Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 Well, that's ok.Maybe I should adopt it as my member title, since it was applied to me here on this thread.
Mars Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 I think that is an excellent answer, and I also liked your previous post about "ego". So what do we do about a two-faced person who posts one way on one board and has a totally different personality on another board? What about those who "lie in wait to deceive"? Do we call them out, or sit by passively and let them work their wiles? i think it's possible to walk a middle line. i'd be mostly in favor of: "dear Mars, i have seen your questions posted on otherboard.org. the differences in posting history there as well as expressed opinion on relevant topics to this particular question you've posted here has caused me to question your motives. it makes me think that you already have an answer and are waiting for me to say something so that you can be ready with a 'gotcha' answer. if i'm misunderstanding you, please say so. but i'd like to clear things up before responding to you." i don't think that's out of line at all. 3
sethpayne Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 How about "internet tyrant"? That's a funny phrase.
Mars Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 re: letting the critic have free rein while we are dialed back isn't that, essentially, turning the other cheek? i kinda thought that that was exactly what the Bible message was. we don't (or shouldn't) allow ourselves to get down and wrestle, or "contend warmly with our adversaries, even unto blows; yea, we would smite one another with our fists." but i'm late to this conversation so maybe it's already been pointed out.
mfbukowski Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 i have strong suspicions about people sometimes. but people used to have those strong suspicions about me. i didn't think joseph smith's story or the book of mormon lined up and i was an impudent little snot about it. (i was 15, so the impudence kinda came with the territory...) were it not for the infinite patience of an early morning seminary teacher - patience the rest of the class was in short supply of, i might add - i might not be here today. so yeah, sometimes people can come across as passive aggressive clowns who are just trying to pretend to be mormon to sow doubt and discord by having an unending series of questions. or who, in the absence of strong facts, use suggestive language and leading questions to conjure up the imagery of an overtly fallible and patently godless leadership in church hierarchy. i get really annoyed with it. but i think there are ways to deal with it without resorting to labeling them as what my suspicions tell me they are. deal with what they say, not what they are. eventually what they are will come out. some kinds of apologetics turn the audience off. that doesn't mean anyone who engages criticism in defense of the Gospel is cut from the same cloth, tho. just my two cents.Worth a lot more than that- thanks!
bluebell Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 I think that is an excellent answer, and I also liked your previous post about "ego". So what do we do about a two-faced person who posts one way on one board and has a totally different personality on another board? What about those who "lie in wait to deceive"? Do we call them out, or sit by passively and let them work their wiles? I think there are a couple of options. You can PM people who might be hurt by the duplicity (people who you see might be getting really close to that person or taking advice from them), or you can notify the mods. You could also let the person know that you know (PM or something like that) to give them a chance to be accountable. I would probably steer clear from a board-wide outing of the poster's behavior. Some people would use that as a way to become a martyr. Most people won't be harmed by someone being two faced in a message board environment. It never feels good to be taken in by a schemer but it's usually our pride that's hurt and not much else. You can confront their doctrinal opinions and even their hypocrisy without having to tell everyone everything you know. Just my opinion. 2
Mars Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 I think there are a couple of options. You can PM people who might be hurt by the duplicity (people who you see might be getting really close to that person or taking advice from them), or you can notify the mods. You could also let the person know that you know (PM or something like that) to give them a chance to be accountable. I would probably steer clear from a board-wide outing of the poster's behavior. Some people would use that as a way to become a martyr. Most people won't be harmed by someone being two faced in a message board environment. It never feels good to be taken in by a schemer but it's usually our pride that's hurt and not much else. You can confront their doctrinal opinions and even their hypocrisy without having to tell everyone everything you know. Just my opinion. if 1984 taught me anything, it's that as a would-be oppressive despotic ruler, you don't create martyrs... 3
mfbukowski Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 re: letting the critic have free rein while we are dialed back isn't that, essentially, turning the other cheek? i kinda thought that that was exactly what the Bible message was. we don't (or shouldn't) allow ourselves to get down and wrestle, or "contend warmly with our adversaries, even unto blows; yea, we would smite one another with our fists." but i'm late to this conversation so maybe it's already been pointed out.Well as far as I am concerned you can skip the earlier part of the thread- it is finally getting interesting. It was mostly folks telling me to cool my anger when I was not even angry. I am exploring what to do about someone who is a critic who masquerades as a "nice guy" just hanging out and being cool, who slips snide comments into every remark- carefully calculated to not step over the line- and yet acts completely differently on other boards. And then pm's incessantly saying how sorry he is for what he said, and how he wants to be your friend. What do you do with a person like that? Open confrontation when no one else sees it? Sit back and let him do his thing and ignore it? What's the Christlike thing to do, keeping in mind Christ cleansing the temple, our covenants to "wield a sword" to defend the gospel and other stuff like Ammon and the arms? What do you do?
