How Much Do We Value Free Agency?

[BTH&T]

Being new to the group here I am wondering how much we value our Free Agency.

 

A couple of things got me thinking about this.

Guns .   We just had another ugly event last week where people were killed on a collage campus.

 

So, in the Church we believe that Free Agency is paramount to God's plan for our eternal progress.

With that in mind, what should be done when others actions shake our values?

 

Do we react and say "no guns" all in the name of safety and security, there can't be things like this happen?

or

Do we realize that there is evil in the world and do our best to live the way the Lord has asked and be thankful for our blessings?

 

I know that these are hypothetical and not what really happens but where do you each stand on the importance of Free Agency?

 

I cannot begin to imagine how God feels seeing all the poor choices we each make, loving us enough to allow us to be in pain.

The positive side is that because of this agency we have the opportunity to grow and progress.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well we have many rules and commandments we have to follow and obey if we want to avoid eternal punishment so we're choosing to obey. Why we choose to obey or not obey is up to us but using free agency for bad decisions has dire consequences and we have expectations to live up to.

[JLHPROF]

Being new to the group here I am wondering how much we value our Free Agency.

 

A couple of things got me thinking about this.

Guns .   We just had another ugly event last week where people were killed on a collage campus.

 

So, in the Church we believe that Free Agency is paramount to God's plan for our eternal progress.

With that in mind, what should be done when others actions shake our values?

 

Do we react and say "no guns" all in the name of safety and security, there can't be things like this happen?

or

Do we realize that there is evil in the world and do our best to live the way the Lord has asked and be thankful for our blessings?

 

I know that these are hypothetical and not what really happens but where do you each stand on the importance of Free Agency?

 

I cannot begin to imagine how God feels seeing all the poor choices we each make, loving us enough to allow us to be in pain.

The positive side is that because of this agency we have the opportunity to grow and progress.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Agency is God's gift to man, not man's gift to man.

 

God gave man the agency to make laws for good and evil.  He gave man the agency to disobey these laws and suffer the consequences.

 

Gun control has very little to do with God.  God commanded us not to kill.  God gave us agency to make laws preventing murder.  God gave us agency to violate both his law and the laws we make.

 

And agency was never free.

[filovirus]

We should probably start with a common definition.

2 or more options = choice

2 options + different results = freedom

2 options + different results + knowledge of the results = agency

Moral agency means we have at least two options, each of which will provide a different result, and we can base our decision by knowing the results of our actions.

Accountability is accepting the results of our agency, be they good or bad.

[lowroom]

Being new to the group here I am wondering how much we value our Free Agency.

 

Do we react and say "no guns" all in the name of safety and security, there can't be things like this happen?

No, we don't say it, but most politicians will jump on one side or the other of that debate. Banning anything by saying "you cannot have or do that” has never stopped any determined person from having or doing anything. We have already made laws that it is illegal to kill but the person was not deterred. If every gun in the US magically disappeared this person could still drive their car into a crowded cafe and cause mass casualties, they could still take a backpack bomb or household pressure cooker bomb to a crowded event. I am personally fine with licensing and testing to own a gun - I just don't see how that stops a determined individual from mass killing.

I don't know that mass killings make me think as much about agency as people refusing evacuation orders to remain and die in a home in the path of a natural disaster.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I value agency more than anything. I just wish I made better decisions with my agency.

[Scott Lloyd]

Being new to the group here I am wondering how much we value our Free Agency.

 

A couple of things got me thinking about this.

Guns .   We just had another ugly event last week where people were killed on a collage campus.

 

So, in the Church we believe that Free Agency is paramount to God's plan for our eternal progress.

With that in mind, what should be done when others actions shake our values?

 

Do we react and say "no guns" all in the name of safety and security, there can't be things like this happen?

or

Do we realize that there is evil in the world and do our best to live the way the Lord has asked and be thankful for our blessings?

 

I know that these are hypothetical and not what really happens but where do you each stand on the importance of Free Agency?

 

I cannot begin to imagine how God feels seeing all the poor choices we each make, loving us enough to allow us to be in pain.

The positive side is that because of this agency we have the opportunity to grow and progress.

 

What are your thoughts?

