New Book Of Mormon Geography Model

[3DOP]

See, Beomgeog, Rory is the gold standard you'd have to convince, and he remains unconvinced by anyone's theory.  Why should he accept yours?  The same probably applies to Bob Crockett.  In short, what does your theory have that the others don't?  And where do you really find brass or cement in the heartland or north?  Any literate cultures anywhere in that region?  A good population density in that area for the huge wars fought by Jaredites, and then the Nephites-Lamanites at the very same hill?

 

Robert,

 

I have seen a shift over the years to where it really it doesn't matter. If archaeology speaks either direction, it doesn't decide anything. You guys aren't going anywhere if the record somehow showed that the whole Book of Mormon is a story. We non-LDS aren't going to join if archaeology points to Book of Mormon historicity. It seems like the time for talking about horses and swords is behind most of us on both sides.

 

But I should have just let the thread take its course..."for people interested in Book of Mormon geography." My apologies to the thread starter.

 

Rory 

[theplains]

The land desolation is called desolation because of the Jaredite bones. The land desolation was a land of many waters.

Native American in that area did use a mud/cement see angel mound fortifications and you can see the use of cement.

 

Unlikely.  They find the use of cement but miss everything that Ether 10:22-26 talks about. Interestingly

enough, the Nephites only find the bones of the Jaredites but fail to mention any traces of their cities

or spacious buildings.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Bomgeography]

See, Beomgeog, Rory is the gold standard you'd have to convince, and he remains unconvinced by anyone's theory.  Why should he accept yours?  The same probably applies to Bob Crockett.  In short, what does your theory have that the others don't?  And where do you really find brass or cement in the heartland or north?  Any literate cultures anywhere in that region?  A good population density in that area for the huge wars fought by Jaredites, and then the Nephites-Lamanites at the very same hill?

See link for hopewell technology

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert,

 

I have seen a shift over the years to where it really it doesn't matter. If archaeology speaks either direction, it doesn't decide anything. You guys aren't going anywhere if the record somehow showed that the whole Book of Mormon is a story. We non-LDS aren't going to join if archaeology points to Book of Mormon historicity. It seems like the time for talking about horses and swords is behind most of us on both sides.

 

But I should have just let the thread take its course..."for people interested in Book of Mormon geography." My apologies to the thread starter.

 

Rory 

No, Rory, you are to be thanked for giving us a sober appreciation of the huge obstacles to secular acceptance of the Book of Mormon.  There was a time, however, when Homeric Epic was likewise written off as great poetic fantasy.  Yet, as Norman Vance says, "it is now accepted that even if Schliemann and Gladstone got it quite badly wrong in detail, there are probably traces of an actual rather than a purely fictional history and geography behind the Homeric poems."  Vance, in A Companion to the Classical Tradition, 94, ed., C. Kallendorf (Wiley-Blackwell, 2007/2010).  We may be on the cusp of a similar realization that the Book of Mormon is real history, but that may take time to jell.  I always like to measure the credibility of a case against the gold standard of a fair-minded man, such as yourself.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Bomgeography]

Unlikely.  They find the use of cement but miss everything that Ether 10:22-26 talks about. Interestingly

enough, the Nephites only find the bones of the Jaredites but fail to mention any traces of their cities

or spacious buildings.

 

Regards,

Jim

See evidence for hopewell and adena archeological sites and fortresses and also Native American temples

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

[MiserereNobis]

You mean the Etruscans weren't the Jaredites?  Devastating . . .

 

Maybe the Brother of Jared's real name was Aeneas...?

