Wow Wasn't A Commandment, And Now It Is. Polygamy Was A Commandment, And Now It Isn't.

[HappyJackWagon]

Utter poppycock.

 

Rep point for the use of "poppycock".

 

It's a fun word.

[Thinking]

Can you give an example of "changes made to the revealed gospel by his prophets"? Just one example please. I will address them one by one if you have examples. Please quote scriptures or quote Latter-day prophets.

 

Nah...

Pretty much everyone on this board can name a change made, but no two people can agree on which ones (if any) matter.

More debates on these changes throughout the history of the gospel have occurred on this board than you can shake a stick at.

You're new here, but trust me, however you would "address" them has been done before.

 

Besides, you've already made it clear which philosophical camp you fall in where the gospel is concerned and there is no point in debating with that particular camp. The gospel is true, the Church is God's church.  Hang around here long enough and EVERY change the Church has ever made will pop up for debate again. 

 

As Bluebell explained to a new poster in another thread,

I'm going to need to see a reference for that statement.  I understand that you're new so might not be aware, but this is a formal Call For References (known as a CFR).  You must provide references to support the statement...or retract it.

 

 

I didn't know that "Nah" was an appropriate response to a CFR. or CFE (call for examples).

[JLHPROF]

As Bluebell explained to a new poster in another thread,

 

I didn't know that "Nah" was an appropriate response to a CFR. or CFE (call for examples).

 

I didn't realize that a formal CFR had been issued.

Just another new poster wanting to present the same arguments for the Church making easily observable changes to its ordinances and teachings.  The title of this thread is as good a reference on that as any I would dig up.

 

Why request something that is there for all to see as a CFR?  Now, we can debate whether those changes are significant, correct, or actually changes, but we don't need to CFR that the sky is blue, water is wet, or that doctrines and ordinances in the Church have developed over time.

 

I don't answer CFR's from evangelicals asking for proof of priesthood in the Bible either for the same reason - their responses and those debates have been had many times.

A CFR implies I made a claim that needs to be backed up.  I don't believe I made any such claim.

Edited October 21, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Thinking]

I didn't realize that a formal CFR had been issued.

A CFR implies I made a claim that needs to be backed up.  I don't believe I made any such claim.

 

Tony asked for one example of changes made to the revealed gospel by his prophets. He even said please. Your response? Nah...

 

This was your claim.

History and scripture is FULL of examples of prophetic error and God's corrections.

 

All Tony wanted was one example. Nope. Been discussed. Let's move on.

[JLHPROF]

Tony asked for one example of changes made to the revealed gospel by his prophets. He even said please. Your response? Nah...

 

This was your claim.

 

All Tony wanted was one example. Nope. Been discussed. Let's move on.

 

Ok, here are my first two changes he can address - Wow Wasn't A Commandment, And Now It Is. Polygamy Was A Commandment, And Now It Isn't.

 

I apologize if I came across dismissive.

[hagoth7]

So, would the marriage to Fanny have been legal?

Legal in God's eyes or in man's?

 

As to man's laws, I know zilch about early Ohio laws. I would suggest asking someone who has studied such things.

[Tony Frank]

Ok, here are my first two changes he can address - Wow Wasn't A Commandment, And Now It Is. Polygamy Was A Commandment, And Now It Isn't.

 

I apologize if I came across dismissive.

 

Jesus Christ revealed to Wilford Woodruff that it was time to end polygamy, and He revealed to Heber J. Grant that it was time to keep the Word of Wisdom in order to enter His Temple. He reveals whatever He sees fit to reveal through His prophets.

 

Why is this hard to understand?

[JLHPROF]

Jesus Christ revealed to Wilford Woodruff that it was time to end polygamy, and He revealed to Heber J. Grant that it was time to keep the Word of Wisdom in order to enter His Temple. He reveals whatever He sees fit to reveal through His prophets.

 

 

#1 - Wilford Woodruff DIDN'T end polygamy - it continued with GA approval for at least 14 years after the manifesto.

#2 - Where is the revelation to Heber J. Grant that I may study it along with the original revelation on the word of wisdom?

 

Now, how about a harder challenge.

1. Prior to about 1915 (the earliest reference I can find in around the 1870s, the God of the Old Testament, Jehovah, the Lord God, was NOT considered to be the premortal Jesus Christ.  Prior to that time Christ and Jehovah were considered two separate beings.  That changed and there is no record of any revelation teaching that change.

