JLHPROF Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 Jesus Christ reveals what He sees fit to reveal through His prophets. He revealed to Wilford Woodruff that it was time to end polygamy, and He revealed to Heber J. Grant that it was time to keep the Word of Wisdom in order to enter His Temple. Yeah, about that...
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 It's funny to think about how there's so much pain and suffering in the world and in the 1800s God decides to send an angel with a flaming sword to threaten Joseph Smith to marry lots of women to better the world. That's where divine intervention and angels appear in the world.
JLHPROF Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 It's funny to think about how there's so much pain and suffering in the world and in the 1800s God decides to send an angel with a flaming sword to threaten Joseph Smith to marry lots of women to better the world. That's where divine intervention and angels appear in the world. The pain and the suffering is the result of man having agency to screw things up.Angels are sent to prevent God's plans from being screwed up. Nothing can halt the work of God, so if divine intervention is needed to ensure mortal men establish one of the eternal laws in the last dispensation, God is going to ensure the restoration and the plan of the earth isn't stopped by men's weakness.But no angel was sent to stop Joseph from making other mistakes that didn't threaten the gospel restoration. Divine intervention is used to ensure the work of God, not to prevent mankind from using their agency to do wrong.
Gilbert Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Every one of the prophets who have led Jesus Christ’s Church in these latter days has maintained that Doctrine and Covenants Section 132 was a revelation from God. Anyone who says it was not a revelation from God is calling the Prophet Joseph Smith a liar and an adulterer, and they are saying that virtually every one of his successors as God’s prophet on the earth was either a liar or they were deceived by Satan. But I am not surprised that there are those who will reject a revelation from Jesus Christ. In John 6:65-69, it states: “And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except he doeth the will of my Father who hath sent me. “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. “Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? “Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. “And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” If many of the disciples who had been following and listening to the Lord Jesus Christ in person will reject one thing he says and follow him no more, how much easier is it to reject what one of his prophets say?Exactly.
Thinking Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 It really is no different than having more than one kid. A family with 10 kids can just as loving and faithful to each other as a family with one kid. I would contend that the love between spouses is very different than the love between a parent and a child.
Gilbert Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 I would contend that the love between spouses is very different than the love between a parent and a child.Perhaps in expression but not in experiencing. Love is not a zero sum experience. 1
Calm Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 In modern relationships, part of the uniqueness of a marriage is the sense of exclusiveness it has. It may not be necessary, but it won't be the same type of relationship if you remove that exclusiveness.
Thinking Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Love is not a zero sum experience. That's a nice theory, but reality doesn't necessarily match theory.
sunstoned Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 The pain and the suffering is the result of man having agency to screw things up.Angels are sent to prevent God's plans from being screwed up. Nothing can halt the work of God, so if divine intervention is needed to ensure mortal men establish one of the eternal laws in the last dispensation, God is going to ensure the restoration and the plan of the earth isn't stopped by men's weakness.But no angel was sent to stop Joseph from making other mistakes that didn't threaten the gospel restoration. Divine intervention is used to ensure the work of God, not to prevent mankind from using their agency to do wrong.Using this logic, then why didn't God send angels down to prevent the U.S. Congress from ending this "eternal law"?
Believing Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 The thinking that any principle, commandment from God must be exempt from human pain or suffering is an interesting idea and continues to show that many of God's children prefers the reverse teaching.....wide is the way that leads us to Happiness and eternal life...yah, that's it, telling God what is acceptable as a commandment really works for many.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) I don't want to resurrect any really old threads about Emma Smith and polygamy so I feel here is the best place to ask: is Emma Smith considered an apostate? She left the Mormon church after Joseph died and joined the RLDS and had beef with Brigham Young. Isn't it bad to leave the church, especially if you're the widow of the founder? Or do we give Emma a free pass for leaving, but condemn other apostates who leave the church? Serious question that's been on my mind. This is right from Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses: "Emma took that revelation, supposing she had all there was; but Joseph had wisdom enough to take care of it, and he had handed the revelation to Bishop Whitney, and he wrote it all off. After Joseph had been to Bishop Whitney's he went home, and Emma began to teasing for the revelation. Said she'Joseph you promised me that revelation, and if you are a man of your word you will give it to me.' Joseph took it from his pocket and said 'Take it.' She went to the fireplace and put it in, and put the candle under it and burnt it, and she thought that was the end of it, AND SHE WILL BE DAMNED as sure as she is a living woman. Joseph used to say that he would have her hereafter, IF HE HAD TO GO TO HELL FOR HER, AND HE WILL HAVE TO GO TO HELL FOR HER AS SURE AS HE EVER GETS HER." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, p. 159) Edited October 18, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie
JLHPROF Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 I don't want to resurrect any really old threads about Emma Smith and polygamy so I feel here is the best place to ask: is Emma Smith considered an apostate? She left the Mormon church after Joseph died and joined the RLDS and had beef with Brigham Young. Isn't it bad to leave the church, especially if you're the widow of the founder? Or do we give Emma a free pass for leaving, but condemn other apostates who leave the church? Serious question that's been on my mind.This is right from Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses: "Emma took that revelation, supposing she had all there was; but Joseph had wisdom enough to take care of it, and he had handed the revelation to Bishop Whitney, and he wrote it all off. After Joseph had been to Bishop Whitney's he went home, and Emma began to teasing for the revelation. Said she'Joseph you promised me that revelation, and if you are a man of your word you will give it to me.' Joseph took it from his pocket and said 'Take it.' She went to the fireplace and put it in, and put the candle under it and burnt it, and she thought that was the end of it, AND SHE WILL BE DAMNED as sure as she is a living woman. Joseph used to say that he would have her hereafter, IF HE HAD TO GO TO HELL FOR HER, AND HE WILL HAVE TO GO TO HELL FOR HER AS SURE AS HE EVER GETS HER."(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, p. 159) Personal opinion - yes, Emma Smith definitely apostatized. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise with any accuracy. But Brigham's fiery rhetoric was over the top even if there are correct gospel principles scattered in his words.I do think some people give Emma a free pass for apostatizing when they should be a bit more honest. But I also believe she will receive her exaltation and be part of her husbands eternal family. That's my opinion.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 So does that mean there's hope for other apostates or couples who have one member become an apostate in hope that they will be together if they're sealed anyway if we give Emma a pass in her apostasy. Shouldn't everyone get a break?