Mars Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Well as far as I am concerned you can skip the earlier part of the thread- it is finally getting interesting. It was mostly folks telling me to cool my anger when I was not even angry. I am exploring what to do about someone who is a critic who masquerades as a "nice guy" just hanging out and being cool, who slips snide comments into every remark- carefully calculated to not step over the line- and yet acts completely differently on other boards. And then pm's incessantly saying how sorry he is for what he said, and how he wants to be your friend. What do you do with a person like that? Open confrontation when no one else sees it? Sit back and let him do his thing and ignore it? What's the Christlike thing to do, keeping in mind Christ cleansing the temple, our covenants to "wield a sword" to defend the gospel and other stuff like Ammon and the arms? What do you do? "what should be done?" or"what would you personally do?" Edited October 14, 2015 by Mars
mfbukowski Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 I think there are a couple of options. You can PM people who might be hurt by the duplicity (people who you see might be getting really close to that person or taking advice from them), or you can notify the mods. You could also let the person know that you know (PM or something like that) to give them a chance to be accountable. I would probably steer clear from a board-wide outing of the poster's behavior. Some people would use that as a way to become a martyr. Most people won't be harmed by someone being two faced in a message board environment. It never feels good to be taken in by a schemer but it's usually our pride that's hurt and not much else. You can confront their doctrinal opinions and even their hypocrisy without having to tell everyone everything you know. Just my opinion.Good answer. I am about at that point now actually. Clearly he will use it to be a martyr as has happened before.
mfbukowski Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 "what should be done?" or"what would you personally, Mars, do?"Lol! Let's go for door number 2.
Mars Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 Lol! Let's go for door number 2. if i'm being completely honest, there's a threshold where i'd probably wind up hitting before outing them. if i deemed their posting to be harmful to others and that harm was greater than the potential harm of outing them and creating a martyr, i'd probably out them. i hope i'd have as much patience for them as what's been exhibited towards me, though. if it was a one off exchange, it wouldn't go very far and i'd probably ignore my suspicions. but if the posting history became long and drawn out, not just theirs, but my history with theirs, i might get impatient one day and try to silence what i think is subversive and underhanded. but i'd probably regret it. 1
Ahab Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 Well as far as I am concerned you can skip the earlier part of the thread- it is finally getting interesting. It was mostly folks telling me to cool my anger when I was not even angry.I am exploring what to do about someone who is a critic who masquerades as a "nice guy" just hanging out and being cool, who slips snide comments into every remark- carefully calculated to not step over the line- and yet acts completely differently on other boards. And then pm's incessantly saying how sorry he is for what he said, and how he wants to be your friend.What do you do with a person like that?Open confrontation when no one else sees it? Sit back and let him do his thing and ignore it? What's the Christlike thing to do, keeping in mind Christ cleansing the temple, our covenants to "wield a sword" to defend the gospel and other stuff like Ammon and the arms?What do you do?First of all I realize there is nothing that I can do to stop him, which means that getting angry with him or yelling at him or using ALL CAPS with him or doing as he does will not help. At best I can only set a good example for him to follow, or point to someone else who would be a good example for him to follow, even though there would still be nothing I could do to make him want to behave a little better. Spoiled teenage brats are good practice to help develop better tactical skills when dealing with such people, and if you don't have any of your own you could probably ask around to find some.I'm really curious to find out more about how our Father deals with our big bad brother Lucifer, when he wants to put him in his place. But even then I'll have to remember that it's not my place to put Satan in his place, at least not without our Father's authority. For me he's just practice for how to deal with all other bad behaving people.
stemelbow Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) mfbukowski, It's probably wisest to just forget about it. Having a pretty good idea who troubles you, I think you are seeing duplicity where it does not exist. Some years ago I made friends with a guy who was opposed to the teachings of the Church. He and I, I had thought, understood each other and respected each other. We frequented a private board at the time. But I logged into an older board frequented moreso by ex-LDS and it turned out he was mocking me and I as I saw it lying to others about me. I took issue and confronted him expecting some sort of apology but got digging in of heels anger and resentment. I realized the friendship wasn't really there. I was a bit played and it hurt and it was no fun. But it happens. I, of course, remember it, but have pretty much dropped it other than this mention of the whole affair here. Edited October 14, 2015 by stemelbow 3
stemelbow Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 if i'm being completely honest, there's a threshold where i'd probably wind up hitting before outing them. if i deemed their posting to be harmful to others and that harm was greater than the potential harm of outing them and creating a martyr, i'd probably out them. i hope i'd have as much patience for them as what's been exhibited towards me, though. if it was a one off exchange, it wouldn't go very far and i'd probably ignore my suspicions. but if the posting history became long and drawn out, not just theirs, but my history with theirs, i might get impatient one day and try to silence what i think is subversive and underhanded. but i'd probably regret it. And some of us know who he's talking about, and have known this person for years. Probably not a good idea to continue claiming duplicity. There are two perspectives here and I think MfBukowski is mistaken in his judgment on this. As such I think it a mistake for him to continue stoking the fires of enmity. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 That's a funny phrase.Do you mean humorous or peculiar?
