New Book Of Mormon Geography Model

[Robert F. Smith]

See now http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66408-hidden-in-the-heartland-tv-series/#entry1209558746 .

[rodheadlee]

Do you have comment about d&c 54:8

8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

Yes ,the border was the Eastern border of the Lamanites. Everything West of the border would have at that time been considered the Wild West.

[rodheadlee]

Does that include the Inuit and Aleut?

I don't know, my studies are very limited. due to time constrictions. I certainly appreciate your knowledge and your willingness to share it.

[Anijen]

Do you have comment about d&c 54:8

8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

Yes my comment is simple; The term "Lamanites" is used for the indigenous people or Native American. This verse could have so many interpretations, perhaps after the final battle down in Central America some/few of the Lamanites migrated north and co-mingled with some of the northern people, thus there decendants could fall under the term Lamanites.

 

Besides if you want to accept this verse as proof of location for the Book of Mormon you also need to accept the temple dedicatory prayers that put them in Central America.

 

 

 

For someone who is "somewhat of an expert on Hopewell culture". I'm sure you know that the Nauvoo area is the Havana Hopewell complex that dates to 200BC-400AD. A timeline that I would say matches the Nephite migration north from the Gulf of Mexico or land of Nephi going north. And it also matches the Book of Mormon timeline perfectly. There is no reason why artifacts would not be found there unless of course the farm presently located on that area destroyed much of the artifacts if any remain at all.

If I was you I would brush up on Hopewell culture and obtain a expertise in that area you might need it in the future. Good luck

 

You do not need to get snarky, I consider myself as an expert on the Hopewell and Adena, I realize the time they existed. Because they existed at the same time as the Nephites does not make them Nephites (weak argument). The Roman Empire was at the same time they must be Nephites, no wait, the Han Empire existed at the same time they must be Nephites. 

Silly Anijen they were in the old world.

Wait the Adena must have been the Jaredites, but that cant be right because the Hopewell and Adena although existed in separate times that match the Book of Mormon, the Hopewell and Adena existed in the same area, oops the Book of Mormon is specific that they lived in different locations from each other. Wait the Book of Mormon says they had a written language hmm nope Hopewell and Adena do not qualify. Wait the Book of Mormon says they had large populations, um nope again the Hopewell and Adena do not qualify.

 

Again there is much that takes the Hopewell out of the setting of the Book of Mormon, but keep on arguing that they lived at the same time even though its true time wise does not make it true location/people wise.

[Bob Crockett]

It seems to me that the Heartland model arguments are slightly more inane than the Mesoamerican theory.

And yes to the Inuit.

[PeterPear]

Joseph Smith never sent missionaries to Mexico or South America. When sending missionaries to the Lamanites it was always to Places east of the Rocky Mountains in North America.

This is an important point. One of the reasons for this was to fulfill the promise made by the Lord to the Nephite prophets to restore the Lamanites to the gospel, which is a theme throughout the Book of Mormon. Thus the earliest missionary efforts by Joseph Smith were to the "Indians."

[PeterPear]

It seems to me that the Heartland model arguments are slightly more inane than the Mesoamerican theory.

And yes to the Inuit.

You may have mentioned it here or on another discussion, but what is your personal opinion of the geographical location?

I know you haven't been in defense of the Mesoamerica theory, nor apparently for the Heartland model.

What area in the Americas are left? Do you have a secret garden?

Edited November 12, 2015 by PeterPear

[Bob Crockett]

I have no personal belief or opinion about Book of Mormon geography except to remark that it appears that Joseph Smith and the Brethren intended a hemispheric model.

See Reynolds & Sjodahl's commentary (you'll need a gospelink account) at http://gospelink.com/library/document/11172?highlight=1.

Paul Cheesman's book at http://gospelink.com/library/document/21012?highlight=1.

Spencer W. Kimball in a 1959 CR: http://gospelink.com/library/document/48745?highlight=2.

B.H. Roberts: "MIGRATIONS TO THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE AND THE NATIONS THAT AROSE FROM THEM" in New Witnesses for Christ at http://gospelink.com/library/document/17171?highlight=1.

Lots more.

To those who denigrate these sources as "mere opinion," I'm willing to consider contrary opinion as expressed in a General Authority's conference sermon or a book.

