Brigham Young's statement on Sun People

[Sanpitch]

I've read probably in the D&C that Brigham Young stated he thought people probably lived on the Sun, true or not, no matter.  In a discussion of evidence for the BofM this was written, I thought it funny:

"I understand the Polish Government is going to launch a Space ship to land on the sun so we should find out the truth of Brigham's belief once they land. Those of you who don't know anything and think they will burn up know nothing - they are going at night!"

[Jeanne]

I don't see how this is going to work..the sun is shining someplace all time isn't it?  Besides, I thought it was moon people or something.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Jeanne
Adding something

[Tacenda]

Very tall moon people.  

[Sanpitch]

43 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I don't see how this is going to work..the sun is shining someplace all time isn't it?  Besides, I thought it was moon people or something.

You are too serious Jeanne, it's a joke.  Maybe a bad one for polish people.  Moon people were Joseph Smith's idea, Sun people was Brigham's.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Sanpitch

[Jeanne]

12 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

You are too serious Jeanne, it's a joke.  Maybe a bad one for polish people.  Moon people were Joseph Smith's idea, Sun people was Brigham's.

My bad,....!I will try and lighten  up a little,,,

[Bobbieaware]

45 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

I've read probably in the D&C that Brigham Young stated he thought people probably lived on the Sun, true or not, no matter.  In a discussion of evidence for the BofM this was written, I thought it funny:

"I understand the Polish Government is going to launch a Space ship to land on the sun so we should find out the truth of Brigham's belief once they land. Those of you who don't know anything and think they will burn up know nothing - they are going at night!"

According to John"s account in the Book of Revelation, angels (celestial beings) are able to stand in the sun and withstand its tremendous light and heat. 

17 And I saw an angel STANDING IN THE SUN; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God. (Revelation 19)

The prophet Joseph Smith spoke to this same point when he said "God dwells in the midst of everlasting burnings (I.e. very intense light and heat)." And do you not remember that in the 88th section of the Doctrine and Covenants we are taught the Saviour is the source of the sun's light and thermal energy? Unlike our fallen mortal bodies, resurrected celestial bodies are immortal, incorruptible and filled with light so intense that that they shine even brighter than the sun. Therefore why be incredulous that celestial beings are capable of standing on the sun?

[Sevenbak]

I don't think it's in the D&C, but he taught it as a general principle, believing that our sun was similar to celestial bodies in general.  Here's what he actually said.

 

When it [the earth] becomes celestialized, it will be like the sun, and be prepared for the habitation of the saints, and be brought back into the presence of the Father and the Son, it will not then be an opaque body as it now is, but it will be like the stars of the firmament, full of light and glory; it will be a body of light. John compared it, in its celestial state, to a sea of glass.” (In Journal of Discourses,7:163.)

“This earth, when it becomes purified and sanctified, or celestialized, will become like a sea of glass; and a person, by looking into it, can know things past, present, and to come; though none but celestialized beings can enjoy this privilege. They will look into the earth, and the things they desire to know will be exhibited to them, the same as the face is seen by looking into a mirror.” (In Journal of Discourses, 9:87.)

Edited December 19, 2015 by Sevenbak

[Sanpitch]

2 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

According to John"s account in the Book of Revelation, angels (celestial beings) are able to stand in the sun and withstand its tremendous light and heat. 

17 And I saw an angel STANDING IN THE SUN; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God. (Revelation 19)

The prophet Joseph Smith spoke to this same point when he said "God dwells in the midst of everlasting burnings (I.e. very intense light and heat)." And do you not remember that in the 88th section of the Doctrine and Covenants we are taught the Saviour is the source of the sun's light and thermal energy? Unlike our fallen mortal bodies, resurrected celestial bodies are immortal, incorruptible and filled with light so intense that that they shine even brighter than the sun. Therefore why be incredulous that celestial beings are capable of standing on the sun?