Just as an aside, the phrase "free agency" isn't used much anymore by Church leaders. The term in the scriptures is either moral agency or just plain agency.

 

Elder (later, President) Boyd K. Packer pointed that out some years ago, and since then, authoritative discourse in the Church has not used "free" when talking about agency.

[Bee Sweet]

We used our agency when we chose Heavenly Father's plan to come to earth, I believe we should also use that agency in defending against the evil in the world.

 

Alma:48, Moroni said,

 

" We must labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of our fellowmen." Moroni preferred peaceful means, but was not afraid to fight.

 

Alma 55: 1-3,

 

" We will retain our cities and our lands, yea, we will maintain our religion and the cause of our God."

 

Alma 56: 44-48

 

Helaman asks his young soldiers if they want to go against the lamanites, and because of their faith in God,

they did not hesitate.

 

Alma 61: 15-21

 

Moroni and Pahoran do not joy in contending with their own, but will destroy internal evil to protect their citizens.

 

Yes, we realize there is evil in the world and we should do our best to live the way the Lord has asked and be thankful for our blessings,

but when its a choice between good and evil, I believe we must choose to stand against it.

[rewcox]

We used our agency when we chose Heavenly Father's plan to come to earth, I believe we should also use that agency in defending against the evil in the world.

 

Alma:48, Moroni said,

 

" We must labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of our fellowmen." Moroni preferred peaceful means, but was not afraid to fight.

 

Alma 55: 1-3,

 

" We will retain our cities and our lands, yea, we will maintain our religion and the cause of our God."

 

Alma 56: 44-48

 

Helaman asks his young soldiers if they want to go against the lamanites, and because of their faith in God,

they did not hesitate.

 

Alma 61: 15-21

 

Moroni and Pahoran do not joy in contending with their own, but will destroy internal evil to protect their citizens.

 

Yes, we realize there is evil in the world and we should do our best to live the way the Lord has asked and be thankful for our blessings,

but when its a choice between good and evil, I believe we must choose to stand against it.

Alma said, Labor without ceasing.

[iWriteStuff]

Alma said, Labor without ceasing.

 

Interesting thought that Captain Moroni was interested in defending liberty. Would it be considered liberty to shoot the shooter?

 

In other words, would Captain Moroni have had an issue dropping that Christian killing nutjob in Oregon?

[BTH&T]

Just as an aside, the phrase "free agency" isn't used much anymore by Church leaders. The term in the scriptures is either moral agency or just plain agency.

 

Elder (later, President) Boyd K. Packer pointed that out some years ago, and since then, authoritative discourse in the Church has not used "free" when talking about agency.

Thanks for the info. I can see some reasoning behind it. Do you know why the distinction was made?

[BTH&T]

You all have posted some great thoughts on the topic.

 

I have made quite a few posts in regards to "freebyu" and I wonder how many really feel grateful for their agency and accountability that comes with it?

 

I sense that many in the world today want all the obstacles in life removed. Get rid of the pain, suffering, strife, contention.

Sounds like a plan laid out by the adversary long ago.

 

If we were able to chose now knowing what life is like, how many would follow our Heavenly Father's plan or would more chose "the easy way"?

Edited October 9, 2015 by BTH&T

[cinepro]

Being new to the group here I am wondering how much we value our Free Agency.

 

A couple of things got me thinking about this.

Guns .   We just had another ugly event last week where people were killed on a collage campus.

 

So, in the Church we believe that Free Agency is paramount to God's plan for our eternal progress.

With that in mind, what should be done when others actions shake our values?

 

Do we react and say "no guns" all in the name of safety and security, there can't be things like this happen?

or

Do we realize that there is evil in the world and do our best to live the way the Lord has asked and be thankful for our blessings?

 

I know that these are hypothetical and not what really happens but where do you each stand on the importance of Free Agency?

 

I cannot begin to imagine how God feels seeing all the poor choices we each make, loving us enough to allow us to be in pain.

