The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Just now, smac97 said: I should clarify that I do not think Elder Oaks was counseling the Saints against gun ownership as a principle, but rather a disproportionate and dangerous form of it. Thanks, -Smac Oh, I agree. I have nothing against people who have a gun for basic self-defense or for hunting or because they like target shooting or even people who have a lot of guns because they like collecting them. It is the people who are getting them for the wrong reasons that worry me.
bluebell Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Just now, Calm said: Not understanding your comment, bluebell. I did not see the last sentence somehow.
Zakuska Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 14 minutes ago, Calm said: All the people I know who do this (which isn't a lot I admit) hunt now and use what they hunt for food and they enjoy hunting a lot as well as the taste of the types of meat they hunt. I don't find this decision to be based on a power crazy fantasy so I would be careful in categorizing all people who do this in one category Yours sound relatively comprehensive. The bartering idea sounds a lot better than storing gold or silver at that will be useless if times get really desparate and would only work if there is some kind of economic stablity, while bullets will be useful as long as there is hunting available (as well as protection though I would hope that community numbers of people working together would be enough to cover that need). Good post Calm. Gun powder also has quite a few other uses as well. Other uses[edit] Besides its use as an explosive, gunpowder has been occasionally employed for other purposes; after the Battle of Aspern-Essling (1809), the surgeon of the Napoleonic Army Larrey, lacking salt, seasoned a horse meat bouillon for the wounded under his care with gunpowder.[118][119] It was also used for sterilization ships when there was no alcohol. Jack Tars (British sailors) used gunpowder to create tattoos when ink wasn't available, by pricking the skin and rubbing the powder into the wound in a method known as traumatic tattooing.[120] Christiaan Huygens experimented with gunpowder in 1673 in an early attempt to build an internal combustion engine, but he did not succeed. Modern attempts to recreate his invention were similarly unsuccessful. Fireworks use gunpowder as lifting and burst charges, although sometimes other more powerful compositions are added to the burst charge to improve performance in small shells or provide a louder report. Most modern firecrackers no longer contain black powder. Beginning in the 1930s, gunpowder or smokeless powder was used in rivet guns, stun guns for animals, cable splicers and other industrial construction tools.[121] The "stud gun" drove nails or screws into solid concrete, a function not possible with hydraulic tools. See Powder-actuated tool. Shotguns have been used to eliminate persistent material rings in operating rotary kilns (such as those for cement, lime, phosphate, etc.) and clinker in operating furnaces, and commercial tools make the method more reliable.[122] Near London in 1853, Captain Shrapnel demonstrated a method for crushing gold-bearing ores by firing them from a cannon into an iron chamber, and "much satisfaction was expressed by all present". He hoped it would be useful on the goldfields of California and Australia. Nothing came of the invention, as continuously-operating crushing machines that achieved more reliable comminution were already coming into use.[123][/quote] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Other_uses
carbon dioxide Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 Though in principle I agree with Elder Oaks, I think his views are based on a premise that our government or our public officials will always do the right thing. I don't have as much trust in the government I guess than Elder Oaks. If a person held all the qualities and works that the government does on a daily basis, why would I trust that person? I may not support getting into one of these private militia groups. I think they are dumb and pointless but I also am far more concerned by the daily actions of our government than ISIS. I am about as likely to be hit by lightning as being hurt by someone from ISIS. The power of the government pen can affect my life more than 100 suicide bombers a year in the US.
Calm Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) Quote If a person held all the qualities and works that the government does on a daily basis Such power in the hands of one person is much more dangerous than such power spread out among a number of them where approval of actions must be granted first. I think if the government gets to the point where concern of this type is needed, church leaders will speak up. Quote I think his views are based on a premise that our government or our public officials will always do the right thing. Nor do I think Elder Oaks is so naive or inexperienced in government law and policy to assume the government always does the right thing. I find that extremely unlikely in fact. Edited January 8, 2016 by Calm
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 I'm just amazed Julie Rowe got so many followers who altered their lives and finances over her story.