[Bomgeography]

Oops I forgot to add Native American Hebrew like customs and beliefs

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

[Robert F. Smith]

See link for hopewell technology

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

These very old comments (on "brass" for example) are no substitute for more recent scholarly work on Hopewell technology, say in the Smithsonian's Handbook of North American Indians, volume 15.  As I wrote, using that source 20 years ago, 

 

The Hopewell trade network of the Middle Woodland and later periods – an area extending from the Gulf of Mexico to Lakes Superior and Huron, and from the regions of New York to Kansas City, and even into Wyoming?  The Handbook of North American Indians, 15:44, provides that extent of trade in Moroni's day, and goes on to describe the iron, copper, bone, stone, and pottery artifacts involved in that trade (15:46), including embossed copper plate-sheets (15:48), of which at least some of Joseph’s contemporaries were well aware.   The Old Copper industry of the Great Lakes region had been in operation since the 3rd millennium B.C., and included knives, spear points, axes or "spuds," etc. (15:31).  A piece of well-crafted hematite (a plumb-bob?) was even found at the most impressive archaic site in ancient North America, among the nested octagons of Poverty Point, Louisiana (Michael Coe, Atlas of Ancient America [1986], 41).  The highly concentrated wealth of the chiefdoms in the Hopewell Culture was at its peak when Moroni possibly traversed the area (15:49).  Temple mounds were being built and agriculture was being practiced on a large scale.  The following Late Woodland period, ca. 400-1000 A.D., is not at all as culturally impressive (15:52, 54), although the sophisticated Middle Mississippian Cahokia mounds are certainly worthy of notice.

 

Copper, yes, but no brass.  They simply did not have the high Nephite culture.

[Robert F. Smith]

Maybe the Brother of Jared's real name was Aeneas...?

Yes, and since the Aeneid was modeled very much on Homeric Epic, maybe the Jaredites were Mycenean, and ancient heroic Greece the actual locus for the great Book of Mormon geography and story.  

[Bomgeography]

These very old comments (on "brass" for example) are no substitute for more recent scholarly work on Hopewell technology, say in the Smithsonian's Handbook of North American Indians, volume 15.  As I wrote, using that source 20 years ago, 

 

The Hopewell trade network of the Middle Woodland and later periods – an area extending from the Gulf of Mexico to Lakes Superior and Huron, and from the regions of New York to Kansas City, and even into Wyoming?  The Handbook of North American Indians, 15:44, provides that extent of trade in Moroni's day, and goes on to describe the iron, copper, bone, stone, and pottery artifacts involved in that trade (15:46), including embossed copper plate-sheets (15:48), of which at least some of Joseph’s contemporaries were well aware.   The Old Copper industry of the Great Lakes region had been in operation since the 3rd millennium B.C., and included knives, spear points, axes or "spuds," etc. (15:31).  A piece of well-crafted hematite (a plumb-bob?) was even found at the most impressive archaic site in ancient North America, among the nested octagons of Poverty Point, Louisiana (Michael Coe, Atlas of Ancient America [1986], 41).  The highly concentrated wealth of the chiefdoms in the Hopewell Culture was at its peak when Moroni possibly traversed the area (15:49).  Temple mounds were being built and agriculture was being practiced on a large scale.  The following Late Woodland period, ca. 400-1000 A.D., is not at all as culturally impressive (15:52, 54), although the sophisticated Middle Mississippian Cahokia mounds are certainly worthy of notice.

 

Copper, yes, but no brass.  They simply did not have the high Nephite culture.

19th century Smithsonian researchers and settlers did find brass see the breast plate head plate and the metal plate section.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

[PeterPear]

These very old comments (on "brass" for example) are no substitute for more recent scholarly work on Hopewell technology, say in the Smithsonian's Handbook of North American Indians, volume 15.  As I wrote, using that source 20 years ago, 

 

