction to get baptized... 12 year old gentiles becoming levite priests... with no animal sacrifices... I just... I mean...
?
 

IDK 

[Mhcapa1]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is Jesus today spirit or flesh?

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.  Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.  
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:15‭-‬17 KJV

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.  But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.  And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?   Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.  And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?  And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.  And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luke 24:36‭-‬43 KJV

Jesus:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:24 KJV

Paul:
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:48‭-‬50 KJV

And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.  His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:   I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 1:13‭-‬18 KJV

 

 

From all of that I gather that Jesus has a perfected body, look like a man, etc

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Mhcapa1 said:

Maybe somebody on here will answer at some point 

You might try asking just one question, reading the answers you get, responding as if you understood what was said to you (you don’t have to agree), respond respectfully, wait for an acknowledgement of mutual understanding, and then move on to another question. Trying to sort through your rambling scattershot posts is tedious, sometimes confusing, and never edifying. If you truly expect to discuss important things and come to an understanding with Mormons (or anyone, for that matter) in a rational, two-way, respectful process, you might reconsider your approach, attitude, and manner of communication. At some point you might start to wonder if you are wasting other people’s time.

[Mhcapa1]

*looks* like a man

Also... I say looks like a man... But read revelation there...

And his body couldn't be the same kind of body as a human being here on Earth bc of those other verses right?

 

Does that fit with lds doctrine?

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, Mhcapa1 said:

From all of that I gather that Jesus has a perfected body, look like a man, etc

 

 

Then you agree with Mormons. If we were to blessedly see Him today, would He have the same body Mary and His disciples saw after His Resurrection?

Edited February 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Mhcapa1]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You might try asking just one question, reading the answers you get, responding as if you understood what was said to you (you don’t have to agree), respond respectfully, wait for an acknowledgement of mutual understanding, and then move on to another question. Trying to sort through your rambling scattershot posts is tedious, sometimes confusing, and never edifying. If you truly expect to discuss important things and come to an understanding with Mormons (or anyone, for that matter) in a rational, two-way, respectful process, you might reconsider your approach, attitude, and manner of communication. At some point you might start to wonder if you are wasting other people’s time.

Understood.

I apologize for the machine gun questions...

I saw your question to me right after I posted that...

 

It gets frustrating because Ive been asking these same questions for months and I get a lot of shifting to other topics or avoidance or someone telling me they know somethings true 

And I'm just like... ?

 

But ya man

Reset.

Ill chill lol

[Mhcapa1]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Then you agree with Mormons. If we were to blessedly see Him today, would He have the same body Mary and His disciples saw after His Resurrection?

If you were to see him today in heaven?

I believe you'd see a figure that looks like a man, with white hair, dressed in white...

[Mhcapa1]

And his voice would sound like the sound of many waters

[mfbukowski]

On 1/23/2016 at 5:03 PM, savedwheat said:

• Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
• Isaiah 44:6 "I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
• Isaiah 44:8 "You are my witnesses. ; Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one"
• If there is no God beside God then there is nothing beside God: He is alone from everlasting.

Glad to know you are Mormon!  Welcome brother!

D&C 93

Quote

 

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

 

Good thing you see that so that you are not under condemnation!

 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

You're right, most people automatically bring biases with them to any new information presented.
Bias isn't necessarily a bad word... More like the "lens" people see things through.
The trick is to recognize your bias, set it aside, and keep it out of the way as you lay out and analyze all the information.

LOL a bit self- contradictory.

There is no way to set aside biases and the very notion that we "CAN" set them aside and analyze information without bias is itself a bias and quite naive.

Read my siggy and refute it if you can.

Trust me, you cannot.  You cannot get down to "facts" which are not interpretations.  Many have shown this.

Heck just listen to the nightly "news"

Quote

 

To say that the world is out there, that it is not our creation, is to say, with common sense, that most things in space and time are the effects of causes which do not include human mental states.  To say that truth is not out there is simply to say that where there are no sentences, there is no truth, that sentences are elements of human languages, and that human languages are human creations.

     Truth cannot be out there- cannot exist independently of the human mind- because sentences cannot so exist, or be out there.  The world is out there, but descriptions of the world are not.  Only descriptions of the world can be true or false.  The world on its own- unaided by the describing activities of human beings- cannot."   Richard Rorty- Contingency Irony and Solidarity, P 5.

 

Truth cannot exist independent of a human mind because sentences cannot exist.  Sentences are symbols- not reality and anything which is said in language is a symbol.

Truth is a property of SENTENCES written by biased humans- truth is a human mental state, a psychological state of certainty.

You are psychologically certain that one can "set aside bias"

One cannot.

