Child Prophet: The Curious Case Of John Willard Young, A Mormon Apostle

[The Nehor]

Amazing how you can determine my mind set from "maneuvering".

 

Truly I am impressed.

As impressive as I am I did not accomplish this feat from just that word. I had to use the whole thing:

 

"Interesting how John Willard's appointment affected the manner in which the prophet is selected and to see how Brigham was maneuvering to place his own family in positions of power within the church."

 

I am sorry if this makes you think less of me.

[The Nehor]

At the risk of sounding cliche, Occam's Razor would seem to apply here.

 

I would never prescribe Occam's Razor as a way to determine human motivations. People are not simple.

[CA Steve]

As impressive as I am I did not accomplish this feat from just that word. I had to use the whole thing:

 

"Interesting how John Willard's appointment affected the manner in which the prophet is selected and to see how Brigham was maneuvering to place his own family in positions of power within the church."

 

I am sorry if this makes you think less of me.

More mind reading.

 

Hint, your response had no bearing on what I thought of you, as it was already evident you favor snide remarks and little substance.

Edited September 29, 2015 by CA Steve

[CA Steve]

I would never prescribe Occam's Razor as a way to determine human motivations. People are not simple.

No, you seem to prefer just using a single word or sentence.

[The Nehor]

More mind reading.

 

Hint, your response had no on what I thought of you, as it was already evident you favor snide remarks and little substance.

 

I object to that characterization.

 

I prefer snide remarks with quite a bit of substance.

[The Nehor]

No, you seem to prefer just using a single word or sentence.

 

No.

[ttribe]

I would never prescribe Occam's Razor as a way to determine human motivations. People are not simple.

 

Uhh, okay.  So, the most simple (and most likely) explanation given the available evidence is that Brigham Young likely desired for his son(s) to succeed him as leader(s) of the Church.  But, you think it's a better explanation to assume Brigham Young was commanded to do this...despite how it turned out and despite the mental gymnastics necessary for your argument to hold up?  But Occam's Razor doesn't apply here.

[The Nehor]

Uhh, okay.  So, the most simple (and most likely) explanation given the available evidence is that Brigham Young likely desired for his son(s) to succeed him as leader(s) of the Church.  But, you think it's a better explanation to assume Brigham Young was commanded to do this...despite how it turned out and despite the mental gymnastics necessary for your argument to hold up?  But Occam's Razor doesn't apply here.

 

I am not convinced that is even the most likely explanation. There are other explanations. Maybe Brigham thought being an apostle would be good for his sons and did not think of leadership possibilities. Maybe he wanted to spread apostleship around in general outside the Twelve and started with his own family.

 

As to how it turned out....well, Jesus had better judgement and picked a much bigger stinker as an apostle.

[ttribe]

I am not convinced that is even the most likely explanation. There are other explanations. Maybe Brigham thought being an apostle would be good for his sons and did not think of leadership possibilities. Maybe he wanted to spread apostleship around in general outside the Twelve and started with his own family.

 

As to how it turned out....well, Jesus had better judgement and picked a much bigger stinker as an apostle.

 

I realize, you're not convinced it was the most likely explanation; hence, the ongoing conversation.  The "most likely" comment was my editorializing.  Nevertheless, how do these other theories comport with your "God commanded it..." one?  Or, are these additional alternatives you are conjuring up with no evidence?

[The Nehor]

I realize, you're not convinced it was the most likely explanation; hence, the ongoing conversation.  The "most likely" comment was my editorializing.  Nevertheless, how do these other theories comport with your "God commanded it..." one?  Or, are these additional alternatives you are conjuring up with no evidence?

I think they stack up really well against the theory in the OP because the evidence does not convince me that Brigham was a Machiavellian political climber. When your theory is based on a generally good guy doing bad things I think it is pretty weak.

[ttribe]

I think they stack up really well against the theory in the OP because the evidence does not convince me that Brigham was a Machiavellian political climber. When your theory is based on a generally good guy doing bad things I think it is pretty weak.

 

Who said anything about Brigham Young being "a Machiavellian political climber" or doing "bad things?"  Whether ordaining his sons at such a young age is "bad" or "good" is not necessarily relevant to the analysis of whether he desired and intended for his sons to succeed him.

[ALarson]

It's also interesting that Brigham allowed John to receive his endowment at the age of 11 years.  Does anyone know if there were others who received their endowment at such a young age?

 

On November 22, 1855, at the tender age of eleven, John Willard Young received his Endowment and was ordained an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ by the hand of his prophet father.  The ordination, which was kept secret from the other members of the church’s First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, was eventually announced for the first time to church leaders in February of 1864, roughly eight years after John Willard’s original ordination.  On that occasion, President Brigham Young ordained John Willard’s two older brothers, Joseph Angell and Brigham Jr., to be apostles as well, and set all three of his sons apart to be “Assistant Counselors to the President.”

 

Edited September 29, 2015 by ALarson

[Duncan]

It's also interesting that Brigham allowed John to receive his endowment at the age of 11 years.  Does anyone know if there were others who received their endowment at such a young age?