[PeterPear]

I have no personal belief or opinion about Book of Mormon geography except to remark that it appears that Joseph Smith and the Brethren intended a hemispheric model.See Reynolds & Sjodahl's commentary (you'll need a gospelink account) at http://gospelink.com/library/document/11172?highlight=1. Paul Cheesman's book at http://gospelink.com/library/document/21012?highlight=1. Spencer W. Kimball in a 1959 CR: http://gospelink.com/library/document/48745?highlight=2. B.H. Roberts: "MIGRATIONS TO THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE AND THE NATIONS THAT AROSE FROM THEM" in New Witnesses for Christ at http://gospelink.com/library/document/17171?highlight=1. Lots more.To those who denigrate these sources as "mere opinion," I'm willing to consider contrary opinion as expressed in a General Authority's conference sermon or a book.

Thank you. I appreciate it. (I have some older versions of Gospel Link on CDs, I believe.)

But you must at least have an opinion on the location of the Hill of Cumorah? In Central America? New York? Idaho? Oklahoma?

The latter have narrow necks of land as well as Florida.

[Bob Crockett]

I am willing to share my opinion when somebody here provides me a General Authority's conference sermon or book supporting an LGT theory. I don't believe that Milton R. Hunter's books even take an LGT position, but perhaps he did. A cite to where he did would help. (I recall that somewhere in Ancient or Codex Dr. Sorenson admits that Joseph Smith seemed to pursue a hemispheric model, but that didn't stop Dr. Sorenson from attempting to muster the most thin of evidence from Joseph Smith to prove the contrary.)

Actually, my opinion is not relevant. I merely comment upon the weight of precedent.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[PeterPear]

I am willing to share my opinion when somebody here provides me a General Authority's conference sermon or book supporting an LGT theory. I don't believe that Milton R. Hunter's books even take an LGT position, but perhaps he did. A cite to where he did would help.Actually, my opinion is not relevant. I merely comment upon the weight of precedent.

So you're willing to criticize, but your (critical) opinion is not relevant. [chuckle] Ok. I think I got it. It's a commitment thing. I'm just chuckling. Nothing more. Everyone has a right to their opinion even when they don't have one.

Anyway, no, I don't believe any General Authority's sermon or book supported an LGT theory. I'm no General Authority but I don't support the LGT, it's crazy; the GA would then have to support this nonsense:

"With Lehi’s people we may suppose in the first place that their arduous trek across western Arabia would have stripped them culturally of much of what they knew about calendrical matters at home. Crossing the sea to a different environment would have wiped their cultural slate even cleaner."

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1108&index=21

You see, the LGT theory has to morph a group of faithful Israelites into Mesoamerica-ites. Then once your mind's eye believes these Israelites converted to something similar to the Maya, but not the Maya, you can then accept the LGT.

This is because Lehi's people were morons whose journey across desert and your ocean of choice stripped them of their culture-but only calendar culture, despite the fact the Book of Mormon indicates faithful Nephites kept the Law of Moses for 600 years and even argued and some were corrected over believing it was invalid upon the birth of the Savior. And everyone knows the Law of Moses has nothing to do with calendars. But none of this is taken in account as if the author knows all about the Book of Mormon and his reader is an ignorant fool.

This is the kind of gobbley-goop nonsense that is foisted on LDS members; some could care less, others bob their heads in agreement. No. No knowing GA would support this silliness.

[Bob Crockett]

I don't really have an opinion.

[Bomgeography]

I will be honest that I'm surprised that it's confirmed that Hopewell had metallurgy technology, a matching timeline, woven cloth clothes, fortresses, advanced trade system, breastplates, metal jewelry, and Book of Mormon listed animals. Early settlers found hieroglyphic tablets, ancient iron swords. Native American have temple like ceremonies, a Hebrew calender, and Hebrew words in their vocabulary. Native Americans believed they killed off a strange race of Indians that sailed to North America from another country, they have traditions of keeping metal tablets as records, they have beliefs of a Christ like visit, some tribes said they had white ancestors and a book of scripture, native Americans have symbols that date before Columbus that are consistent with Hebrew symbols and traditions, there are Native American traditions and names that match up with the Book of Mormon, native Americans have the worlds second highest concentration of a rare haplo group, the highest concentration of this haplo group in the world is found in Isreal, the golden plates were buried in New York where the last battles took place next to the churches official Hill Cumorah Visitor center (the churches official hill Cumorah visitor center is not located in Guatemala) and Joseph Smith commanded by God sent missionaries to these Native Americans so the Lamanites could hear the gospel. After all this I'm a little surprised that there are still questions as to who the Lamanites are. If I find artifacts that have Nephi and Lehi written on them I will let you guys know because I think that is what it will take.

