Hey Let's Talk Church Direction

[Gray]

Especially when the Church does not accept everyone to be a member. To be a member you have to be willing to covenant with God to follow Him. If you won't do that, you aren't member. Not because you aren't welcome, but because you don't accept the invitation

 

The standards for membership are far less stringent than the standards for enrollment. 

[filovirus]

What to you is the fullness of the gospel?

 

"Sometimes, the truth may just seem too straightforward, too plain, and too simple for us to fully appreciate its great value. So we set aside what we have experienced and know to be true in pursuit of more mysterious or complicated information. Hopefully we will learn that when we chase after shadows, we are pursuing matters that have little substance and value"... "This beautiful gospel is so simple a child can grasp it." Dieter F. Uchtdorf, GC Oct. 2015

 

3 Nephi 27:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

 

2 Nephi 31:

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

 

3 Nephi 11:

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

 

Hebrews 6:

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Edited October 21, 2015 by filovirus

[Tacenda]

"Sometimes, the truth may just seem too straightforward, too plain, and too simple for us to fully appreciate its great value. So we set aside what we have experienced and know to be true in pursuit of more mysterious or complicated information. Hopefully we will learn that when we chase after shadows, we are pursuing matters that have little substance and value"... "This beautiful gospel is so simple a child can grasp it." Dieter F. Uchtdorf, GC Oct. 2015

 

3 Nephi 27:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

 

2 Nephi 31:

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

 

3 Nephi 11:

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

 

Hebrews 6:

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Sounds like every other Christian faith out there.  Can't you do all the things you mention in another church? 

[Jeanne]

I don't know your back story. What I do know is that many people make sacred covenants between themselves and God, be they baptismal covenants or temple covenants. It is not good to willfully break those promises made before God and witnesses. Just because other denominations have many of the truths of the Gospel does not necessarily make them the Lord's church. I don't understand how a person can trade the fullness of the Gospel for something less.

Willfully???  How I struggled.  An eight year old baptism is left behind now..but what about that fullness?   I was 46 years old when I found out that I didn't get the fullness..the gospel and some things that were withheld from me it seems.  I didn't trade anything.  The truth  didn't seem to matter when taught the gospel of the LDS Church.  I felt lied to. My backstory is full of broken promises.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Jeanne

[filovirus]

Willfully???  How I struggled.  An eight year old baptism is left behind now..but what about that fullness?   I was 46 years old when I found out that I didn't get the fullness..the gospel and some things that were withheld from me it seems.  I didn't trade anything.  The truth  didn't seem to matter when taught the gospel of the LDS Church.  I felt lied to. My backstory is full of broken promises.

I'm curious, which points of the Doctrine were withheld?

[filovirus]

Sounds like every other Christian faith out there.  Can't you do all the things you mention in another church? 

The authority from God to perform baptisms and the other ordinances and covenants we make as we "endure to the end" cannot be found in every other Christian faith. So no, they cannot do all the things I mentioned.

[Tacenda]

The authority from God to perform baptisms and the other ordinances and covenants we make as we "endure to the end" cannot be found in every other Christian faith. So no, they cannot do all the things I mentioned.

They believe they have authority also.  Why do I have to go through men to get my authority?  If you read my c/p it mentions authority is given to all who have faith and believe.   

 

http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/spiritual_authority.php

 

Authority has been given to "Them who believe"

Jesus gave His disciples authority to carry out His will here on earth, but they weren't the only ones. He also gave ALL believers authority to heal the sick and cast out devils as well! (Mark 16:17-18)

 

Authority to cast out demons: Mark 16:17, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils..."

 

Authority to heal the sick: Mark 16:17-18, "And these signs shall follow them that believe...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Mark 13:34, "For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch."

