Hey Let's Talk Church Direction

[stemelbow]

I've said some of this stuff before and I'll say it again.

I fear we are victims of the direction of culture and our environment. That it, by and large, directs what we teach and talk about. Such direction isn't in itself bad, of course, at least I wouldn't say so. But it can influence us to focus on things we need not.

I want peace, harmony, love, joy and charity to persist in all things. I'm tired of exclusion, dogma, platitude-worship, pride, enmity-creating, Pharisee-following, and rameumptum-designing.

Too often Church is too many things and we have forgotten our precious directives "peace, harmony, love, joy and charity", even if we give 12% of our moneys away. I feel like we're too eager to tell people we're the best and forget to give to people.

I realize if I find myself outside the Church someday it'll be because I can't get on board with what we're doing far more than what has been done by past LDS. Don't get me wrong, I'm on board with most of it. But, that doesn't keep me thinking we can do more if we stop trying to be too much.

Someone's going to read this and say, "what does this even mean? What is he saying?" Yeah, I hear ya. I guess I worry that I'm pulled away from what is important because of Church instead of the opposite. I may be alone in this. I'd love to see the Church being more to more people, instead of being a haven of pride for the few (which too often it feels like to me).

Alright, I'm bad for my thoughts. But I'll be happy to accept some help on this line of reasoning, if you got it.

[Mars]

Yeah, I hear ya. I guess I worry that I'm pulled away from what is important because of Church instead of the opposite. I may be alone in this. I'd love to see the Church being more to more people, instead of being a haven of pride for the few (which too often it feels like to me).

 

i don't share this experience.  at all.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I realize if I find myself outside the Church someday it'll be because I can't get on board with what we're doing far more than what has been done by past LDS

I agree that it's the NOW that matters most. Regardless of how problematic the history may be to me, as long as I see and feel the good in the church I am happy to be here. But when the church hurts people now and offsets the good it is doing, I may choose a different approach.

 

For example, in the past 6 months I've had 2 daughters serving as presidents of their church classes. They are both very diligent and kind. In both cases they have been maligned, chastised, and embarrassed in classes by their adult leaders when they've expressed opinions that don't reflect the leader's opinions. The most recent was 1 week ago when my 13 year old daughter had her mutual art project held up in class and mocked by the YW Counselor. The teacher told her in front of class that she was disappointed in my daughter and then marched her straight down to the bishops office to have her corrected. The bishop also told my daughter that she needs to work on being a good example.

 

So what did my daughter do? She created a meme about keeping the word of wisdom that referenced Red Solo Cups. That's it. She brought the meme home. I've seen it. I've spoken to the bishop about it and he admitted he didn't even understand the reference but he called her to repentence anyway. Apparently that reference was inappropriate enough that my daughter needed to be humiliated and made to cry in class and in front of the bishop. She came home crying and could barely even tell us about it.

 

I can forgive a lot of questionable history but if the church becomes more of a bad experience for my kids, than a good one, then the choice will be easy.

[Calm]

"I fear we are victims of the direction of culture and our environment"

Perhaps a good first step would be to stop seeing oneself and others as victims and assume instead a more dynamic, active role.

We can't change our lives if we assume we have no control over it, things are done to us instead of us being active participants in them.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Calm

[Stargazer]

i don't share this experience.  at all.

 

I'm with Mars on that one.

[CV75]

 But I'll be happy to accept some help on this line of reasoning, if you got it.

I would focus on charity (trying, asking, practicing, studying, pondering, praying, etc.) for at least a couple of weeks (nothing to lose) and then revisit the issue. I find charity to be the opposite of generalizing, judging and condemning, and incredibly energizing and example-setting.

 

I can forgive a lot of questionable history but if the church becomes more of a bad experience for my kids, than a good one, then the choice will be easy.

I would teach your children by example and precept to build resilience in them and in the Lord. Nothing is more important than retaining and honoring our covenants with the Lord, and this is the very least we get from Church participation.  As difficult as it is to see our children face such difficulties from members and leaders, as a parent I would ask, “what can I learn from this?” and then counsel with the offenders as guided.