Mars Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) And some of us know who he's talking about, and have known this person for years. Probably not a good idea to continue claiming duplicity. There are two perspectives here and I think MfBukowski is mistaken in his judgment on this. As such I think it a mistake for him to continue stoking the fires of enmity. well, whatever private disagreement and its merits may be, the truth is i do think we have "wolves in sheep's clothing" at least, there are posters here who sometimes profess testimony - or worse, imply testimony by virtue of professed membership in the church - who use gaps in knowledge to push leading questions that suggest exploitative characters and characteristics in Church leadership figures both past and present. these questions might be posed with one particular person or exchange in mind, but they serve a good purpose as they provide a framework to discuss the issue beyond the people. Edited October 14, 2015 by Mars 1
Senator Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 So no military we are now all conscientious objectors?Answer the question
stemelbow Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 well, whatever private disagreement and its merits may be, the truth is i do think we have "wolves in sheep's clothing" at least, there are posters here who sometimes profess testimony - or worse, imply testimony by virtue of professed membership in the church - who use gaps in knowledge to push leading questions that suggest exploitative characters and characteristics in Church leadership figures both past and present. these questions might be posed with one particular person or exchange in mind, but they serve a good purpose as they provide a framework to discuss the issue beyond the people. the very ones you suspect may not be wolves in sheeps clothing at all. Perhaps they are doing the Lord's bidding more than you realize.
mfbukowski Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 if i'm being completely honest, there's a threshold where i'd probably wind up hitting before outing them. if i deemed their posting to be harmful to others and that harm was greater than the potential harm of outing them and creating a martyr, i'd probably out them. i hope i'd have as much patience for them as what's been exhibited towards me, though. if it was a one off exchange, it wouldn't go very far and i'd probably ignore my suspicions. but if the posting history became long and drawn out, not just theirs, but my history with theirs, i might get impatient one day and try to silence what i think is subversive and underhanded. but i'd probably regret it.Had to change devices, the usual one doesn't want to quote again. Good advice thanks.
Mars Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 the very ones you suspect may not be wolves in sheeps clothing at all. Perhaps they are doing the Lord's bidding more than you realize. indeed.
Senator Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 And some of us know who he's talking about, and have known this person for years. Probably not a good idea to continue claiming duplicity. There are two perspectives here and I think MfBukowski is mistaken in his judgment on this. As such I think it a mistake for him to continue stoking the fires of enmity.We all know who he is talking about. Why this game? It's insulting mfb, Why don't you start another thread entitled "I have a big problem with the poster jkwilliams" See how that goes. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 And if you think you know who I am talking about, you are probably wrong. All the guesses so far by pm are wrong. I'm done. Thanks all.
Mars Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 the very ones you suspect may not be wolves in sheeps clothing at all. Perhaps they are doing the Lord's bidding more than you realize. on second thought, no. no they are not. their fruits taste rotten to me. come out and own your position. you think joseph smith is full of garbage? say so. you think there's no way the book of mormon could have been of provident origin? say so. you on the fence but have leanings? acknowledge them. truth in lending. truth in advertising. conflicts of interest. there's all kinds of gray area where someone can exploit in so many other domains of life. this one should be no different. i will acknowledge the shortcomings of my religion and its history. i will continue to believe so long as i deem it to be God's will. but one thing i will never do when engaging a critic of my faith or a believer of another faith as a critic of theirs is leave ANY question whatsoever as to my intentions. my language will be straightforward and i will be very clear on that. leading questions. "did you stop beating your wife yet?" "why would church leaders do such a horrible thing?" (they have to have been proved to have done it first) i have no time for that nonsense. you, anyone for that matter, will always know what my predispositions and leanings will be when dealing with me. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 We all know who he is talking about. Why this game? It's insulting mfb, Why don't you start another thread entitled "I have a big problem with the poster jkwilliams" See how that goes.You have a great imagination. John is misunderstood a lot around here.
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