 

Authority is accessed through faith

It is also helpful to point out that our spiritual authority is accessed by faith. There is a lot to be learned from the story told in Mark 9:17-29 about how faith allows us to access our authority. When the disciples came across an unusually strong demon that wouldn't budge (verse 18), Jesus made it clear that they lacked faith by calling them faithless (verse 19). He also made it clear that some demons are so strong that a higher than usual level of faith is required to cast them out (verses 28 and 29), and that we can gain that higher level of faith through prayer and fasting (verse 29).

Matthew 17:20, "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Edited October 22, 2015 by Tacenda

[filovirus]

They believe they have authority also.  Why do I have to go through men to get my authority?  If you read my c/p it mentions authority is given to all who have faith and believe.   

 

http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/spiritual_authority.php

 

Authority has been given to "Them who believe"

Jesus gave His disciples authority to carry out His will here on earth, but they weren't the only ones. He also gave ALL believers authority to heal the sick and cast out devils as well! (Mark 16:17-18)

 

Authority to cast out demons: Mark 16:17, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils..."

 

Authority to heal the sick: Mark 16:17-18, "And these signs shall follow them that believe...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Mark 13:34, "For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch."

 

Authority is accessed through faith

It is also helpful to point out that our spiritual authority is accessed by faith. There is a lot to be learned from the story told in Mark 9:17-29 about how faith allows us to access our authority. When the disciples came across an unusually strong demon that wouldn't budge (verse 18), Jesus made it clear that they lacked faith by calling them faithless (verse 19). He also made it clear that some demons are so strong that a higher than usual level of faith is required to cast them out (verses 28 and 29), and that we can gain that higher level of faith through prayer and fasting (verse 29).

Matthew 17:20, "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Sorry, I don't want to go back and forth sharing bible verses, each of us trying to score a point against the other, yet talking past each other the whole time. Your concerns are valid, and I admit I probably don't have an answer you would find acceptable.

All I know is that Joseph Smith received his priesthood directly from resurrected beings and passed it down in the manner he received it, by the laying on of hands. You are free to challenge that if you wish, but I have no proof other than my own personal enlightenment from the spirit and Joseph's own words.

[Tacenda]

Sorry, I don't want to go back and forth sharing bible verses, each of us trying to score a point against the other, yet talking past each other the whole time. Your concerns are valid, and I admit I probably don't have an answer you would find acceptable.

All I know is that Joseph Smith received his priesthood directly from resurrected beings and passed it down in the manner he received it, by the laying on of hands. You are free to challenge that if you wish, but I have no proof other than my own personal enlightenment from the spirit and Joseph's own words.

No problem.

[Garden Girl]

They believe they have authority also.  Why do I have to go through men to get my authority?  If you read my c/p it mentions authority is given to all who have faith and believe.   

Matthew 17:20, "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

 

 

Sorry, I don't want to go back and forth sharing bible verses, each of us trying to score a point against the other, yet talking past each other the whole time. Your concerns are valid, and I admit I probably don't have an answer you would find acceptable.

All I know is that Joseph Smith received his priesthood directly from resurrected beings and passed it down in the manner he received it, by the laying on of hands. You are free to challenge that if you wish, but I have no proof other than my own personal enlightenment from the spirit and Joseph's own words.

 

Hello Tacenda...

There is a difference between having Faith and having Authority.... we are told throughout the scriptures, some of which you have pointed out, that our faithful prayers will be answered if our belief and our faith are strong... if we fast and pray...

The Lord doesn't just hear and answer LDS prayers... he hears and answers prayers of anyone who turns to him in true belief and faith... I know that my mother's prayers for me were answered numerous times as I grew up.  Example: as a child of about five, I took a terrible fall and suffered a serious concussion... we were extremely poor and my mom couldn't afford to have me in the hospital, so she had our little country doctor look in on me as I went in and out of consciousness for about a week.  I can remember my mom kneeling at my bedside and praying... pleading... for me.  One day I simply awoke and I was up and about with no lasting effects...  prayers of a desperate, faithful mother, answered...