I have never been aware of those statements, I'm glad you posted that.  It makes me think that maybe JS and BY had some reasoning behind their statements.

[Bobbieaware]

9 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

I don't think it's in the D&C, but he taught it as a general principle, believing that our sun was similar to celestial bodies in general.  Here's what he actually said.

 

When it [the earth] becomes celestialized, it will be like the sun, and be prepared for the habitation of the saints, and be brought back into the presence of the Father and the Son, it will not then be an opaque body as it now is, but it will be like the stars of the firmament, full of light and glory; it will be a body of light. John compared it, in its celestial state, to a sea of glass.” (In Journal of Discourses,7:163.)

“This earth, when it becomes purified and sanctified, or celestialized, will become like a sea of glass; and a person, by looking into it, can know things past, present, and to come; though none but celestialized beings can enjoy this privilege. They will look into the earth, and the things they desire to know will be exhibited to them, the same as the face is seen by looking into a mirror.” (In Journal of Discourses, 9:87.)

 

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.

 2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto CIRCLING FLAMES OF FIRE;

 3 Also the BLAZING THRONE OF GOD, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. (D&C 137)

[Sevenbak]

That's the principle, and there are others too, but it's not specific to people living in our sun, from the D&C, as stated in the OP.

 

Another one would be the vision from Kirtland, where Christ had eyes as a flaming fire, and hair and countenance above the brightness of the sun. 

[Sanpitch]

I am learning things in this thread that I didn't expect.  My OP should have said the JofD, I always mix them up. But it's interesting to know of those scriptures I have read before but didn't know where they were.

[Bobbieaware]

2 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

That's the principle, and there are others too, but it's not specific to people living in our sun, from the D&C, as stated in the OP.

 

Another one would be the vision from Kirtland, where Christ had eyes as a flaming fire, and hair and countenance above the brightness of the sun. 

The point is that if an angel can stand on the sun and withstand its awesome light and unimaginable heat, then why could not any other celestial being do the same?

[Sevenbak]

Agreed.  I'm not arguing against Brigham's statements, I believe the principle is true, but perhaps not our own sun.  

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Sanpitch said:

You are too serious Jeanne, it's a joke.  Maybe a bad one for polish people.  Moon people were Joseph Smith's idea, Sun people was Brigham's.

Actually they weren't original ideas of Smith or Young. At the time, the idea that people were living on the moon was being propagated by some of the contemporary scientists. In 1976 Patrick Moore, Director of the Lunar Section of the British Astronomical Association, wrote of William Herschel: "As an observer it is possible that he has never been equaled, and between 1781 and his death, in 1822, every honor that the scientific world could bestow came is way. His views about life in the Solar System were, then, rather surprising. He thought it possible that there was a region below the Sun's fiery surface where men might live, and he regarded the existence of life on the Moon as 'an absolute certainty."

 

[Sevenbak]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Actually they weren't original ideas of Smith or Young. At the time, the idea that people were living on the moon was being propagated by some of the contemporary scientists. In 1976 Patrick Moore, Director of the Lunar Section of the British Astronomical Association, wrote of William Herschel: "As an observer it is possible that he has never been equaled, and between 1781 and his death, in 1822, every honor that the scientific world could bestow came is way. His views about life in the Solar System were, then, rather surprising. He thought it possible that there was a region below the Sun's fiery surface where men might live, and he regarded the existence of life on the Moon as 'an absolute certainty."

 

Was JS's statement about the moon after his "translation" of the Book of Abraham that spoke of worlds without end, and inhabitants without end?

[JAHS]

6 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Was JS's statement about the moon after his "translation" of the Book of Abraham that spoke of worlds without end, and inhabitants without end?

Actually there is no direct quote from Joseph Smith having said this; just second and third hand accounts.  It was first first mentioned in 1881 in Oliver B. Huntington's journal, who later wrote an article about the concept for a Church magazine:
"As far back as 1837, I know that he [Joseph Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do -- that they live generally to near the age of a 1,000 years." (Young Woman's Journal (1892) 3: 263.)