 

2. Joseph F. Smith taught "the garments must be clean and white, and of the approved pattern; they must not be altered or mutilated [i.e., changed by the women], and are to be worn as intended, down to the wrist and ankles, and around the neck."  and that "there are those of us who mutilate them, in order that we may follow the foolish, vain and (permit me to say) indecent practices of the world. In order that such persons may imitate the fashions, they will not hesitate to mutilate that which should be held by them the most sacred of all things in the world, next to their own virtue, next to their own purity of life. They should hold these things that God has given unto them sacred, unchanged and unaltered from the very pattern in which God gave them."

 

He'd not been dead 5 years and the garments were altered and again, no record of any revelation teaching that change (just a committee recommendation).

 

3. Brigham Young taught the Adam-God doctrine which he said was given him by revelation and was integrated into the temple ceremony.

It was later removed and Spencer W. KImball called it a heresy, again with no claimed revelation for the change.

 

4. Rebaptism for renewal of covenants was practiced by members of the Church all throughout the 19th Century.  It was stopped after the turn of the century.  No revelation was given to explain the change.

 

There's 4 more.

[Tony Frank]

#1 - Wilford Woodruff DIDN'T end polygamy - it continued with GA approval for at least 14 years after the manifesto.

Do you have a link to documentary evidence of this claim?

 

 

#2 - Where is the revelation to Heber J. Grant that I may study it along with the original revelation on the word of wisdom?

Latter-day prophets, who receive revelation from Jesus Christ on how to lead Israel, do not write down every revelation. Prophets receive revelation on when and where to build a temple, who to call as an apostle, and anything else that Jesus Christ sees fit to reveal as He leads and directs His Church. 

 

 

Now, how about a harder challenge.

1. Prior to about 1915 (the earliest reference I can find in around the 1870s, the God of the Old Testament, Jehovah, the Lord God, was NOT considered to be the premortal Jesus Christ.  Prior to that time Christ and Jehovah were considered two separate beings.  That changed and there is no record of any revelation teaching that change.

D&C 110:3-4 states, "His voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:  I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father."

 

In Moses 1:3, God said, "Endless is my name," and in D&C 19:10, Jesus Christ said, "Endless is my name."

 

In a letter to William W. Phelps, Joseph Smith wrote, "I can assure you I feel a disposition to act on your case in a manner that will meet the approbation of Jehovah, (whose servant I am).

 

When the Nauvoo Temple was being built, Joseph Smith stated, "Never since the foundation of this Church was laid, have we seen manifested a greater willingness to comply with the requisitions of Jehovah."

 

Joseph Smith once stated, "In regard to the building up of Zion, it has to be done by the counsel of Jehovah."

 

I will address the rest of your alleged "changes made to the revealed gospel by his prophets" when I have more time.

[JLHPROF]

#1 - Wilford Woodruff DIDN'T end polygamy - it continued with GA approval for at least 14 years after the manifesto.

Do you have a link to documentary evidence of this claim?

 

Pretty much every historian and book on the subject.  That and the marriage records that show several apostles marrying additional plural wives after the manifesto (including President Woodruff if you accept some historians), and the majority of them on record as performing marriages.

http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Polygamy-Richard-Van-Wagoner/dp/0941214796/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1445529148&sr=8-1&keywords=mormon+polygamy+van+wagoner

 

#2 - Where is the revelation to Heber J. Grant that I may study it along with the original revelation on the word of wisdom?

Latter-day prophets, who receive revelation from Jesus Christ on how to lead Israel, do not write down every revelation. Prophets receive revelation on when and where to build a temple, who to call as an apostle, and anything else that Jesus Christ sees fit to reveal as He leads and directs His Church. 

 

Probably true, but accepting everything taught without question as being by revelation is not faith, it's pure blindness and not a requirement of Mormonism.

 

Now, how about a harder challenge.

1. Prior to about 1915 (the earliest reference I can find in around the 1870s, the God of the Old Testament, Jehovah, the Lord God, was NOT considered to be the premortal Jesus Christ.  Prior to that time Christ and Jehovah were considered two separate beings.  That changed and there is no record of any revelation teaching that change.

D&C 110:3-4 states, "His voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:  I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father."

 

In Moses 1:3, God said, "Endless is my name," and in D&C 19:10, Jesus Christ said, "Endless is my name."

 

In a letter to William W. Phelps, Joseph Smith wrote, "I can assure you I feel a disposition to act on your case in a manner that will meet the approbation of Jehovah, (whose servant I am).

 

When the Nauvoo Temple was being built, Joseph Smith stated, "Never since the foundation of this Church was laid, have we seen manifested a greater willingness to comply with the requisitions of Jehovah."