On the other hand, my mom, although faithful, did not have authority to baptize, or perform ordinances, or bind on earth and in heaven or loose on earth and in heaven... In Matt 16: 19, Jesus is talking with his disciples and he tells Peter... And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.   It is these keys that were restored to the earth through Peter, James and John to Joseph Smith, i.e., the priesthood authority...

A good example of "authority" can be found in Acts 8:9-20... We see that there was a man named Simon in Samaria, who had been going about using sorcery to bewitch people, giving himself out to be someone great... causing the people to say that he had the power of God.

But comes the apostle Phillip to Samaria, preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ... and people believed and were baptized.

And Simon himself believed and was also baptized... and he continued along with Phillip as he went about preaching and performing miracles, baptizing the people...

When the apostles who were in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John who, when they came down to Samaria, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost... for as yet they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.  When Peter and John arrived in Samaria, they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost.

Now when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, Simon offered them money, saying, Give me also this power, that whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost... But Peter said to him.. Thy money perish with thee, because thou has thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

 

Our prayers are answered as promised, because of our faith... our belief... but it is through priesthood authority... the keys that were restored through Joseph that binding covenants are made...  and I've received a witness of the Spirit of that authority... the authority that sealed me to my family as we knelt around the altar in the SLC temple when I was 14 years old.

 

GG

[Stargazer]

Garden Girl answered this well, but I wanted to give it a shot as well. Perhaps I can add something useful.

But I hesitate to chime in where filovirus fears to tread, and for the same reason. He wrote: "I don't want to go back and forth sharing bible verses, each of us trying to score a point against the other, yet talking past each other the whole time." When we start dueling scripture verses, we have already lost something important. I attack with Mark 16:18-18 and you parry my thrust with Acts 2:2-6. Not good! For one thing, both scriptures are true, and they do not cancel each other out. They are to be understood as a unit. I shall demonstrate below.

Another reason to hesitate is the fear that I have to multiply words in order to get my point across, and the multiplication may result in the words not being read because they go on and on. I may end up trimming this down to the bare bones before I post this. Endangering my point in the process, but we'll see.
 

They believe they have authority also.  Why do I have to go through men to get my authority?  If you read my c/p it mentions authority is given to all who have faith and believe.

And there we have the problem in a nutshell. They believe this and they believe that. But mere belief brings nothing to the table. To put a light-hearted spin on it, Jesse James believed that the money in those banks belonged to him, so he took it.

First of all, what is "authority"? I won't argue with the principle that any believer can access the power of God through the name of Jesus Christ, because that is inarguable. The best demonstration of this occurred when the Apostles came to Jesus to complain that somebody or other who had not been ordained to the priesthood ("followeth not with us") had cast out devils through the invocation of the name of Jesus Christ (Luke 9:49,50).

49 ¶And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out
devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against
us is for us.

But do you see any invocation of priesthood authority there? Garden Girl already mentioned the case of Simon Magus, who thought to buy the power of God to confer the Holy Ghost from Peter and John -- but wait! Why couldn't the people of Samaria give themselves the Gift of the Holy Ghost, if mere belief conferred the authority? Because God's kingdom is one of order and not chaos.

And as to "Why do I have to go through men to get my authority?" well, if you get your authority through a man's false explanation of a scripture, then where have you gotten it except through a man? If the authority is supposed to come through God via a prophet of God, then if you get it some other way, you're not getting any true authority then, are you?
 

http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/spiritual_authority.php
 
Authority has been given to "Them who believe"
Jesus gave His disciples authority to carry out His will here on earth, but they weren't the only ones. He also gave ALL believers authority to heal the sick and cast out devils as well! (Mark 16:17-18)
 
Authority to cast out demons: Mark 16:17, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils..."
 
Authority to heal the sick: Mark 16:17-18, "And these signs shall follow them that believe...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Absolutely true! Garden Girl already covered this in her personal story and witness. The authority of believers to perform miracles is amply demonstrated throughout Christian history, even during the times when the fulness of the Gospel was not upon the earth, and the priesthood was not to be had among men.
 