The Hopewell trade network of the Middle Woodland and later periods – an area extending from the Gulf of Mexico to Lakes Superior and Huron, and from the regions of New York to Kansas City, and even into Wyoming?  The Handbook of North American Indians, 15:44, provides that extent of trade in Moroni's day, and goes on to describe the iron, copper, bone, stone, and pottery artifacts involved in that trade (15:46), including embossed copper plate-sheets (15:48), of which at least some of Joseph’s contemporaries were well aware.   The Old Copper industry of the Great Lakes region had been in operation since the 3rd millennium B.C., and included knives, spear points, axes or "spuds," etc. (15:31).  A piece of well-crafted hematite (a plumb-bob?) was even found at the most impressive archaic site in ancient North America, among the nested octagons of Poverty Point, Louisiana (Michael Coe, Atlas of Ancient America [1986], 41).  The highly concentrated wealth of the chiefdoms in the Hopewell Culture was at its peak when Moroni possibly traversed the area (15:49).  Temple mounds were being built and agriculture was being practiced on a large scale.  The following Late Woodland period, ca. 400-1000 A.D., is not at all as culturally impressive (15:52, 54), although the sophisticated Middle Mississippian Cahokia mounds are certainly worthy of notice.

 

Copper, yes, but no brass.  They simply did not have the high Nephite culture.

You wrote this 20 years ago, and you're now complaining of, to quote you earlier here:

"Any literate cultures anywhere in that region? A good population density in that area for the huge wars fought by Jaredites, and then the Nephites-Lamanites at the very same hill?"

Obviously, a huge trade network for the area you described -New York to Wyoming, the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico - was meant for a tiny people, with a lack of literacy. Should they have had imports from and a trade deficit with China before you believe you're own written words?

[PeterPear]

What do you guys think of the new Book of Mormon geography model. I'm proposing there are six seas not four Sea East, East Sea, West Sea, Sea West, North Sea and a South Sea. Also I think the narrow neck and the narrow passage are different geographic features. I think the Land Bountiful is what would be in present day Michigan. See link below.https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-5/

Here is evidence for native american practicing hebrew beliefs and practices

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

Here is evidence for Nephite metalurgy and animals listed in the Book of mormon

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

Here is dna proof for the Book of Mormon

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-2/

Nice. I like.

[Bomgeography]

Nice. I like.

Thanks I spent a long time on this.

There are two other sections. The first section contains the sources. The last section is about the Jaredites.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-6/

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-1/

[Robert F. Smith]

You wrote this 20 years ago, and you're now complaining of, to quote you earlier here:

"Any literate cultures anywhere in that region? A good population density in that area for the huge wars fought by Jaredites, and then the Nephites-Lamanites at the very same hill?"

Obviously, a huge trade network for the area you described -New York to Wyoming, the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico - was meant for a tiny people, with a lack of literacy. Should they have had imports from and a trade deficit with China before you believe you're own written words?

Did you see the question marks at the close of those sentences?  That means, "no," they did not have those characteristics.

The population in the heartland was sparse compared to Mesoamerica, and could never have approximated the Book of Mormon figures.  Hopewell could never have mounted large armies.  That was my whole point.  Various tribes might get together on some special occasion, but even then they were not actually large in number -- including that battle at the Little Bighorn River in 1876, in which only a few hundred soldiers faced 1500 to 2500 Amerind warriors.  This is quite small, and nothing like BofM numbers.

[PeterPear]

The only thing I've seen - at first glance - is that Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are actually the same lake. They are connected and have the same water elevation. Though like us Gentiles, the Nephites may have considered them as different lakes due to its odd shape.

The graphic here helps:

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v1/n6/fig_tab/nclimate1203_F1.html

But you have the correct location: North America.

Again, very nice!

[PeterPear]

Did you see the question marks at the close of those sentences?  That means, "no," they did not have those characteristics.

The population in the heartland was sparse compared to Mesoamerica, and could never have approximated the Book of Mormon figures.  Hopewell could never have mounted large armies.  That was my whole point.  Various tribes might get together on some special occasion, but even then they were not actually large in number -- including that battle at the Little Bighorn River in 1876, in which only a few hundred soldiers faced 1500 to 2500 Amerind warriors.  This is quite small, and nothing like BofM numbers.