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 35 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: Though in principle I agree with Elder Oaks, I think his views are based on a premise that our government or our public officials will always do the right thing. I don't have as much trust in the government I guess than Elder Oaks. If a person held all the qualities and works that the government does on a daily basis, why would I trust that person? I may not support getting into one of these private militia groups. I think they are dumb and pointless but I also am far more concerned by the daily actions of our government than ISIS. I am about as likely to be hit by lightning as being hurt by someone from ISIS. The power of the government pen can affect my life more than 100 suicide bombers a year in the US. Well, if you think you know better then an apostle who gets to be a seer and can see what is best for the future go ahead and run with it.
Zakuska Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I'm just amazed Julie Rowe got so many followers who altered their lives and finances over her story. In the time of Joseph Smith it was the Millerites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millerism Edited January 8, 2016 by Zakuska
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: But if there is a short term local collapse, they might be useful depending on where people live. Plus food and emergency storage is best if it is just a continuation of what one does on a daily basis as much as possible. Storing guns and ammo doesn't mean one isn't going to be using them for anything else but a disaster. It may mean getting ready for next hunting season or having it available for just deciding at the last minute one wants to go out target shooting. I do not think that kind of short-term ammo "stockpiling" is what Elder Oaks was talking about. He is talking more about people like my uncle whose armory could arm a guerilla force with weapons and keep them stocked with ammo for months or years depending on how much shooting you have to do.
Calm Posted January 8, 2016 Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I do not think that kind of short-term ammo "stockpiling" is what Elder Oaks was talking about. Not disagreeing at all with him. Just referring to your post I quoted with the opinion that hunting might be useful in a short term disaster while in a long term with lots of people, I do agree with you that the land would be stripped pretty quickly if that was all they were depending on and likely even if they had other sources as without government control and anyone hunting whenever they wanted, with enough survivors it would be cleared out, especially if people were reacting on the basis of 'I better get all I can before it's gone'. Edited January 8, 2016 by Calm
saemo Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) This thread is like reading an unpublished extension of Cormac McCarthy's "The Road". "My brother at last. The reptilian calculations in those cold and shifting eyes. The gray and rotting teeth. Claggy with human flesh. Who has made of the world a lie every word." Edited January 9, 2016 by saemo
The Nehor Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 1 hour ago, saemo said: This thread is like reading an unpublished extension of Cormac McCarthy's "The Road". "My brother at last. The reptilian calculations in those cold and shifting eyes. The gray and rotting teeth. Claggy with human flesh. Who has made of the world a lie every word." I am not easily freaked out but that book messed with me a bit. I imagine it would be worse if I had a son.
saemo Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: I am not easily freaked out but that book messed with me a bit. I imagine it would be worse if I had a son. Yeah, well, the responses to my question and the off shoot dialogue, freaks me out! A lot of people who are enamored with doom, is all I can say. Edited January 9, 2016 by saemo
Calm Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 How many zombie/end of the world movies are there out there? Our version tend to be a mild view of it. Run of the mill LDS generally think of prepping for themselves as preparing for a job layoff, high bills thatwith some belt tightening can be paid and very shortterm diasters, such as bad weather that cuts power a few days, snow storms. Better tech has led to less of these happening. Took a week for a plow to get to us one winter back in the 60s, snow so deep car couldn'tget out, no school. Dad must have had to walk over to the main streets to get a bus ride to work. When friends' homes were trashed in one of the hurricanes, a friend sent them a good portion of their food storage to live off of till theywere back to normal. My nephew is out on a Marshall Island, a plane delivers food once a month. One month late when they had arrived and the plane they flew out on wouldn't allow them to carry their emergency rations. At least another month before the food plane arrived. People were starving but still sharing what little they had with each other. Life came to a halt as everyone grew to weak to work. Plane finally showed up and the island survives again. How can life progress when survival is pinned to fish, coconut and a plane? This kid came from a wealthy family but always had his head on right and didn't panic. Considers the deprivation a blessing for he and his companion to learn how those they teach live, more reason to try and give them a better life. 1
rodheadlee Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 21 hours ago, The Nehor said: Why accept the promise that God will arm his saints with power in the tribulations to come when you can buy power at the local gun show? Do you have a reference for that? I'd like to take up that promise.
rodheadlee Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 21 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: If a Priesthood holder can raise his hands, and have whole armies fall down dead. Guns and ammo aren't going to protect you nearly as well. Do you have a reference for that?