So now we can say "yes I can" and "no you can't" forever.

Sound like fun? 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Mhcapa1 said:

 

It gets frustrating because Ive been asking these same questions for months and I get a lot of shifting to other topics or avoidance or someone telling me they know somethings true 

On this board?

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

If you were to see him today in heaven?

I believe you'd see a figure that looks like a man, with white hair, dressed in white...

No, not in heaven, although that would be awesome. In your home or sanctuary or other private sacred place. Would you be seeing the same person in the same form and body and hear the same voice they heard?

Quote

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.  And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

*looks* like a man

Also... I say looks like a man... But read revelation there...

And his body couldn't be the same kind of body as a human being here on Earth bc of those other verses right?

 

Does that fit with lds doctrine?

Not exactly, but we are close. What did his best friends and followers see after He was resurrected? When they touched him, did he feel like brass?

Edited February 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

Understood.

I apologize for the machine gun questions...

I saw your question to me right after I posted that...

 

It gets frustrating because Ive been asking these same questions for months and I get a lot of shifting to other topics or avoidance or someone telling me they know somethings true 

And I'm just like... ?

 

But ya man

Reset.

Ill chill lol

Sorry I think I misjudged you as someone who was not genuinely interested in the gospel because of the machine gun questions requiring scientific evidence- that is what I thought.

But if you are for real I will be glad to help you as much as I can- I was barely skimming your posts.

Yes Jesus has a body LIKE ours consisting of flesh and bone but it is a glorified body- obviously we do not know the details, and yes LDS can give a quasi-scientific understanding which has been revealed.  This body is not confined by the notions of Neoplatonism - it is not "immaterial spirit" it is what we might call "refined matter"!

This is found in Doctrine and Covenants 131

Quote

 

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

 

So yes his body is matter but "more refined" so perhaps it can "slip through the cracks" between atoms - or something like that- total speculation- but at any rate it can get through walls etc

We can answer questions other churches have no way to answer, so let's take them one at a time and maybe I can help.

[mfbukowski]

57 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not exactly, but we are close. What did his best friends and followers see after He was resurrected? When they touched him, did he feel like brass?

LOL I see cut in front of you in line

I kinda think I know where you are going here. 

[Anakin7]

9 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said:

....Neoplatonists believed in the pre-existence, immortality of the soul, and that after bodily death the soul takes up a level in the afterlife corresponding with the level at which it lived during its earthly life.

...Paul wrote:
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 

The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 
As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 

And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.  
1 Corinthians 15:45-‬57

The lds people I talk to in person haven't answered either, they just want me to get baptized.

All I'm doing is asking questions and I can't seem to get real answers from any of them...

At some point I start to wonder if I'm just waiting time asking 

.... Maybe I haven't gotten answers from lds people because they don't have a real answer....
Idk...

Maybe somebody on here will answer at some point 

Idk

Maybe if I hadn't put the Bible in chronological order and read it for myself first, then all this pre existence, regression of gods, dietary restriction to get baptized... 12 year old gentiles becoming levite priests... with no animal sacrifices... I just... I mean...
?
 

IDK 

    Even neo platoists got some things correct on the surface without understanding the the underlying Christian unfiltered teachings, but they did go far beyond True early Hebrew/Israelite/Saint/Christian Doctrine Teaching on the nature of God.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

[mfbukowski]

On 2/24/2018 at 7:13 PM, Mhcapa1 said:

Despite God saying before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, if I somehow find a way to fit the idea that God the Father was once a man on a different planet with a god above Him, and that that god above him was once a man on another planet with a god above him... And back and back and back to innumerable gods out there... And that humans here on this Earth can be exalted to being gods, and forward from there...

If I somehow buy into that idea despite God saying "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me"... Then it gets into how to be exalted to godhood - LDS would say in order to live with God a person has to get baptized - which requires keeping the word of wisdom right?

I'm not saying the w o w is or isn't good advice... But necessary for baptism, which is necessary for salvation? I have to ask - what about Colossians 2:16, Matthew 15:11, Romans 14, etc?

But let's say you get over that hurdle too ....then it gets into you have to be married to go to the highest heaven and become a god of your own planet so that you can have spirit children... Right?

You'd need an eternal wife to have spirit children...   I mean, that seems logical...

But then I'd have to throw out more things Jesus said and Paul said... Like Jesus in Matthew 22:24‭-‬32 Those guys followed the law of God given through Moses in regards to God's commands on marriage, were married on Earth, and Jesus is saying that they will not be married in heaven but will be like the angels of God in heaven.