 

Joseph Smith once stated, "In regard to the building up of Zion, it has to be done by the counsel of Jehovah."

 

Remember, the question here is change, not whether the change is correct (I believe it incorrect - see below).
But the historical fact is Church doctrine on who Jehovah in the OT was changed big time around the turn of the 20th century and no revelation was given to support it.

 

 

None of your quotes are related to the Old Testament.  There are numerous problems with Jehovah as described in the OT being Christ.

That Christ received the office of Jehovah after his sacrifice by the time of D&C 110 I have no doubt.  That doesn't mean he had it as a premortal spirit or make him the Jehovah of the OT. 

Brigham Young also called Adam/Michael Jehovah indicating that this is an office, not a single person.

 

I am not saying that Christ isn't in the office of Jehovah NOW.  I am saying that until 1915 Christ was not considered the Jehovah in the OT.

 

Christ appeared to nobody before the Brother of Jared. Ether 3:15

but

Jehovah (the Lord) appeared to Adam and Enoch.  Genesis 3:8 & Moses 7:4, D&C 107:49

 

Jehovah (the Lord) was the father of our spirits. Zech 12:1, Jeremiah 1:4-5, Isaiah 42:5, Deut 14:1

but

Christ was a spirit child like us.  Abraham 3:27

 

Jehovah (the Lord) had power over all mortals.

but

Christ was a premortal spirit with no body and could have no power over man.  Joseph Smith TPJS 181

 

Jehovah (the Lord) expected to be prayed to. Zechariah 8:22

but

Christ wanted us to only pray to the Father.  3 Neph 29:30-31, Matt 6:9-13

 

Edited October 22, 2015 by JLHPROF

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Tony Frank-

#1 - Wilford Woodruff DIDN'T end polygamy - it continued with GA approval for at least 14 years after the manifesto.

Do you have a link to documentary evidence of this claim?

 

Like JLHPROF noted, this really isn't in dispute. Even the church acknowledges post-manifesto plural marriage. Check out the essay and pay special attention to the sections heading- After the Manifesto and The Second Manifesto.

https://www.lds.org/topics/the-manifesto-and-the-end-of-plural-marriage?lang=eng

[JLHPROF]

Like JLHPROF noted, this really isn't in dispute. Even the church acknowledges post-manifesto plural marriage. Check out the essay and pay special attention to the sections heading- After the Manifesto and The Second Manifesto.

https://www.lds.org/topics/the-manifesto-and-the-end-of-plural-marriage?lang=eng

 

And even the essay downplays how widespread post manifesto marriages were.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3001453/posts -

 

"almost half of the Latter-day Saint Church's top authorities, along with more than two hundred other men, took plural wives after the 1890 Manifesto."

 

"John W. Taylor and Matthias F. Cowley were merely two of nine or ten General Authorities who did not let the 1890 Manifesto deter them from taking plural wives. Hardy even thinks it "likely that President Wilford Woodruff also took a new plural companion in 1897" (227), although Woodruff's latest biographer disagrees"

 

"National skepticism compelled the Church not only to issue another manifesto but to request the resignations of Taylor and Cowley.

Even those actions did not end authorized plural marriages. Between 1904 and 1911, three dozen more were performed by a dwindling number of certain general and local authorities committed to perpetuating the practice."

[Jeanne]

Jesus Christ revealed to Wilford Woodruff that it was time to end polygamy, and He revealed to Heber J. Grant that it was time to keep the Word of Wisdom in order to enter His Temple. He reveals whatever He sees fit to reveal through His prophets.

 

Why is this hard to understand?

I think the US Government told Wilford Woodruff that it was time to end polygamy.

[JLHPROF]

I think the US Government told Wilford Woodruff that it was time to end polygamy.

 

I think God told Wilford Woodruff it was time to lie to the US Government.

[Thinking]

I think God told Wilford Woodruff it was time to lie to the US Government.

 

So God cannot lie, but he can tell others to lie?

[JLHPROF]

So God cannot lie, but he can tell others to lie?

 

Perhaps "deceive" is a better choice of words.  Maybe "confuse"?

 

No casting pearls before swine.  Hey I'm Abraham and here's Sarah my sister.  Hey Abraham, I want you to sacrifice your son to me - oh, psych, just kidding!  Here's a ram instead.

 

And even that may be too strong - I don't think Pres. Woodruff lied in the Manifesto.  It was very carefully worded so people would think it meant something other than what it said.

Very tricky of him.