Mark 13:34, "For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch."

 

This one is quoted as if supports the case of the authority of believers, but it does the exact opposite. The servants of the master of the house did not take upon themselves any authority to operate the master's household through their belief. The master gave them that authority explicitly, and made the porter the man in overall charge. If believers had inherent authority, then the master in the Lord's parable would not have bothered to give out any authority, he would have just left the household without giving instructions. But in that case, without explicit authority being given out by the master, the household would likely have broken up into competing factions and the porter, the baker and the herdsman would have been running their portions of the estate at odds with everyone else. Which is pretty much what happened to Christendom after the Apostles were taken from the earth. There was no recognized authority left, so the kingdom fell into disunity, and this condition prevailed for the next 1,700 years.
 

Authority is accessed through faith
It is also helpful to point out that our spiritual authority is accessed by faith. There is a lot to be learned from the story told in Mark 9:17-29 about how faith allows us to access our authority. When the disciples came across an unusually strong demon that wouldn't budge (verse 18), Jesus made it clear that they lacked faith by calling them faithless (verse 19). He also made it clear that some demons are so strong that a higher than usual level of faith is required to cast them out (verses 28 and 29), and that we can gain that higher level of faith through prayer and fasting (verse 29).
Matthew 17:20, "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

This is more of the same kind of example as found in that first scripture, Mark 16:17-18. And like I said, there is no argument about this!

But when we speak of miracles such as casting out demons and healing the sick, "authority" is not the best word. The best word in these cases is actually "power". The two words are related in meaning, and are sometimes used interchangeably, but they do not mean precisely the same thing. I can cast out a demon by my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, because there is power in faith -- or at least there is faith power in something which is true. There is no faith power in that which is not true. Something that Joseph Smith pointed out in the first part of the Lectures on Faith.

The difference between power and authority is that while power can be had through faith, authority originates only through God-directed channels. Consider the case of Paul coming across 12 believers who had never heard of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 19:1-6)

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having
passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And
they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto
John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying
unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him,
that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and
they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Note well, that the men said that they had been baptized "unto John's baptism", not that John had baptized them. It is clear that Paul understood that these men had been baptized by a well-meaning person, but not by someone who had authority to do it (i.e. John the Baptist), who taught the Holy Ghost as well. So Paul baptized them and conferred the Holy Ghost upon them. Now, if Paul had believed in the theory that faith conferred authority, then he would have simply finished the job and gave them the Holy Ghost.

The New Testament is full of examples of ordinances that needed to be performed by someone with authority, as opposed to faith power. It just doesn't get noticed by the Protestants who have forgotten all about Priesthood. The first example harks back to that Acts 19:1-6 above. Here's John the Baptist baptizing people. But why? If faith power sufficed, then John would have been one among many who were baptizing, and eventually everyone who had been baptized would have been baptizing as well. In fact, if faith confers authority, then lots of people who hadn't yet been baptized could have been baptizing. Yet this isn't what happened. John alone was baptizing, and John's disciples went abroad among the Jews teaching all to come to John to be baptized. That is, until Jesus came and began baptizing -- except that it is said that Jesus didn't baptize anyone, but had his apostles perform that ordinance.

I wrote above that God's kingdom is one of order and not chaos. What do you have if every person with faith has the authority to organize his or her own little corner of the kingdom? That's right, you will have chaos. And I'm sure you've noticed that chaos is exactly what we have. The power of faith is totally insufficient to organize the Kingdom of God, and this has been richly demonstrated by the fact that every one of the sects that have grown up since the days of the Apostles not only understand the scriptures differently, but many of them act as if the scriptures don't mean what they say. How many Christian sects believe that baptism, for example, is optional? A number of Protestant denominations do believe this. And in the face of Jesus proclaiming to Nicodemus that it is essential! Well, the Protestants simply must believe this way, because the Roman Catholic Church, against whom they rebelled, claimed actual authority. If you rebel against authority, well you have to find some way to repudiate authority so as not to be found in violation of it, or assume the authority yourself. And there is no better way to rebel against authority than to proclaim that there is no authority -- and so we get the silly notion that faith power is all you need.

