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Did Provo Fire Dept. Burn Down The Wall of Separation?


provoman

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Provo Fire Department has order what is being referred to as commemorative badges.

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5D5P1zYEUEgopb4tM7eX

 

Provo Fire Chief Gary Jolley said:  "If you went to BYU, or you grew up in Provo, you always spent some time in the Tabernacle at events,". Fox 13 also reports that the badges were designed and order for the Temple opening.  "It is a church-related thing on a government-issued piece of uniform," Jolley acknowledged.

Should public officials wear, as a presumably mandatory part of a uniform, items that appear to promote a particular religious institution.

 

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A related matter, here is what a Federal Court determined about "crosses" placed along Utah highways to honor fallen State Troopers.

""We hold that these memorials have the impermissible effect of conveying to the reasonable observer the message that the state prefers or otherwise endorses a certain religion,"

 

Would a Firefighters badge that has "City Center Temple" on it, convey to a reasonable observer that the Fire Department "prefers or otherwise endorses a certain religion"?

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1 hour ago, provoman said:

A related matter, here is what a Federal Court determined about "crosses" placed along Utah highways to honor fallen State Troopers.

""We hold that these memorials have the impermissible effect of conveying to the reasonable observer the message that the state prefers or otherwise endorses a certain religion,"

Since it is widely known in Utah that the LDS church does not use the cross as a religious symbol, just what was the message that the state was conveying to the "reasonable observer?"  That the state of Utah prefers the non-LDS Christian churches to the LDS church? 

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1 hour ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Since it is widely known in Utah that the LDS church does not use the cross as a religious symbol, just what was the message that the state was conveying to the "reasonable observer?"  That the state of Utah prefers the non-LDS Christian churches to the LDS church? 

Not a topic for this thread. And your question was addressed in rhe Court ruling; with that, you could read the ruling to find the answer.

Edited by provoman
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" commemorative badges "

Plenty of places and things have commemorative events, with various commemorative trinkets. (Badges, patches, plaques, etc) I see no problem celebrating various different cultures with commemoration. I don't think it should be a required uniform piece though either, since there are those of a different belief.

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5 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Since it is widely known in Utah that the LDS church does not use the cross as a religious symbol, just what was the message that the state was conveying to the "reasonable observer?"  That the state of Utah prefers the non-LDS Christian churches to the LDS church? 

No, it was an anti-Muslim, anti-Buddhist, anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu thing.

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It is the most noteworthy fire in Provo history, isn't it?  And the fact that it still only exists because of the efforts of the fire dept should be celebrated, but I agree that politically it can say something else given its current status.

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8 hours ago, Crypto said:

" commemorative badges "

Plenty of places and things have commemorative events, with various commemorative trinkets. (Badges, patches, plaques, etc) I see no problem celebrating various different cultures with commemoration. I don't think it should be a required uniform piece though either, since there are those of a different belief.

 

Statehood, celebrate it with badges. Birthday of a City, celebrate it with badges.

The opening and dedication of a purely religious building that is not open to the public, not something public official should celebrate with their badges.

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On 1/14/2016 at 9:22 AM, provoman said:

 

Provo Fire Department has order what is being referred to as commemorative badges.

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5D5P1zYEUEgopb4tM7eX

 

Provo Fire Chief Gary Jolley said:  "If you went to BYU, or you grew up in Provo, you always spent some time in the Tabernacle at events,". Fox 13 also reports that the badges were designed and order for the Temple opening.  "It is a church-related thing on a government-issued piece of uniform," Jolley acknowledged.

Should public officials wear, as a presumably mandatory part of a uniform, items that appear to promote a particular religious institution.

 

First off it is recognizing a building - not a religion.

Second, you said "presumably mandatory." Is it? Can they continue to wear an old badge commemorating some other building or logo?

Third, liberals need to be disabused of the notion that it is illegal for a government official to mention God. That is not in the constitution. The constitution says that the government shall make no law establishing a religion. The courts have gone way too far in interpreting this clause to mean a complete and total silence on religion. I don't believe that this badge is passing a law establishing any religion for the people to follow or that they must follow which is the intent of the clause. The intent of the clause is to prevent the government from officially requiring people to recognize or follow one religion over another - not to prevent any mention of them - that is ridiculous. What? Government officials can't say he is methodist? or whatever? A President can't say he believes in God? He can't pledge allegiance to the flag under God? Obama was breaking the constitution if he says he is Christian? (even though he is lying with Taqiyya?) Give us a break already from liberalism run amok...please.

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Your third is a misnomer. Liberals say no such thing. The US Constitution doesn't say establishing a religion. It says respecting AN establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... . The Freedoms of of Religion and Speech give Obama and every other citizen the right to claim whatever religion, or non-religion they want. BTW Obama is a Christian. It was conservatives who didn't like Obama's pasture Jeremiah Wright.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

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1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

 It was conservatives who didn't like Obama's pasture Jeremiah Wright.

That's true, some did not.  However, as far as I remember, none of them complained that his choice of religious leaders was in any way a violation of the constitution.  No one said that he shouldn't have the right to attend whatever church he wanted. 

Their complaint was that his his choice of religion revealed the type of person / leader he was.  Very similar to complaints about Mitt Romney, actually.

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