[stemelbow]

I agree that it's the NOW that matters most. Regardless of how problematic the history may be to me, as long as I see and feel the good in the church I am happy to be here. But when the church hurts people now and offsets the good it is doing, I may choose a different approach.

 

For example, in the past 6 months I've had 2 daughters serving as presidents of their church classes. They are both very diligent and kind. In both cases they have been maligned, chastised, and embarrassed in classes by their adult leaders when they've expressed opinions that don't reflect the leader's opinions. The most recent was 1 week ago when my 13 year old daughter had her mutual art project held up in class and mocked by the YW Counselor. The teacher told her in front of class that she was disappointed in my daughter and then marched her straight down to the bishops office to have her corrected. The bishop also told my daughter that she needs to work on being a good example.

 

So what did my daughter do? She created a meme about keeping the word of wisdom that referenced Red Solo Cups. That's it. She brought the meme home. I've seen it. I've spoken to the bishop about it and he admitted he didn't even understand the reference but he called her to repentence anyway. Apparently that reference was inappropriate enough that my daughter needed to be humiliated and made to cry in class and in front of the bishop. She came home crying and could barely even tell us about it.

 

I can forgive a lot of questionable history but if the church becomes more of a bad experience for my kids, than a good one, then the choice will be easy.

Yeah that kind of stuff is ridiculous.

I've shared the story of my son sitting in the meeting about SSM here before. This reminded me of that.

Edited October 15, 2015 by stemelbow

[Mystery Meat]

I've said some of this stuff before and I'll say it again.

I fear we are victims of the direction of culture and our environment. 

 

This is true. The question is, what culture are we, as members, and the Church influenced by: the Lord's culture or the World's culture.

 

I have my answer.

[stemelbow]

"I fear we are victims of the direction of culture and our environment"

Perhaps a good first step would be to stop seeing onself and others as victims and assume instead a more dynamic, active role.

We can't change our lives if we assume we have no control over it, things are done to us instead of us being active participants in them.

Sure victims wasn't a good word choice. But the idea seems true--we are heavily influenced by our tradition, culture and environment. We just are. And sometimes that influence can be a problem without us realizing it.

[stemelbow]

i don't share this experience.  at all.

Cool. I often do feel alone in my perspective, not surprised many see it differently.

[ksfisher]

I agree that it's the NOW that matters most. Regardless of how problematic the history may be to me, as long as I see and feel the good in the church I am happy to be here. But when the church hurts people now and offsets the good it is doing, I may choose a different approach.

 

For example, in the past 6 months I've had 2 daughters serving as presidents of their church classes. They are both very diligent and kind. In both cases they have been maligned, chastised, and embarrassed in classes by their adult leaders when they've expressed opinions that don't reflect the leader's opinions. The most recent was 1 week ago when my 13 year old daughter had her mutual art project held up in class and mocked by the YW Counselor. The teacher told her in front of class that she was disappointed in my daughter and then marched her straight down to the bishops office to have her corrected. The bishop also told my daughter that she needs to work on being a good example.

 

So what did my daughter do? She created a meme about keeping the word of wisdom that referenced Red Solo Cups. That's it. She brought the meme home. I've seen it. I've spoken to the bishop about it and he admitted he didn't even understand the reference but he called her to repentence anyway. Apparently that reference was inappropriate enough that my daughter needed to be humiliated and made to cry in class and in front of the bishop. She came home crying and could barely even tell us about it.

 

I can forgive a lot of questionable history but if the church becomes more of a bad experience for my kids, than a good one, then the choice will be easy.

 

I can relate.  Some of the youth leaders our children have had have been just terrible.  That being said, regardless of how bad a teacher, organization president, or even a bishop is, we would never consider cutting ourselves off from the Savior's church because of the mistakes of some of the people in the church. 

[stemelbow]

This is true. The question is, what culture are we, as members, and the Church influenced by: the Lord's culture or the World's culture.

 

I have my answer.

of course they aren't necessarily opposed. That's why we often embrace and accept the world's culture. I'm less and less fond of this dichotomy, and more and more questioning if we've built our culture as we've picked our preferences from the larger world. I'm curious if in doing so we haven't erred in our choosing. I wonder if we haven't been open enough to accept more and if we haven't let in too much of what is problematic.