And Jesus in Matthew 19:12 says some choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (If you don't know what a eunuch is - go take a look at that)

And Paul doesn't say you must be married either - Look at 1 Corinthians 7 He says it's fine either way, married or not married. He even says bc single people are not burdened with concerns that come with marriage they might focus more on serving God.

So why would Jesus and Paul say this stuff and not a single mention of get married so you can live with God in the highest level of heaven and have spirit children etc if exaltation etc is the goal and it was required?

I haven't found an lds person that has been able to give me a reasonable answer to these questions, they just tell me I need to have faith...

But arent they are essentially asking me to place my faith in their teachings instead of placing my faith in things Jesus and Paul said and taught?

Wouldnt I have to disregard some of the things Jesus and Paul taught in order to believe and follow the lds stuff?

 

 

OK I will take on the machine gun with SHORT answers to pique your interest to let you know there is light at the end of the tunnel for each one.

But know that each single question depends on understanding an entire world view- kind of like Neoplatonism which you seem familiar with,  So if you ask a question in neoplatonism about why something looks a certain way you have to first understand Forms vs Appearances or accidents- I forget the correct term at the moment but you get the drift.

So these are the shorties to let you know there ARE answers once you understand the full picture- ok?

Quote

Despite God saying before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, if I somehow find a way to fit the idea that God the Father was once a man on a different planet with a god above Him, and that that god above him was once a man on another planet with a god above him... And back and back and back to innumerable gods out there... And that humans here on this Earth can be exalted to being gods, and forward from there...

We interpret that as meaning something like "There is no God but me - in THIS time cycle"

Perhaps in THIS Big Bang if you want to get quasi- scientific.  And this is a somewhat speculative doctrine which some LDS believe and others do not- though yes Joseph had a lot to say about it and this requires a lot of study.  So don't just go off half-cocked with all the garbage you read on the internet- it has to be systematic study. 

Quote

 

If I somehow buy into that idea despite God saying "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me"... Then it gets into how to be exalted to godhood - LDS would say in order to live with God a person has to get baptized - which requires keeping the word of wisdom right?

 

That is putting the cart before the horse to see how it all fits together and is part of the "jumping around" LDS see in your questions- you have to learn to count one number at a time and you are going from as it were number 47 to number 113 and back to number 83 and confusing each principle with the other

Yes one step is following the word of wisdom, another is getting baptized.  Those are like learning to roll over as an infant and starting to walk.

But now by asking about exaltation are - in this infant growth analogy- like asking about that infant growing into Einstein and you are now asking about a nuance of Relativity Theory!  Whoa dude, one step at a time!!    We haven't gotten to potty training yet!! 

But to answer, theoretically in the LDS view a spirit can skip principles like the word of wisdom because we believe that even those who have never HEARD of the LDS church can still be exalted because they keep growing AFTER DEATH.  So if you were born in 2357 BCE in China and were a slave to some overlord and died without hearing the gospel - any gospel of any kind- you can still become like God and be exalted.   So again let's take it one step at a time.

Quote

 

I'm not saying the w o w is or isn't good advice... But necessary for baptism, which is necessary for salvation? I have to ask - what about Colossians 2:16, Matthew 15:11, Romans 14, etc?

 

OK FIRST principle- one at a time.  Colossians has nothing to do with the WOW- because the wow is a PROMISE we take voluntarily to teach us discipline in our lives.  Colossians is not talking about promises- that you should not keep promises- is it?  No it is not.  So you are confusing issues.  Baptism is a promise you make to God- to do certain things.

Again you are jumping around.  All in due time.

Quote

 

But let's say you get over that hurdle too ....then it gets into you have to be married to go to the highest heaven and become a god of your own planet so that you can have spirit children... Right?

You'd need an eternal wife to have spirit children...   I mean, that seems logical...

 

OK we jumped to light speed and a nuance of relativity theory by analogy here-- 

And God is not limited to a planet- He is in charge of everything WE CAN KNOW- universes - plural.

Quote

 

But then I'd have to throw out more things Jesus said and Paul said... Like Jesus in Matthew 22:24‭-‬32 Those guys followed the law of God given through Moses in regards to God's commands on marriage, were married on Earth, and Jesus is saying that they will not be married in heaven but will be like the angels of God in heaven.

And Jesus in Matthew 19:12 says some choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (If you don't know what a eunuch is - go take a look at that)

And Paul doesn't say you must be married either - Look at 1 Corinthians 7 He says it's fine either way, married or not married. He even says bc single people are not burdened with concerns that come with marriage they might focus more on serving God.

So why would Jesus and Paul say this stuff and not a single mention of get married so you can live with God in the highest level of heaven and have spirit children etc if exaltation etc is the goal and it was required?