 

 

Correct me if I a wrong but didn't a young Joseph F. Smith receive his endowment at 16, just prior to going on a mission to Hawaii?

[cinepro]

 

What I don't understand is how Brigham sent John tithing money to live on after he left Utah and the church.  

 

From the article, it doesn't sound like John ever left the Church.  It notes that even in his older years (after BY had died and his business ventures had failed and the Church wouldn't send him any more money), he lived a life of poverty in the east but would still attend a local branch and talk about how he was an Apostle.

 

And to be fair, the money that BY sent him was more of a stipend.

[cinepro]

It's also interesting that Brigham allowed John to receive his endowment at the age of 11 years.  Does anyone know if there were others who received their endowment at such a young age?

 

I don't know if "allowed" would be the right word.  I would probably go with "encouraged" (especially since the article and his later life would indicate that John wasn't an especially spiritual person).

[ALarson]

Correct me if I a wrong but didn't a young Joseph F. Smith receive his endowment at 16, just prior to going on a mission to Hawaii?

Yes, I remember reading that.  But he was serving a mission.  Why would Brigham Young approve of an 11 year old receiving their endowment?  Was it just Brigham and his son who were present for this?  All the secrecy is a bit odd, but I'm sure Brigham felt he had his reasons for doing this.

 

This is interesting too:

The ordination of Brigham Young’s children to the Holy Apostleship was met with surprise and timid acceptance.  Apostle Wilford Woordruff recorded the occasion with the following in his diary:

 

President Young said I am going to tell you something that I have never before mentioned to any other person.  I have ordained my sons Joseph A., Brigham & John W. Apostles and my Counselors.  Have you any objections?  J. Taylor & G.A. Smith said they had not, that it was his own affair & they considered it under his own direction.[5]

 

And though some church leaders were aware of the ordination of Brigham Young’s children as apostles, the church in general was kept in the dark.  President Young had instructed members of the Quorum of the Twelve to “make a record of it, but…not tell anyone not present about the event.”[6]   It wasn’t until April of 1873, nearly eighteen years after being ordained by his father, that John Willard, along with his brothers, were publicly sustained as “Prophets, Seers and Revelators” and as Assistant Counselors in General Conference (Brigham, Jr. had been sustained to the Quorum of the Twelve in the October General Conference of 1868)

 

 

[ALarson]

I don't know if "allowed" would be the right word.  I would probably go with "encouraged" (especially since the article and his later life would indicate that John wasn't an especially spiritual person).

Who approved of John receiving his endowment if not Brigham?  Maybe "allowed" is the wrong word, so how about "approved".  Who do you think accompanied John when he received his endowment?  I wonder who performed it if it was all done in "secret".  

[ALarson]

From the article, it doesn't sound like John ever left the Church.  It notes that even in his older years (after BY had died and his business ventures had failed and the Church wouldn't send him any more money), he lived a life of poverty in the east but would still attend a local branch and talk about how he was an Apostle.

If you read more about this, John was not very active in the church at the very least.  Have you studied his history with polygamy?  He was an interesting guy, that's for sure.

 

Also, I think there are some quotes regarding Brigham sending John tithing money and other church leaders not being happy about that, but I'd need to search for them.

Edited September 29, 2015 by ALarson

[ttribe]

From the article, it doesn't sound like John ever left the Church.  It notes that even in his older years (after BY had died and his business ventures had failed and the Church wouldn't send him any more money), he lived a life of poverty in the east but would still attend a local branch and talk about how he was an Apostle.

 

And to be fair, the money that BY sent him was more of a stipend.

 

Ouch...but funny.

Edited September 29, 2015 by ttribe

[The Nehor]

From the article, it doesn't sound like John ever left the Church.  It notes that even in his older years (after BY had died and his business ventures had failed and the Church wouldn't send him any more money), he lived a life of poverty in the east but would still attend a local branch and talk about how he was an Apostle.

 

And to be fair, the money that BY sent him was more of a stipend.

 

Okay, that made me laugh.

[ALarson]

--

Edited September 29, 2015 by ALarson

[ttribe]

This is interesting to read:

[edited for privacy's sake]

 

A login to someone's online Outlook email account?  I'm sure that would be an interesting read...if I could login and peruse the totality of the available email.

Edited September 29, 2015 by ttribe

[Duncan]

 

Yes, I remember reading that.  But he was serving a mission.  Why would Brigham Young approve of an 11 year old receiving their endowment?  Was it just Brigham and his son who were present for this?  All the secrecy is a bit odd, but I'm sure Brigham felt he had his reasons for doing this.

 

This is interesting too:

 

 

 

i don't know but maybe he had plans that obviously never materialized? or someone found out about it and was like um.........but there is more to this whole saga then the written documents affords us, which is too bad

[ALarson]

A login to someone's online Outlook email account?  I'm sure that would be an interesting read...if I could login and peruse the totality of the available email.

I got that from someone who sent it....I'll try to find the link without this.  Thanks.

[Senator]

Crap!

 

Another little tidbit of church history that:

 

a) I hadn't known about till this thread

b) am a bit bothered by

c) am to feel ashamed that I am bothered by it because of my failings to not know of it previously.