Then why would a sparse population waste its limited resources on building thousands of mounds found all over the areas you described? Or on an extensive trade network? Mounds are found as far south as the Gulf Coast to north of Lake Ontario in Canada, from New Jersey to the Dakotas. You contradict the obvious evidence.

And Mesoamerica is not the Land of Promise described in the Book of Mormon. To this day people are leaving it to get to America.

I know of a case worker in Phoenix who helps little children who arrive here illegally to be placed in homes with families.

She cried when helping a four-year old girl who was sent by her family from Guatemala to live with her Aunt. When it was discovered her Aunt had a felony, she had to tell this little girl she couldn't live with her Aunt. The little girl broke down and cried.

This same case worker has seen children as young as two years of age! Many are sexually-abuse by "coyotes" and the cartels. Some have told her their parents were murdered while traveling north together.

You can sit there, Bro Smith, in your comfortable home in Provo, and academically prove to yourself that Mesoamerica is the Land of Promise, but you apparently do not have the slightest idea of the outside of Happey Valley, Utah County. If Mesoamerica with its 500 x 200 Land of Promise is so Promising, then why aren't you and your former F.A.R.M.s buddies living there? It boggles the mind.

But you have a nice evening while counting your blessings.

[Rajah Manchou]

I think the Land Bountiful is what would be in present day Michigan.

James Strang and Rajah Manchou agree

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James_Township,_Michigan

[JAHS]

Oh c'mon. You know that the southeast asia model is a lot more believable.

Japan fits well too.

[Brant Gardner]

What do you guys think of the new Book of Mormon geography model. I'm proposing there are six seas not four Sea East, East Sea, West Sea, Sea West, North Sea and a South Sea. Also I think the narrow neck and the narrow passage are different geographic features. I think the Land Bountiful is what would be in present day Michigan. See link below.

[from the first link]

There are two places that we know for sure were the Book of Mormon took place that would be the Hill Cumorah and Zarahemla found across from Nauvoo (D&C 125:3).

 

I am interested in this statement. It has become very popular recently. I can understand why the Hill Cumorah is purported to be a fixed point. What I don't understand is the location of Zarahemla. That is supposed to be as firm a declaration as Cumorah, but it is based on an unusual reading of English. 

 

DC 125:3 says: "3 Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it." There is nothing here that suggests any connection to history. It is a declaration of future. Compare: "60 And let the name of that house be called Nauvoo House" (Doctrine and Covenants 124:60). The "let the name be" construction simply serves as a declaration of what a name would be, not that it was never the name of anything before. 

 

How has this become associated with the historical location of Zarahemla? How can that verse be read in such a way to make it the declaration of an ancient location?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

What do you guys think of the new Book of Mormon geography model. I'm proposing there are six seas not four Sea East, East Sea, West Sea, Sea West, North Sea and a South Sea. Also I think the narrow neck and the narrow passage are different geographic features. I think the Land Bountiful is what would be in present day Michigan. See link below.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-5/

Here is evidence for native american practicing hebrew beliefs and practices

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

Here is evidence for Nephite metalurgy and animals listed in the Book of mormon

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

Here is dna proof for the Book of Mormon

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-2/

Unfortunately, NA model folks (like me) are few and far between here and you won't get much sympathy. 

[theplains]

See evidence for hopewell and adena archeological sites and fortresses and also Native American temples

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

 

The author assumes the Hopewell Indians are descendants of the Nephites/Lamanites.

Its not really evidence to support the Book of Mormon, just speculation.  

 

I suppose the same author would also speculate that Eskimos are descended from the

Nephites or Lamanites who were dispersed by Christopher Columbus and the Gentiles

(of 1 Nephi 13), or that the Mayans or Incans were descended from Israelite tribes.

 

I am not aware of any evidence of non-Book of Mormon people living in America between

1000 BC to 400 AD who were aware of the existence of Book of Mormon people in America

during that time.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Bomgeography]

The author assumes the Hopewell Indians are descendants of the Nephites/Lamanites.