 

I think Bernard has already at least partially answered this stuff- 

REMEMBER we have revelations no one else has that supplant this old stuff just like the Old Testament fades away with changes in the New Testament!

Paul and the boys were not teaching the full picture because the time was not right - it was not the fullness of times.

So sit back and take it easy and do one at a time and the answers will come.

Quote

 

I haven't found an lds person that has been able to give me a reasonable answer to these questions, they just tell me I need to have faith...

But arent they are essentially asking me to place my faith in their teachings instead of placing my faith in things Jesus and Paul said and taught?

Wouldnt I have to disregard some of the things Jesus and Paul taught in order to believe and follow the lds stuff?

 

No you will see that what they taught was kindergarten and now you are a high school freshman.  Perfectly true but.... incomplete.

You need a Phd though to get it all . 

 

[Mhcapa1]

On 2/26/2018 at 8:21 AM, Bernard Gui said:

No, not in heaven, although that would be awesome. In your home or sanctuary or other private sacred place. Would you be seeing the same person in the same form and body and hear the same voice they heard?

 

~2000 years after that time?

...I don't know.

 

 

 

[Mhcapa1]

On 2/26/2018 at 8:29 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Not exactly, but we are close. What did his best friends and followers see after He was resurrected? When they touched him, did he feel like brass?

Haha...  You would think somebody would've written something if he felt like brass.

I think its referring to color not how hard his skin felt where it says in Revelation "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters." 

[Mhcapa1]

On 2/26/2018 at 1:50 AM, Calm said:

On this board?

No.  I started asking questions in forums online because that is what was happening offline

[Mhcapa1]

On 2/26/2018 at 9:25 AM, mfbukowski said:

Sorry I think I misjudged you as someone who was not genuinely interested in the gospel because of the machine gun questions requiring scientific evidence- that is what I thought.

But if you are for real I will be glad to help you as much as I can- I was barely skimming your posts.

Yes Jesus has a body LIKE ours consisting of flesh and bone but it is a glorified body- obviously we do not know the details, and yes LDS can give a quasi-scientific understanding which has been revealed.  This body is not confined by the notions of Neoplatonism - it is not "immaterial spirit" it is what we might call "refined matter"!

This is found in Doctrine and Covenants 131

So yes his body is matter but "more refined" so perhaps it can "slip through the cracks" between atoms - or something like that- total speculation- but at any rate it can get through walls etc

We can answer questions other churches have no way to answer, so let's take them one at a time and maybe I can help.

I don't hold it against you.

I know Jesus is the Messiah promised in Isaiah.  I know Jesus lives.  

Jesus as the "Passover lamb" whose blood "covers" to save from the "angel of death" ...

Jesus as the 2nd Adam, the only begotten son of God ....

Being like a branch cut off of the Adam tree and grafted into the Jesus tree or vine ...

Jesus being the king priest prophesied before the Babylonian exile ...

All of that makes sense to me.

I believe that Jesus gave the sacrifice that saves and then sat down at the right hand of God.

I believe that the choice people have is to live for themselves, their desires, their goals etc

Or

To offer their life - the time God has given them here on this Earth - up to God, to say here's everything I have, I want to do what you want me to do God.

I'm not saying that you will be perfectly "sinless" - if that were possible then there would be no need for Jesus to do what he did and die!  

I'm saying that you will have a lot better chance at accomplishing the things God has for you to do with the time He has given you - the things that when your time down here is up will actually be worth spending the time you were given down here doing.

 

I don't understand the Mormon ideas Ive read like the pre existence, the dietary rules that are necessary for baptism ...which is necessary for salvation ...eternal marriage ... These things do not seem to be supported by the Bible I have read.

[Mhcapa1]

On 2/26/2018 at 12:58 AM, mfbukowski said:

LOL a bit self- contradictory.

There is no way to set aside biases and the very notion that we "CAN" set them aside and analyze information without bias is itself a bias and quite naive.

Read my siggy and refute it if you can.

Trust me, you cannot.  You cannot get down to "facts" which are not interpretations.  Many have shown this.

Heck just listen to the nightly "news"

Truth cannot exist independent of a human mind because sentences cannot exist.  Sentences are symbols- not reality and anything which is said in language is a symbol.

Truth is a property of SENTENCES written by biased humans- truth is a human mental state, a psychological state of certainty.

You are psychologically certain that one can "set aside bias"

One cannot.

So now we can say "yes I can" and "no you can't" forever.

Sound like fun? 

 

I was referring to cognitive bias.

...the kind they teach in intel analysis. 

There's a course at George Washington University on it.  I'll look for the textbook.

Def not exactly what you're referring to here!  Lol

I'll have to think some about your comment and question there haha