[stemelbow]

I can relate.  Some of the youth leaders our children have had have been just terrible.  That being said, regardless of how bad a teacher, organization president, or even a bishop is, we would never consider cutting ourselves off from the Savior's church because of the mistakes of some of the people in the church.

The people are the Church and if the people embrace, more and more, practices, beliefs, and attitudes that are problematic, then it may someday lose it's savor, and be too far from the Savior.

[ALarson]

I agree that it's the NOW that matters most. Regardless of how problematic the history may be to me, as long as I see and feel the good in the church I am happy to be here. But when the church hurts people now and offsets the good it is doing, I may choose a different approach.

 

For example, in the past 6 months I've had 2 daughters serving as presidents of their church classes. They are both very diligent and kind. In both cases they have been maligned, chastised, and embarrassed in classes by their adult leaders when they've expressed opinions that don't reflect the leader's opinions. The most recent was 1 week ago when my 13 year old daughter had her mutual art project held up in class and mocked by the YW Counselor. The teacher told her in front of class that she was disappointed in my daughter and then marched her straight down to the bishops office to have her corrected. The bishop also told my daughter that she needs to work on being a good example.

 

So what did my daughter do? She created a meme about keeping the word of wisdom that referenced Red Solo Cups. That's it. She brought the meme home. I've seen it. I've spoken to the bishop about it and he admitted he didn't even understand the reference but he called her to repentence anyway. Apparently that reference was inappropriate enough that my daughter needed to be humiliated and made to cry in class and in front of the bishop. She came home crying and could barely even tell us about it.

 

I can forgive a lot of questionable history but if the church becomes more of a bad experience for my kids, than a good one, then the choice will be easy.

That's rough.  What's the deal with "Red Solo Cups"?  I don't understand how those could provoke that reaction from you daughter's leader or the need to meet with the Bishop. Has the leader explained her actions?  I think I'd start there.

 

It's been stated that there's a lesson to be learned here for your daughter.  What could that be?  Stand up to her leader when she's wrong?  Maybe open communications and discuss it with her leader?  I don't know.  I have 4 kids and they are all very different personalities.  A couple could do this and a couple wouldn't want to bother. 

 

It's also bizarre that the Bishop backed a leader who was in the wrong.  He didn't know what your daughter did wrong but called her to repentance anyway?  Wow.

 

I would talk to the leader and ask her to explain.

Edited October 15, 2015 by ALarson

[VideoGameJunkie]

One time I was sitting at the stand to bless the sacrament. I was sitting up there for awhile. I was wearing a white shirt with some tiny blue stripes and the Bishop of the ward went over to me in front of the congregation and asked me to sit down because I wasn't wearing a pure white shirt. I never felt more humiliated in church than that moment. Everyone saw me sit down.

[Mystery Meat]

of course they aren't necessarily opposed. That's why we often embrace and accept the world's culture. I'm less and less fond of this dichotomy, and more and more questioning if we've built our culture as we've picked our preferences from the larger world. I'm curious if in doing so we haven't erred in our choosing. I wonder if we haven't been open enough to accept more and if we haven't let in too much of what is problematic.

 

They aren't necessarily opposed, you are right. But they are more and more so. The world is not getting more in sync with the Lord. It is losing touch. You may or may not agree with scriptural prophecy or modern day prophets, but that is what is happening according to them. It is much more likely now that the world's culture is in direct opposition to the Lord's than it was even ten years ago.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Mystery Meat

[HappyJackWagon]

That's rough.  What's the deal with "Red Solo Cups"?  I don't understand how those could provoke that reaction from you daughter's leader or the need to meet with the Bishop. Has the leader explained her actions?  I think I'd start there.

Apparently Red Solo Cups are a symbol of partying and drinking. I only know because there's a country song about it.

The teacher thought it was too provocative.

 

It is no surprise this particular leader behaves inappropriately. She has no social skill, has never had children and has been open in the past about not liking children. We were pretty surprised when she was called and actually accepted. We sustained her with trepidation just 1 month ago. The incident with my daughter isn't the first problem she's had in her 1 month of experience.

