Sanpitch Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 The other thread was closed down because of bad reference. In case anyone has a interest in reading the full Proclamation here it is. I haven't read it all yet either. http://losthymnsproject.com/PDF/DC/1845-Proclamation-Twelve.pdf
theplains Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 3 hours ago, Sanpitch said: The other thread was closed down because of bad reference. In case anyone has a interest in reading the full Proclamation here it is. I haven't read it all yet either. http://losthymnsproject.com/PDF/DC/1845-Proclamation-Twelve.pdf One part says, "And we further testify, that the Jews among all nations are hereby commanded, in the name of the Messiah, to prepare, to return to Jerusalem in Palestine; and to rebuild that city and temple unto the Lord." Would you show me where the Lord commands only the Jews to return to Jerusalem and not to all of Israel with all the other tribes? And where did Jesus ever tell the Jews to rebuild the temple? Thanks, Jim
BookofMormonLuvr Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Lost me with all the "We need to civilize them Injuns." talk. Sorry.
Sanpitch Posted December 16, 2015 Author Posted December 16, 2015 1 hour ago, theplains said: One part says, "And we further testify, that the Jews among all nations are hereby commanded, in the name of the Messiah, to prepare, to return to Jerusalem in Palestine; and to rebuild that city and temple unto the Lord." Would you show me where the Lord commands only the Jews to return to Jerusalem and not to all of Israel with all the other tribes? And where did Jesus ever tell the Jews to rebuild the temple? Thanks, Jim Well, I don't know, I just present it. It supposedly is a directive from the Lord's representatives is all I know.
Thinking Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) I guess in 1845 the doctrine of the Godhead was still being developed since the second paragraph begins "The great Eloheim Jehovah..." Edited December 16, 2015 by Thinking Typo
bluebell Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 5 minutes ago, Thinking said: I guess in 1945 the doctrine of the Godhead was still being developed since the second paragraph begins "The great Eloheim Jehovah..." It's from 1845.
hope_for_things Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 8 minutes ago, Thinking said: I guess in 1945 the doctrine of the Godhead was still being developed since the second paragraph begins "The great Eloheim Jehovah..." 1845, but yes, agreed. Early days Elohim and Jehovah were used interchangeably. I don't think we had the two titles distinguished until the early 1900s with Talmage and some of the FP statements on the Godhead. That is also the same timeframe when Lectures on Faith were de-canonized (removed from the D&C), and there were some statements about God in there that seemed to contradict the interpretations of leadership at the time. 1
theplains Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 19 minutes ago, bluebell said: It's from 1845. According to Lectures on Faith, #5, the Holy Spirit was not a personage in the Godhead. See "Decanonizing the Lectures on Faith". I think most, if not all non-LDS churches, were teaching He is a member of the Godhead. Regards, Jim
Thinking Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 1 hour ago, bluebell said: It's from 1845. Thanks. 1
Sanpitch Posted December 17, 2015 Author Posted December 17, 2015 Am I to assume that there are people living on Earth today who are over 173 years old. Third page down, on the left side near the bottom: "Have you not the same interest in it that we have? Is it not sent forth to renovate the world-to enlighten the nations-to cover the earth with light, knowledge, truth, union, peace and love? And thus usher in the great millennium, or sabbath of rest, so long expected and sought for by all good men? We bear testimony that it is. And the fulfillment of our words will establish their truth, to millions yet unborn: while there are those now living upon the earth who will live to see the consummation."
hope_for_things Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 This is an example of why I have a hard time taking any of the written prophesies and proclamations in this document seriously. This thinking isn't unique to this document, Joseph and other leaders made similar statements, and a large % of the early patriarchal blessings given contain language that the receiver would be alive for the second coming of Jesus. Pretty much every generation since the life of Jesus has believed his second coming was imminent. This is an example of why I find the "hastening his work" rhetoric by today's leaders to be disingenuous. According to scripture, they can't know the time or place of his coming, yet leaders are willing to use this as a motivational mechanism in essence to push people into making decisions they wouldn't otherwise make, because they feel the urgency of an impending second coming. I have family members and close friends who's lives are impacted by this rhetoric. I think its unfortunate, and manipulative. 1
Sanpitch Posted December 17, 2015 Author Posted December 17, 2015 As was my ancestor, promised he would be a great person who the righteous drew near to him and the wicked would flee in fear and he would live to see the second coming of Jesus. He died in his forties in the early 1900s still dedicated to the church.