The positive side is that because of this agency we have the opportunity to grow and progress.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

I don't know about how God feels, but from what I can tell, the Church is very much in favor of gun control:

 

 

Firearms

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

 

https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies/21.2?lang=eng#212

 

 

Firearms and weapons are not permitted, concealed or not concealed, with or without a concealed weapon permit, while upon properties owned or controlled by the University (including on-campus housing), without specific written permission from the Chief of University Police

 

https://police.byu.edu/content/brigham-young-university-firearms-weapons-policy

Edited October 9, 2015 by cinepro

[stemelbow]

You all have posted some great thoughts on the topic.

 

I have made quite a few posts in regards to "freebyu" and I wonder how many really feel grateful for their agency and accountability that comes with it?

 

I sense that many in the world toda want all the obstacles in life removed. Get rid of the pain, suffering, strife, contention.

Sounds like a plan laid out by the adversary long ago.

 

If we were able to chose now knowing what life is like, how many would follow our Heavenly Father's plan or would more chose "the easy way"?

FreeBYU is about treating people with love and equity. But I agree opening up to loving and supporting others is a good step toward ridding ourselves of pain, suffering, strife and contention. You seem to suggest working towards that goal is a bad thing. I say it's a good thing. Fostering enmity between people is the problem we must face.

[BTH&T]

FreeBYU is about treating people with love and equity. But I agree opening up to loving and supporting others is a good step toward ridding ourselves of pain, suffering, strife and contention. You seem to suggest working towards that goal is a bad thing. I say it's a good thing. Fostering enmity between people is the problem we must face.

Sorry if I led to believe otherwise,  we do need to work through things with love and concern for each other.

 

My thought was that I see so many that don't want to accept the results of their personal actions, painful as they are.

 

Most assuredly the need for love then is greater than ever when others are hurt and suffering.

[KevinG]

I love my children enough to allow them room to make mistakes.  I also love them enough to let them feel the consequences of bad decisions.  I love them intensely enough to continue loving them despite those bad decisions.  I also teach them that there is a Savior to help them repent and heal.

 

That is the heart of respecting agency.

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks for the info. I can see some reasoning behind it. Do you know why the distinction was made?

Probably the best I could do is link you to the 1992 address by Elder (later President) Packer.

 

 

No Free Agency

The phrase “free agency” does not appear in scripture. The only agency spoken of there is moral agency, “which,” the Lord said, “I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.” (D&C 101:78; italics added.)

 

 

Perhaps he felt that use of "free" in front of "agency" was giving people the false impression they could with impunity violate the laws and commandments of God because, after all, they had their "free agency."

 

There's no directive in here forbidding the use of "free" in the phrase, but I do note that afterward, we who work on Church correlated publications were instructed to not express it as "free agency," but as moral agency or just agency.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Jeanne]

I am not so sure that any of us really know what true agency is.  Can you make choices without fear..can you grow with your decisions and choices..are we condemned always that our choices are not convenient for others?  Does agency include both good and bad choices..or do we make choices that are not good for us to please others..???  Obviously, I have a hard time picking out clothes in the morning...

[alter idem]

The ability to choose, to exercize agency is God's greatest gift to men and women, we fought a war in heaven over it, because Satan wanted to destroy it.  In the Avenger, Loki's character has an interesting interchange regarding 'freedom'.

 

 

I am Loki, of Asgard and I am burdened with glorious purpose.
Selvig: Loki, brother of Thor.
Nick Fury: We have no quarrel with your people.
Loki: An ant has no quarrel with a boot.
Nick Fury: Are you planning to step on us?
Loki: I come with glad tidings of a world made free.
Nick Fury: Free from what?
Loki: Freedom. Freedom is life's great lie. Once you accept that, in your heart...
[walks up to Eric Selvig and touches him with the scepter]
Loki: ...you will know peace.
Nick Fury: Yeah, you say "peace," I kind of think you mean the other thing.

Personally, I can imagine Satan saying something similar in trying to sway us to his side....he would have us believe that the gift of agency is a burden which we need to be relieved and protected from.  Satan's plan has not changed, since the beginning--to destroy the agency of man, but in our mortal state, he works to destroy it by subjugating us to his power and influence, through sin and transgression.

 

[Meadowchik]

Gun control might be an illustrative example.

Thr real problem is more about how we maintain personal connections in society, valuing all levels of health of everyone. It's not about waiting until one is so disturbed that they'll move forward to kill, then keeping them from guns.