Native American ties to Hebrews

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

Technology and animals

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

DNA

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-2/

Jaredites and a Caucasian race of Indian

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-1/

[Bobbieaware]

I will be honest that I'm surprised that it's confirmed that Hopewell had metallurgy technology, a matching timeline, woven cloth clothes, fortresses, advanced trade system, breastplates, metal jewelry, and Book of Mormon listed animals. Early settlers found hieroglyphic tablets, ancient iron swords. Native American have temple like ceremonies, a Hebrew calender, and Hebrew words in their vocabulary. Native Americans believed they killed off a strange race of Indians that sailed to North America from another country, they have traditions of keeping metal tablets as records, they have beliefs of a Christ like visit, some tribes said they had white ancestors and a book of scripture, native Americans have symbols that date before Columbus that are consistent with Hebrew symbols and traditions, there are Native American traditions and names that match up with the Book of Mormon, native Americans have the worlds second highest concentration of a rare haplo group, the highest concentration of this haplo group in the world is found in Isreal, the golden plates were buried in New York where the last battles took place next to the churches official Hill Cumorah Visitor center (the churches official hill Cumorah visitor center is not located in Guatemala) and Joseph Smith commanded by God sent missionaries to these Native Americans so the Lamanites could hear the gospel. After all this I'm a little surprised that there are still questions as to who the Lamanites are. If I find artifacts that have Nephi and Lehi written on them I will let you guys know because I think that is what it will take.

Native American ties to Hebrews

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

Technology and animals

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-3/

DNA

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-2/

Jaredites and a Caucasian race of Indian

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-1/

The problem you"re going to have around here is that many of the the LDS intelligentsia are too deeply invested in a Mesamerican model for the Book of Mormon for these folks to be able to give up on that theory without a great deal of embarrassment and humiliation. So no matter how plausible the Heartland model might be, and no matter how much evidence is amassed in support of the theory, expect it to be summarily discarded out of hand because there's no way the LDS educational elite are going to allow themselves to be perceived as having been wrong. In fact, I honestly believe that if gold plates with writing closely resembling the Anton Transcript were discovered in a burial mound in Ohio that it would not have the slightest impact on their already made up minds.

As for me, I try to keep an open mind.on the subject, as I await the millennial day when the Lord reveals the secret of the matter.

[Anijen]

I will be honest that I'm surprised that it's confirmed that Hopewell had metallurgy technology

This is your first statement in your post, (it is untrue by the way). Untrue, unless you consider cold hammering meteoric copper as "metallurgy technology."

 

 

 

"I will be honest"

 

In psychology it is believed when clients start with this phrase they mean the opposite.  

 

 

"I'm surprised that it's confirmed"

 

CFR on confirmation (by accredited scientist)

 

 

 

I have always been on the side of science when considering topics that our church leaders wont discuss (e.g. the location for the people of the Book of Mormon). Please if you are going to use science for confirmation please use real science and not the pseudo experts who Youtube their spurious  theories.

[cursor]

[wink] The narrow neck, the land Bountiful (northward), and Zarahemla + Nephi were all ... actually part of the land of Pellucidar (Edgar Rice Burroughs). [/wink]

[Calm]

Good to see you again, cursor.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Calm

[ERayR]

Good to see you again, cursor.

 

I forgot to note that but me too.

[Robert F. Smith]

The problem you"re going to have around here is that many of the the LDS intelligentsia are too deeply invested in a Mesamerican model for the Book of Mormon for these folks to be able to give up on that theory without a great deal of embarrassment and humiliation. So no matter how plausible the Heartland model might be, and no matter how much evidence is amassed in support of the theory, expect it to be summarily discarded out of hand because there's no way the LDS educational elite are going to allow themselves to be perceived as having been wrong. In fact, I honestly believe that if gold plates with writing closely resembling the Anton Transcript were discovered in a burial mound in Ohio that it would not have the slightest impact on their already made up minds.

As for me, I try to keep an open mind.on the subject, as I await the millennial day when the Lord reveals the secret of the matter.

CFR Bobbie.  Perhaps you can name even one member of this imaginary "LDS intelligentsia" or "LDS educational elite," who doesn't care at all about evidence.  I don't know of any.  Indeed, I can't think of any plausible evidence which has been amassed in favor of the so-called Heartland Theory.  Perhaps you could enlighten us on that -- give us a short summary of the actual evidence.  I have yet to see any.