This is why a Restoration was absolutely necessary. There was still a lot of faith power -- the Gospel of Jesus Christ is so powerful that the power of faith can continue over centuries without priesthood authority to guide it. But without authority the fulness of the Gospel had been lost and much corruption had entered in. How many people were following correct doctrine when Joseph Smith re-established the Church of Christ? Virtually none. Consider the Atonement, the single most important doctrine of the Gospel, and in fact the very center of it. You had one major Church that taught that it was the sole gateway to God's forgiveness, and at various times in its history it was selling this forgiveness for money, and requiring that people perform painful acts of self-punishment in order to get it as well. Even though the scriptures were clear that Christ's suffering was the only suffering necessary, and that it was to be had without price (Isaiah 55:1). Other Churches solemnly taught that simply believing in Jesus Christ was sufficient, and that no further acts were required to gain salvation. Again, in opposition to what Christ taught, when He said that obedience to the commandments was still required. This line of teaching has matured even further, such that an Evangelical Christian on this very board has recently proclaimed that acts performed in obedience to Christ's teaching the keeping of commandments are "filthy acts". According to some Evangelicals, once you accept Christ as your Savior you can go on to commit any sins you like and you're still good to go! You've never seen the famous bumper sticker that reads: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven!" That's what they mean. It's called "cheap grace", and some Evangelicals argue against it, but others revel in it.

This endless dividing up into endless distortions of the Gospel message comes about because the only thing left to Christians was the power of faith and a complete lack of prophetic guidance and leadership. And no priesthood authority.

So, if we won't obtain our authority from God, then we can only obtain it from men. And you see what we get.

The only question left is this: has Christ restored the fulness of His Gospel to the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith, or not? If he hasn't then all you have left is a total Babel of strange and incoherent beliefs and fairy tales. And in that environment, I guess all you can do is decide which doctrines please you the most and adhere to them, for that's all you have left.

I've received rich testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that by direction of the Lord Jesus Christ he restored the Lord's priesthood to the earth, along with His Church. But that's me, and you're your own case. I suggest you might profit from an attempt to gain (or re-gain) a testimony of these things. Note that I'm not calling you to repentance -- that's against the board rules! I just think it might be a good idea to think these things through some more.  You've been given the Gift of the Holy Ghost -- a priceless gift that we should all use far more than we do.  We're all living way beneath our privileges.

[rpn]

Interesting that the leader knew all about beer pong.  (Did your daughter know?  See last week's instragram of Malaya's stop in St. Louis. )    It is interesting to me as an adult that I can hear the songs I loved as a youth, and realize all the double entrendre's that my parents were clearly hearing, that I had no clue about as I listened all those years ago.   They were "protecting me" or judging the music based on things I didn't even get (and I was among the most advanced in language of my peers).

[danielwoods]

This endless dividing up into endless distortions of the Gospel message comes about because the only thing left to Christians was the power of faith and a complete lack of prophetic guidance and leadership. And no priesthood authority.

So, if we won't obtain our authority from God, then we can only obtain it from men. And you see what we get.

The only question left is this: has Christ restored the fulness of His Gospel to the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith, or not? If he hasn't then all you have left is a total Babel of strange and incoherent beliefs and fairy tales. And in that environment, I guess all you can do is decide which doctrines please you the most and adhere to them, for that's all you have left.

 

 

That is all anyone ever has, their own beliefs. We aren't saved as a collective, we aren't judged as a collective. We are individuals. We all have the choice, individually to follow Christ or not. To have a relationship with him or not. No amount of talk or claims of authority changes this. It's all His authority and always has been, and he's the only judge.