[ksfisher]

The people are the Church and if the people embrace, more and more, practices, beliefs, and attitudes that are problematic, then it may someday lose it's savor, and be too far from the Savior.

 

I would say that the Church is the Savior's  and that we as members of His church have a covenant obligation to follow his example in how we treat others, both in and out of the church.  We often perform very poorly at this, but that provides us with opportunities to identify problems and forgive.  The church's council system is designed to facilitate this inside the church, and the family is where we learn to practice improvement and forgiveness in the home. 

[HappyJackWagon]

One time I was sitting at the stand to bless the sacrament. I was sitting up there for awhile. I was wearing a white shirt with some tiny blue stripes and the Bishop of the ward went over to me in front of the congregation and asked me to sit down because I wasn't wearing a pure white shirt. I never felt more humiliated in church than that moment. Everyone saw me sit down.

The ward had no clue it was about your shirt. They probably assumed you were a heinous sinner. So, no worries

[Calm]

Sure victims wasn't a good word choice. But the idea seems true--we are heavily influenced by our tradition, culture and environment. We just are. And sometimes that influence can be a problem without us realizing it.

When my daughter was diagnosed with diabetes, her doctors and therapists made a big (huge actually and I've seen it repeated by many spokespeople who talk about living with diabetes) issue about her and the rest of the family not using certain language...she was to say and think as much as she could not "I am a diabetic" but "I am someone who deals with diabetes". We were to do everything possible to help her avoid feeling that diabetes was now her identity rather than just one of the many things she would be dealing with in life.

Language and how we choose to use it affects our emotions, influences our responses, etc. It reveals how and what we think about ourselves. Using "victims" instead of saying "we are heavily influenced" is more than just a poor word choice. Being a victim is a significantly different idea to being influenced, even heavily. The words people choose with the nuances attached to them will reveal our world views and impact how we respond to them, what we see as our options, etc.

[HappyJackWagon]

I would say that the Church is the Savior's  and that we as members of His church have a covenant obligation to follow his example in how we treat others, both in and out of the church.  We often perform very poorly at this, but that provides us with opportunities to identify problems and forgive.  The church's council system is designed to facilitate this inside the church, and the family is where we learn to practice improvement and forgiveness in the home. 

This is all true, yet it would be foolish to continually put yourself or loved ones in a harmful situation.

[ALarson]

This is all true, yet it would be foolish to continually put yourself or loved ones in a harmful situation.

Agreed.  If this were a teacher at school, I would imagine everyone would be telling you to pull your daughter out of that class immediately.  But because it happened at church, it seems there's a different standard.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Happy jack wagon ya they probably thought I was a sinner and didn't even notice my shirt. What a wonderful feeling that was.....not.

[Calm]

Agreed. If this were a teacher at school, I would imagine everyone would be telling you to pull your daughter out of that class immediately. But because it happened at church, it seems there's a different standard.

If a teacher made my kid or another kid cry or was abusive in any way, I would at the least be attending class. Did it for a year for my son's first grade teacher...and she was on her best behaviour even though she gave me tons of stuff to do elsewhere and refused to allow me to help with the kids. The other parents who knew what was going on plus the principal who said she couldn't fire her because of the union were very grateful. It makes no differnce to me where it happens.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Calm

[ALarson]

If a teacher made my kid or another kid cry or was abusive in any way, I would at the least be attending class. Did it for a year for my son's first grade teacher...and she was on her best behaviour even though she gave me tons of stuff to do elsewhere and refused to allow me to help with the kids. The other parents who knew what was going on plus the principal who said she couldn't fire her because of the union were very grateful. It makes no differnce to me where it happens.

Good for you.  My wife did the same thing with one of our daughters in a similar situation.  

 

How would you handle the situation that HJW described with his daughter, her leader and the Bishop?  

 

I know that my first reaction would be to try to clear the air with the teacher and open up communication with her.  I'd like to know why she reacted how she did and why she felt it was ok to embarrass my daughter.  Then I'd want to make sure it didn't happen again (hopefully).  I wouldn't want my daughter to feel like she couldn't go back to YW.

Edited October 15, 2015 by ALarson