[Bob Crockett]

CFR Bobbie.  Perhaps you can name even one member of this imaginary "LDS intelligentsia" or "LDS educational elite," who doesn't care at all about evidence.  I don't know of any.  Indeed, I can't think of any plausible evidence which has been amassed in favor of the so-called Heartland Theory.  Perhaps you could enlighten us on that -- give us a short summary of the actual evidence.  I have yet to see any.

Amazon book sales.

[Brant Gardner]

I will be honest that I'm surprised that it's confirmed that Hopewell had metallurgy technology, 

 

They had hammered copper. That isn't the same technology that produced the plates, which requires a much higher form of metalworking. Metallurgy is the heating of metals to change the properties of the metals. That isn't what the Hopewell did. So yes to metals, no to the type of metallurgy required in the Book of Mormon.

 

a matching timeline, 

 

A similar timeline, not necessarily a matching one. As with the Maya, it depends on how you begin the count--and when. There are various disputes about the timeline, and even the separation of the Adena and the Hopewell. Because the Adena essentially became the Hopewell, one suggestion is that they are the same people at different periods. The problem isn't just the Hopewell, however, it is the relationship between the Adena and the Hopewell. The relative geographies don't fit the Book of Mormon descriptions.

 

Book of Mormon listed animals.

 

Except contemporary horses, elephants, goats, sheep --and pretty much every animal that is listed as anomalous in the Book of Mormon. The Hopewell don't solve the problem of fauna.

 

Early settlers found hieroglyphic tablets, ancient iron swords. 

 

 

This statement requires that we accept evidence that no degreed archaeologist accepts. There are certainly some forged or otherwise questionable early writings, but nothing that hasn't had very serious criticism. I am completely unaware of contemporary iron swords attested in archaeology.

 

Native American have temple like ceremonies, a Hebrew calender, and Hebrew words in their vocabulary.

 

This evidence comes from early theorists who were untrained in the cultures they were studying, and often in the comparisons they were making (such as Elias Boudinot).

They reported connections that were not there. Just because some one claimed it, doesn't mean that it was correct. In many ways, believing everything in the early books about Native Americans is of the same quality as believing everything on the Internet. They said it, but that doesn't make it correct. It wasn't, and modern linguistics and archaeology know better.

 

 

Native Americans believed they killed off a strange race of Indians that sailed to North America from another country

 

Another unsubstantiated tale. 

 

 

, they have traditions of keeping metal tablets as records, they have beliefs of a Christ like visit, some tribes said they had white ancestors and a book of scripture,

 

These legends follows white preachers around. None of them can be substantiated. In the case of Central Mexico, where there is enough data to trace what happened, we can see how and why the tale developed--and that it had nothing to do with Native lore.

 

 second highest concentration of a rare haplo group, the highest concentration of this haplo group in the world is found in Isreal,

 

A misreading of the DNA science, and requires complete renunciation of the associated dating that is part of the reconstruction.

 

 

Native American ties to Hebrews

https://mormonbandwagon.com/dave/tribe-manasseh-4/

 

I took a look at this one. There are several examples that are clearly dependent upon European styles and are not pre-contact. The Micmac examples forget that LeClerc is the one who adapted the symbols to language. All of this material is purported to be examples of Native American contacts, but none of it is accepted according to standards of modern archaeology, history, or linguistics.

 

 

So the basic answer is that you can believe the Hopewell evidence only if you define evidence as something you want to believe that is contradicted by better archaeology and linguistics. Of all of the evidence listed, nothing can survive scrutiny.

[Brant Gardner]

Amazon book sales.

 

I know. I'm jealous. Not enough to jump ship, but jealous still.

[Bomgeography]

This is your first statement in your post, (it is untrue by the way). Untrue, unless you consider cold hammering meteoric copper as "metallurgy technology."

In psychology it is believed when clients start with this phrase they mean the opposite.

CFR on confirmation (by accredited scientist)

I have always been on the side of science when considering topics that our church leaders wont discuss (e.g. the location for the people of the Book of Mormon). Please if you are going to use science for confirmation please use real science and not the pseudo experts who Youtube their spurious theories.

Scientist have confirmed that Hopewell breastplates were made by the use of heat. Besides that they don't know how copper breastplates were made without smelting. Some have speculated that rivet were used to connect copper sheets together but there is no evidence for rivets or multi layered sheets. Scientist have tried to make breastplates using copper sheets and modern day presses and were unable to replicate Hopewell breastplates. The Hopewell Mann site shows lead smelting.