Jeanne Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 IMO I don't think that polygamy was a commandment of God.
Calm Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 "Shouldn't everyone get a break?" They do. No one will be deprived of the chance of God's mercy. Whether or not they take advantage of it, either now or later, is up to them. 1
JLHPROF Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 IMO I don't think that polygamy was a commandment of God. Well, unless I misunderstood you leaving the Church, you also don't think Joseph was a prophet or that the Church is true.
JLHPROF Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 So does that mean there's hope for other apostates or couples who have one member become an apostate in hope that they will be together if they're sealed anyway if we give Emma a pass in her apostasy. Shouldn't everyone get a break? "Shouldn't everyone get a break?" They do. No one will be deprived of the chance of God's mercy. Whether or not they take advantage of it, either now or later, is up to them. Cal beat me to it and she's exactly right.People think that apostatizing from the Church removes any covenant they made with God. I am not so convinced.I think a lot of people who have gone astray will eventually be held to their covenants, marital and otherwise. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I was always told unofficially that apostates would go to spirit prison and telestial kingdom so that's why I was wondering.
Thinking Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 People think that apostatizing from the Church removes any covenant they made with God. It's not that we think we can apostatize to remove the covenant. If I don't believe that the LDS Church is God's church, then the covenants I made were with the LDS Church and not God, excepting of course the civil marriage covenant which I made with my wife.
iWriteStuff Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Cal beat me to it and she's exactly right.People think that apostatizing from the Church removes any covenant they made with God. I am not so convinced.I think a lot of people who have gone astray will eventually be held to their covenants, marital and otherwise.Think of the words used in extending covenants in the temple... who is it before/to? No mention is made of the church whatsoever. It's all about making them before God, angels, etc.... Who are we to think that they won't testify of those covenants and to whom we made them when the day of judgment arrives? Even those who fell away after making the covenants still can't deny that the covenant was entered into. 1
JLHPROF Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 It's not that we think we can apostatize to remove the covenant. If I don't believe that the LDS Church is God's church, then the covenants I made were with the LDS Church and not God, excepting of course the civil marriage covenant which I made with my wife. Think of the words used in extending covenants in the temple... who is it before/to? No mention is made of the church whatsoever. It's all about making them before God, angels, etc.... Who are we to think that they won't testify of those covenants and to whom we made them when the day of judgment arrives? Even those who fell away after making the covenants still can't deny that the covenant was entered into. The validity of a covenant between man and God is not dependent on the man continuing to believe in God if God so chooses to hold the man to the promise made. What we "believe" isn't the issue. The fact that a valid covenant was entered into between man and God and God upheld his end is all that matters to compel us to uphold ours at some point in the future unless God gives up on us and for lack of a better term "writes off" the covenant. Whether you no longer believe the covenant to be valid doesn't matter to what God believes. 1
Jeanne Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Well, unless I misunderstood you leaving the Church, you also don't think Joseph was a prophet or that the Church is true.This is true.
cinepro Posted October 19, 2015 Author Posted October 19, 2015 Every one of the prophets who have led Jesus Christ’s Church in these latter days has maintained that Doctrine and Covenants Section 132 was a revelation from God. Anyone who says it was not a revelation from God is calling the Prophet Joseph Smith a liar and an adulterer, and they are saying that virtually every one of his successors as God’s prophet on the earth was either a liar or they were deceived by Satan. But I am not surprised that there are those who will reject a revelation from Jesus Christ. In John 6:65-69, it states: “And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except he doeth the will of my Father who hath sent me. “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. “Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? “Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. “And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” If many of the disciples who had been following and listening to the Lord Jesus Christ in person will reject one thing he says and follow him no more, how much easier is it to reject what one of his prophets say? Tony, we do believe in fallible leaders who sometimes make mistakes. Even serious ones that get perpetuated for decades. 1
cinepro Posted October 19, 2015 Author Posted October 19, 2015 Sorry. Did I make the assumption that when you said polygamy you were referring to Eternal (Celestial) Plural Marriage?If you just meant polygamy the social practice then I retract the statement. Otherwise if you meant polygamy as practiced by the LDS Church from 1842ish-1904 then it stands - see D&C 132 vs 19, 39, 45-46.(Fanny Alger being the real question mark). If the sealing power is required for LDS polygamy, than Fanny Alger is an exclamation point, not a question mark. 3
Tony Frank Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Tony, we do believe in fallible leaders who sometimes make mistakes. Even serious ones that get perpetuated for decades. cinepro, God’s ways are not man’s ways. When the gospel was restored in 1830, man’s ways were to enslave black people and segregate black people. Jesus Christ once referred to the gentiles as “dogs” and stated that the gospel was not to be preached to them. The Bible tells us that Jesus sent the Apostles to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” and specifically told them not to go to “the Gentiles.” The gospel was not preached to the Gentiles until after Peter had the vision that he related in Acts, chapter 11. Could it be that God knows the best way to build up His kingdom in these latter days and that God would give the priesthood to blacks in His own due time? Anyone wondering about blacks and the priesthood needs to read this article. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/12/steadfast-african-pioneer?lang=eng 1
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