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I've read probably in the D&C that Brigham Young stated he thought people probably lived on the Sun, true or not, no matter.  In a discussion of evidence for the BofM this was written, I thought it funny:

"I understand the Polish Government is going to launch a Space ship to land on the sun so we should find out the truth of Brigham's belief once they land. Those of you who don't know anything and think they will burn up know nothing - they are going at night!"

Would you tell that joke about black people?

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

I am learning things in this thread that I didn't expect.  My OP should have said the JofD, I always mix them up. But it's interesting to know of those scriptures I have read before but didn't know where they were.

Ah! Quite the scholar, I see! 

[volgadon]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Would you tell that joke about black people?

The joke used ti be told of Soviet scientists, and also about Moldovans. In fact, what are Polish jokes in English are Moldovan jokes in Russian and Ukrainian. So don't feel too bad.

[strappinglad]

I had to change all my Polish jokes to Orangutan jokes for PC purposes. Then PETA got in touch ....... 

[mfbukowski]

28 minutes ago, volgadon said:

The joke used ti be told of Soviet scientists, and also about Moldovans. In fact, what are Polish jokes in English are Moldovan jokes in Russian and Ukrainian. So don't feel too bad.

No I don't actually get offended. Swedes and Norwegians do the same and on it goes.  I am actually more making fun of our politically correct society where everyone gets offended about everything. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Before we proceed much further along this speculative odyssey, let's consider what's in this FairMormon Answers entry:

 

 

Quote

 

Question: Did Joseph Smith state that the moon was inhabited, and that it's inhabitants were dressed like Quakers?

This is not a quote from Joseph Smith, but rather a late, third-hand account of something that Joseph is supposed to have said

The source for this claim is not Joseph Smith himself; the first mention comes in 1881 in Oliver B. Huntington's journal, who claimed that he had the information from Philo Dibble. So, we have a late, third-hand account of something Joseph is supposed to have said. ^[1] Hyrum Smith ^[2] and Brigham Young ^[3] both expressed their view that the moon was inhabited.

A patriarchal blessing given to Huntington also indicated that "thou shalt have power with God even to translate thyself to Heaven, & preach to the inhabitants of the moon or planets, if it shall be expedient." ^[4]

Huntington later wrote an article about the concept for a Church magazine:

As far back as 1837, I know that he [Joseph Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do -- that they live generally to near the age of a 1,000 years.

He described the men as averaging nearly six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. ^[5]

So, it would seem that the idea of an inhabited moon or other celestial body was not foreign to at least some early LDS members. It is not clear whether the idea originated with Joseph Smith.

In the 1800s, the idea that the moon was inhabited was considered scientific fact by many

However, it should be remembered that this concept was considered 'scientific fact' by many at the time. William Herschel, the discoverer of the planet Uranus, died in 1822. Herschel argued "[w]ho can say that it is not extremely probable, nay beyond doubt, that there must be inhabitants on the Moon of some kind or another?" Furthermore, "he thought it possible that there was a region below the Sun's fiery surface where men might live, and he regarded the existence of life on the Moon as 'an absolute certainty.'" ^[6]

Other scientists announced that they had discovered "a lunar city with a collection of gigantic ramparts extending 23 miles in either direction." ^[7]

The 1835 Great Moon Hoax added to the belief in lunar inhabitants

In addition to these pronouncements from some of the most prominent scientists of the day, a clever hoax in 1835 only added to the belief in lunar inhabitants.