For people who believe that rusted iron swords mentioned in the Book of Mormon were wooden clubs with obsidian flakes imbedded in the wood and horses are tapirs. Forgive me for making the leap of faith that the confirmed use of high heat in the making of breastplates is smelting. Either way Hopewell were excellent metal smiths who made silver and copper jewelry and metal weapons.

28 pound Hopewell copper Celt.

http://scienceviews.com/photo/library/SIA4222.html

Edited November 13, 2015 by Bomgeography

[Bomgeography]

The problem you"re going to have around here is that many of the the LDS intelligentsia are too deeply invested in a Mesamerican model for the Book of Mormon for these folks to be able to give up on that theory without a great deal of embarrassment and humiliation. So no matter how plausible the Heartland model might be, and no matter how much evidence is amassed in support of the theory, expect it to be summarily discarded out of hand because there's no way the LDS educational elite are going to allow themselves to be perceived as having been wrong. In fact, I honestly believe that if gold plates with writing closely resembling the Anton Transcript were discovered in a burial mound in Ohio that it would not have the slightest impact on their already made up minds.

As for me, I try to keep an open mind.on the subject, as I await the millennial day when the Lord reveals the secret of the matter.

I would agree all the Book of Mormon experts at fair and the maxwell institute are all mesoamerica experts. Some have spent the entire life's work and education and a lot of money focused on the mesoamerican model. I would do my best to defend this model. The only thing that would stop me from this is when I see people leaving the church because they believe there is no physical evidence for the Book of Mormon. Edited November 13, 2015 by Bomgeography

[Bomgeography]

They had hammered copper. That isn't the same technology that produced the plates, which requires a much higher form of metalworking. Metallurgy is the heating of metals to change the properties of the metals. That isn't what the Hopewell did. So yes to metals, no to the type of metallurgy required in the Book of Mormon.

A similar timeline, not necessarily a matching one. As with the Maya, it depends on how you begin the count--and when. There are various disputes about the timeline, and even the separation of the Adena and the Hopewell. Because the Adena essentially became the Hopewell, one suggestion is that they are the same people at different periods. The problem isn't just the Hopewell, however, it is the relationship between the Adena and the Hopewell. The relative geographies don't fit the Book of Mormon descriptions.

Except contemporary horses, elephants, goats, sheep --and pretty much every animal that is listed as anomalous in the Book of Mormon. The Hopewell don't solve the problem of fauna.

This statement requires that we accept evidence that no degreed archaeologist accepts. There are certainly some forged or otherwise questionable early writings, but nothing that hasn't had very serious criticism. I am completely unaware of contemporary iron swords attested in archaeology.

This evidence comes from early theorists who were untrained in the cultures they were studying, and often in the comparisons they were making (such as Elias Boudinot).

They reported connections that were not there. Just because some one claimed it, doesn't mean that it was correct. In many ways, believing everything in the early books about Native Americans is of the same quality as believing everything on the Internet. They said it, but that doesn't make it correct. It wasn't, and modern linguistics and archaeology know better.

Another unsubstantiated tale.

These legends follows white preachers around. None of them can be substantiated. In the case of Central Mexico, where there is enough data to trace what happened, we can see how and why the tale developed--and that it had nothing to do with Native lore.

A misreading of the DNA science, and requires complete renunciation of the associated dating that is part of the reconstruction.

I took a look at this one. There are several examples that are clearly dependent upon European styles and are not pre-contact. The Micmac examples forget that LeClerc is the one who adapted the symbols to language. All of this material is purported to be examples of Native American contacts, but none of it is accepted according to standards of modern archaeology, history, or linguistics.

So the basic answer is that you can believe the Hopewell evidence only if you define evidence as something you want to believe that is contradicted by better archaeology and linguistics. Of all of the evidence listed, nothing can survive scrutiny.

I use multiple sources from different centuries to substantiate the claims made. If I only had one source for each claim you would have a good argument. Also some Hebrew examples date to the conquistadors before any missionaries arrive in North America.

There are precolumbian Native American artifacts that look the same to the Jewish Hamas symbol.There are pre columbian depictions of flying serpents as explained by Nephi in the Old Testament history of the children of Isreal. The Native American used temples in similar manner as the Hebrew. The first instance of this also dates to the conquistadors. Such as the eternal flame in the Hebrew temple.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Bomgeography