In the Gospel perspective, perhaps agency is better imagined as individual nurturing, rather than guarding the gates of Heaven.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Meadowchik

[BTH&T]

Probably the best I could do is link you to the 1992 address by Elder (later President) Packer.

 

 

Perhaps he felt that use of "free" in front of "agency" was giving people the false impression they could with impunity violate the laws and commandments of God because, after all, they had their "free agency."

 

There's no directive in here forbidding the use of "free" in the phrase, but I do not that afterward, we who work on Church correlated publications were instructed not to express it as "free agency," but as moral agency or just agency.

thanks

[BTH&T]

We used our agency when we chose Heavenly Father's plan to come to earth, I believe we should also use that agency in defending against the evil in the world.

 

Alma:48, Moroni said,

 

" We must labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of our fellowmen." Moroni preferred peaceful means, but was not afraid to fight.

 

Alma 55: 1-3,

 

" We will retain our cities and our lands, yea, we will maintain our religion and the cause of our God."

 

Alma 56: 44-48

 

Helaman asks his young soldiers if they want to go against the lamanites, and because of their faith in God,

they did not hesitate.

 

Alma 61: 15-21

 

Moroni and Pahoran do not joy in contending with their own, but will destroy internal evil to protect their citizens.

 

Yes, we realize there is evil in the world and we should do our best to live the way the Lord has asked and be thankful for our blessings,

but when its a choice between good and evil, I believe we must choose to stand against it.

Agreed, we need to be doers, not hears only. Stand for right!

[mirkwood]

Absolutely Captain Moroni would have dropped the Oregon shooter.  Unhesitatingly.

[filovirus]

Absolutely Captain Moroni would have dropped the Oregon shooter.  Unhesitatingly.

Here is what Moroni did in a similar situation. Once he had Zarahemnah surrounded with his army, he spoke these words (Alma 44):

"1 And it came to pass that they did stop and withdrew a pace from them. And Moroni said unto Zerahemnah: Behold, Zerahemnah, that we do not desire to be men of blood. Ye know that ye are in our hands, yet we do not desire to slay you.

2 Behold, we have not come out to battle against you that we might shed your blood for power; neither do we desire to bring any one to the yoke of bondage. But this is the very cause for which ye have come against us; yea, and ye are angry with us because of our religion.

3 But now, ye behold that the Lord is with us; and ye behold that he has delivered you into our hands. And now I would that ye should understand that this is done unto us because of our religion and our faith in Christ. And now ye see that ye cannot destroy this our faith.

4 Now ye see that this is the true faith of God; yea, ye see that God will support, and keep, and preserve us, so long as we are faithful unto him, and unto our faith, and our religion; and never will the Lord suffer that we shall be destroyed except we should fall into transgression and deny our faith.

5 And now, Zerahemnah, I command you, in the name of that all-powerful God, who has strengthened our arms that we have gained power over you, by our faith, by our religion, and by our rites of worship, and by our church, and by the sacred support which we owe to our wives and our children, by that liberty which binds us to our lands and our country; yea, and also by the maintenance of the sacred word of God, to which we owe all our happiness; and by all that is most dear unto us—

6 Yea, and this is not all; I command you by all the desires which ye have for life, that ye deliver up your weapons of war unto us, and we will seek not your blood, but we will spare your lives, if ye will go your way and come not again to war against us.

7 And now, if ye do not this, behold, ye are in our hands, and I will command my men that they shall fall upon you, and inflict the wounds of death in your bodies, that ye may become extinct; and then we will see who shall have power over this people; yea, we will see who shall be brought into bondage."

Notice that Moroni did not wish to kill Zarahemnah. He gave him every opportunity to repent and return to his lands. Yet Zarahemna still was allowed his agency, even though he was surrounded. We can learn a lot about how we should act if a situation should ever arise from Moroni.

[mirkwood]

Captain Moroni was not engaged with an active shooter, he was in a military operation and had his enemy surrounded.  An active shooter is trying to kill as many people as fast as possible before being killed.  There may be an opportunity to tell an active shooter to drop the gun, but it is unlikely.  That being the case, stopping the threat immediately is the only response at that point.  Cpt. Moroni would not hesitate.