The Nehor Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 9 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Do you have a reference for that? I'd like to take up that promise. 1 Nephi 14:14
rodheadlee Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 22 minutes ago, The Nehor said: 1 Nephi 14:14 Thanks Nehor.
saemo Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Calm said: How many zombie/end of the world movies are there out there? Our version tend to be a mild view of it. Zombie movies are fantasy. Make believe. A yarn. Of course, I see that in this thread, but I see every single poster viewing fantasy as reality. And going all in for the fantasy. Making up various doomsday scenarios Making sure to position oneself in each fantasy as the "good guy". Does the good guy plot doom and fantasize of a need to kill X number of people, and then prepare for that fantasy? Which is why it reminds me of "The Road". Which takes the doomsday fantasy to its final conclusion. That in such a world there are no good guys, or, everyone is a good guy. As every man figures out for himself how to survive, each viewing the survival of themselves and their own, as the greater good and therefore each is ther own good guy. While every good guy views every one not with them as the bad guy. I thought that is why the book gets to people. We want a clear good guy in our story. We want to be the good guy: But in every doomsday fantasy the "good guy" is a lie. Edited January 9, 2016 by saemo
bluebell Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, saemo said: Zombie movies are fantasy. Make believe. A yarn. Of course, I see that in this thread, but I see every single poster viewing fantasy as reality. And going all in for the fantasy. Making up various doomsday scenarios Making sure to position oneself in each fantasy as the "good guy". Does the good guy plot doom and fantasize of a need to kill X number of people, and then prepare for that fantasy? Which is why it reminds me of "The Road". This is how you interpreted "every single poster" in this this thread? Seriously?
thesometimesaint Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, saemo said: Zombie movies are fantasy. Make believe. A yarn. Of course, I see that in this thread, but I see every single poster viewing fantasy as reality. And going all in for the fantasy. Making up various doomsday scenarios Making sure to position oneself in each fantasy as the "good guy". Does the good guy plot doom and fantasize of a need to kill X number of people, and then prepare for that fantasy? Which is why it reminds me of "The Road". As long as they are content to just plot the doom of the actual zombies. We don't have much to worry about.
saemo Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: This is how you interpreted "every single poster" in this this thread? Seriously? Seriously. Not one poster has said, the doomsday scenarios for which some stockpile guns and ammo are fantasies, but have replied within a framework of the same fantasy. Some may slightly modify the fantasy, to lesser violence, such as you did, with an idea of trade.
carbon dioxide Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 19 hours ago, The Nehor said: Well, if you think you know better then an apostle who gets to be a seer and can see what is best for the future go ahead and run with it. I did not disagree with his view. I just said that he has more faith in the government than I do. For me, I don't worry about ISIS. The government wants me to be afraid of them so they can spend more money and impose more restrictions on the people to "protect" us from the boggie man. The biggest threat to my personal freedom is government than some bearded guy named Mohammad.
carbon dioxide Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 18 hours ago, Calm said: Not disagreeing at all with him. Just referring to your post I quoted with the opinion that hunting might be useful in a short term disaster while in a long term with lots of people, I do agree with you that the land would be stripped pretty quickly if that was all they were depending on and likely even if they had other sources as without government control and anyone hunting whenever they wanted, with enough survivors it would be cleared out, especially if people were reacting on the basis of 'I better get all I can before it's gone'. In a major disaster where social order has collapsed, most people will be hunting each other over animals. The worst place to be is in the cities. The riots and murders would be off the charts. Plus a lot of people would die simply as a result of medicine being disrupted. Think of how many diabetics will die if the insulin supply is disrupted? So the land would not be stripped as the population would be reduced in a significant way.
bluebell Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, saemo said: Seriously. Not one poster has said, the doomsday scenarios for which some stockpile guns and ammo are fantasies, but have replied within a framework of the same fantasy. Some may slightly modify the fantasy, to lesser violence, such as you did, with an idea of trade. That's because they all AREN'T fantasies though. Some of these scenarios have happened at different times in history. (I've read accounts about different European wars in the 14th and 15th centuries that make The Road look optimistic.) Some are happening right now in places like Syria. Leaving out zombies, which no one is serious about, is there some reason you think we are immune to them in our day? That they couldn't happen again like they have before? 2
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