John Herschel, son of the famous William, went to South Africa to study stars visible only in the southern hemisphere. This was the cause of considerable public interest, given Herschel's involvement. (William Herschel was the preeminent astronomer of his generation. He had discovered Uranus, and was also of the view that the moon was inhabited. ^[8]

On 23 August 1835, Richard Locke published the first article in the New York Sun of what purported to be reports from Herschel's observations. Over a total of six installments, Locke claimed that Herschel was reporting lunar flowers, forests, bison, goats, unicorns, bipedal tailless beavers who cooked with fire, and (most provocatively) flying men with wings:

They appeared to be constantly engaged in conversing, with much impassioned gesticulation; and hence it was inferred, that they are rational beings. Others, apparently of a higher order, were discovered afterwards. . . . And finally a magnificent temple for the worship of God, of polished sapphire, in a triangle shape, with a roof of gold. ^[9]

These reports were widely believed and caused a minor sensation. They were carried in the Painsville Telegraph, adjacent to Mormon Kirtland. ^[10] The Sun eventually hinted that the matter was a hoax:

Certain correspondents have been urging us to come out and confess the whole to be a hoax; but this we can by no means do, until we have the testimony of the English or Scotch papers to corroborate such a declaration. ^[11]

Popular belief in lunar inhabitants persisted for decades after the hoax

No more than this was forthcoming, and the Painsville Telegraph made no mention of the possibility of a hoax. Popular belief in lunar inhabitants persisted for decades. Herschel initially found the episode amusing, but he eventually grew frustrated with having to continually explain to the public that the whole matter was a hoax, with which he had nothing to do: he would later refer "the whole affair as 'incoherent ravings'". ^[12]

In a private letter, Hirschel's wife indicated how skillfully the hoax was carried out:

Margaret Herschel was more amused. She called the story 'a very clever peice of imagination,' and wrote appreciately..."The whole description is so well clenched with minute details of workmanship...that the New Yorkists were not to be blamed for actually believing it as they did...." ^[13]

 

I question whether Joseph Smith really did say anything of this sort. The source seems to be a patriarchal blessing. It seems likely to me that Joseph Smith Sr., the Prophet's father, the first patriarch of the Church, is the one to have made the statement. Because the names are identical, it came to be attributed to the Prophet in subsequent hearsay accounts.

I know anti-Mormons have long delighted in making hay out of this, but it's not something I lie awake at nights worrying about.

 

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I am learning things in this thread that I didn't expect.  My OP should have said the JofD, I always mix them up. But it's interesting to know of those scriptures I have read before but didn't know where they were.

I think you ought to beware of saying Doctrine and Covenants when you mean Journal of Discourses. There is quite a difference.

 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[VideoGameJunkie]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Before we proceed much further along this speculative odyssey, let's consider what's in this FairMormon Answers entry:

 

 

I question whether Joseph Smith really did say anything of this sort. The source seems to be a patriarchal blessing. It seems likely to me that Joseph Smith Sr., the Prophet's father, the first patriarch of the Church, is the one to have made the statement. Because the names are identical, it came to be attributed to the Prophet in subsequent hearsay accounts.

I know anti-Mormons have long delighted in making hay out of this, but it's not something I lie awake at nights worrying about.

 

 

 

Isn't everything we hear from Joseph though an account from what he supposedly said since no one alive today was alive back when he actually spoke? We rely on people's accounts of what he said.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Isn't everything we hear from Joseph though an account from what he supposedly said since no one alive today was alive back when he actually spoke? We rely on people's accounts of what he said.

Well, obviously not everything is of equal provenance or credibility. The latest released volume in the Joseph Smith Papers Project contains the journal of the Prophet as kept by his scribes under his direct supervision. Obviously, something like this is far more reliable than a second- or third- or fourth-hand retelling of something somebody supposedly heard somebody else say that Joseph allegedly said.

And I'm not sure you're comprehending me. I'm saying that, under the circumstances, it's not only possible but quite likely that the Prophet Joseph Smith did not say anything about moon men, but rather, it's something that came from a patriarchal blessing given by Joseph Smith Sr., the Prophet's father. Joseph Smith Jr., to my knowledge, did not give patriarchal blessings. That was not his office.

 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Scott Lloyd