Tacenda Posted December 17, 2015 Posted December 17, 2015 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: This is an example of why I have a hard time taking any of the written prophesies and proclamations in this document seriously. This thinking isn't unique to this document, Joseph and other leaders made similar statements, and a large % of the early patriarchal blessings given contain language that the receiver would be alive for the second coming of Jesus. Pretty much every generation since the life of Jesus has believed his second coming was imminent. This is an example of why I find the "hastening his work" rhetoric by today's leaders to be disingenuous. According to scripture, they can't know the time or place of his coming, yet leaders are willing to use this as a motivational mechanism in essence to push people into making decisions they wouldn't otherwise make, because they feel the urgency of an impending second coming. I have family members and close friends who's lives are impacted by this rhetoric. I think its unfortunate, and manipulative. I know, huh? I believe the rhetoric causes people to do things they wouldn't normally do. Which is shameful, and may be upon the leader's heads for doing so. When LDS believe every word from the PH leaders, then it's as if they aren't capable of making their own God given discernment over their futures. The middleman is a crutch that some use to get out of making their own choices. Thinking their own ideas are possibly not inspired.
rodheadlee Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 On 12/17/2015 at 8:46 AM, hope_for_things said: This is an example of why I have a hard time taking any of the written prophesies and proclamations in this document seriously. This thinking isn't unique to this document, Joseph and other leaders made similar statements, and a large % of the early patriarchal blessings given contain language that the receiver would be alive for the second coming of Jesus. Pretty much every generation since the life of Jesus has believed his second coming was imminent. This is an example of why I find the "hastening his work" rhetoric by today's leaders to be disingenuous. According to scripture, they can't know the time or place of his coming, yet leaders are willing to use this as a motivational mechanism in essence to push people into making decisions they wouldn't otherwise make, because they feel the urgency of an impending second coming. I have family members and close friends who's lives are impacted by this rhetoric. I think its unfortunate, and manipulative. 15 Behold, I come as a athief. Blessed is he that bwatcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
JLHPROF Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 On 12/16/2015 at 0:32 PM, Thinking said: I guess in 1845 the doctrine of the Godhead was still being developed since the second paragraph begins "The great Eloheim Jehovah..." Not at all. Eloheim is a term for all Gods, not just an individual (that's why it's plural). Jehovah IS an Eloheim. The Father is an Eloheim. We are/will be Eloheim. It's a title, an office, not a name. And just as there are many elders and high priests, there are many Eloheim.
rodheadlee Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 On 12/17/2015 at 8:26 AM, Sanpitch said: Am I to assume that there are people living on Earth today who are over 173 years old. Third page down, on the left side near the bottom: "Have you not the same interest in it that we have? Is it not sent forth to renovate the world-to enlighten the nations-to cover the earth with light, knowledge, truth, union, peace and love? And thus usher in the great millennium, or sabbath of rest, so long expected and sought for by all good men? We bear testimony that it is. And the fulfillment of our words will establish their truth, to millions yet unborn: while there are those now living upon the earth who will live to see the consummation." John the Beloved and the 3 Nephites can fulfill that last statement.
hope_for_things Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 On 12/20/2015 at 9:17 AM, JLHPROF said: Not at all. Eloheim is a term for all Gods, not just an individual (that's why it's plural). Jehovah IS an Eloheim. The Father is an Eloheim. We are/will be Eloheim. It's a title, an office, not a name. And just as there are many elders and high priests, there are many Eloheim. Modern Mormon use of this term equates it with a proper name/title for the Father alone, see the 1916 First Presidency statement linked. This is just another example of developing doctrinal concepts that are changing over time. "http://archive.org/stream/improvementera19010unse#page/934/mode/2up. I would agree with you that early Mormon use of the terms was closer to your description.
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