Its not really evidence to support the Book of Mormon, just speculation.  

 

I suppose the same author would also speculate that Eskimos are descended from the

Nephites or Lamanites who were dispersed by Christopher Columbus and the Gentiles

(of 1 Nephi 13), or that the Mayans or Incans were descended from Israelite tribes.

 

I am not aware of any evidence of non-Book of Mormon people living in America between

1000 BC to 400 AD who were aware of the existence of Book of Mormon people in America

during that time.

 

Regards,

Jim

It's easy to speculate that the hopewell Indians are the Nephites because their technology, timeline, advanced trade system, geographic location and DNA from Isreal matches the Book of Mormon historical record.

It's easy to speculate that the adena are the Jaredites because the end of the adena culture is a close match and adena technology and geographic location is a good match for the historical record of the Book of Mormon.

[Bomgeography]

The author assumes the Hopewell Indians are descendants of the Nephites/Lamanites.

Its not really evidence to support the Book of Mormon, just speculation.  

 

I suppose the same author would also speculate that Eskimos are descended from the

Nephites or Lamanites who were dispersed by Christopher Columbus and the Gentiles

(of 1 Nephi 13), or that the Mayans or Incans were descended from Israelite tribes.

 

I am not aware of any evidence of non-Book of Mormon people living in America between

1000 BC to 400 AD who were aware of the existence of Book of Mormon people in America

during that time.

 

Regards,

Jim

There are six sections not one.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-5/

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-2/

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-1/

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-6/

[Rajah Manchou]

Unfortunately, NA model folks (like me) are few and far between here and you won't get much sympathy. 

As a SE Asia model convert, I can sympathize. 

 

But I'm not so familiar with all the North American models so I need someone to spell out to me how this one is different. What is "new" about it?

[Robert F. Smith]

Then why would a sparse population waste its limited resources on building thousands of mounds found all over the areas you described? Or on an extensive trade network? Mounds are found as far south as the Gulf Coast to north of Lake Ontario in Canada, from New Jersey to the Dakotas. You contradict the obvious evidence.

And Mesoamerica is not the Land of Promise described in the Book of Mormon. To this day people are leaving it to get to America.

I know of a case worker in Phoenix who helps little children who arrive here illegally to be placed in homes with families.

She cried when helping a four-year old girl who was sent by her family from Guatemala to live with her Aunt. When it was discovered her Aunt had a felony, she had to tell this little girl she couldn't live with her Aunt. The little girl broke down and cried.

This same case worker has seen children as young as two years of age! Many are sexually-abuse by "coyotes" and the cartels. Some have told her their parents were murdered while traveling north together.

You can sit there, Bro Smith, in your comfortable home in Provo, and academically prove to yourself that Mesoamerica is the Land of Promise, but you apparently do not have the slightest idea of the outside of Happey Valley, Utah County. If Mesoamerica with its 500 x 200 Land of Promise is so Promising, then why aren't you and your former F.A.R.M.s buddies living there? It boggles the mind.

But you have a nice evening while counting your blessings.

Why are you so fearful of facing the hard issues I raised, and went off on ad hominems instead?  You are a presentist.  You believe that if it is happening to day, it must have been the same way anciently.  False.  

 

You are afraid to follow the ethnographic and archeological reports which tell us what kind of people lived in which areas in ancient times, what their populations were, and what sort of technology they used.  You apparently believe that all the megalithic monuments and mounds worldwide were constructed by huge populations fed by massive agricultural programs.  False.

 

If you bothered to read more widely, you would gain the information which would make it possible for you to understand these peoples a little better, instead of imagining that they all come from Middle Earth in their millions.  It didn't happen.  You also do no service to your friends when you jump to conclusions based on unscholarly books and articles and pass along your false information.  When the blind lead the blind, well, you know what happens to them . . .