HappyJackWagon Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) We know Martin Harris acted as scribe for the entire 116 lost pages of manuscript from April-June 1828. Joseph then loses the ability to translate for a season after the plates and U&T are taken away. Then in winter 1828-29 (Joseph Smith Papers) or Feb/March 1829 (FAIR), Emma acted as scribe as joseph translated "sporadically". April 7 Oliver begins acting as scribe for Joseph and they complete the manuscript by early summer. Emma is said to have assisted again during the completion of the manuscript. So we know Oliver is the principle scribe for the entire BoM that we currently have (discounting the lost 116 pages) Do we have any detail about the portion Emma assisted with? Do we know how much she and Joseph accomplished while she served as scribe? Edited August 21, 2015 by HappyJackWagon
Nevo Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Do we have any detail about the portion Emma assisted with? Do we know how much she and Joseph accomplished while she served as scribe? Here's what the Joseph Smith Papers site says: "Rather than retranslating the lost pages, JS was directed to finish “the remainder of the work” and apparently picked up where he and Harris had stopped, in the book of Mosiah. Although Emma Smith, JS’s brother Samuel Smith, and possibly others served as scribes for JS over the next several months, progress was slow and sporadic." (http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/book-of-mormon-manuscript-excerpt-circa-june-1829-1-nephi-22b-318a) So Emma presumably assisted with the early part of the Book of Mosiah. Her involvement doesn't appear to have been extensive. Joseph said in his 1832 history that "my wife had writen some for me to translate and also my Brothr Samuel H Smith but we had become reduced in property and my wives father was about to turn me out of doores." In 1856, Emma recounted: “When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made any mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. Even the word Sarah he could not pronounce at first, but had to spell it, and I would pronounce it for him. When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation, and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered, ‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘Oh! [i didn’t know.] I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such a limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls" (Edmund C. Briggs, "A Visit to Nauvoo in 1856," Journal of History [Jan. 1916], 454). However, the name "Sarah" only appears once in the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi 8:2. And Jerusalem's walls are only mentioned in 1 Nephi 4. 4
HappyJackWagon Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) Here's what the Joseph Smith Papers site says: "Rather than retranslating the lost pages, JS was directed to finish “the remainder of the work” and apparently picked up where he and Harris had stopped, in the book of Mosiah. Although Emma Smith, JS’s brother Samuel Smith, and possibly others served as scribes for JS over the next several months, progress was slow and sporadic." (http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/book-of-mormon-manuscript-excerpt-circa-june-1829-1-nephi-22b-318a) So Emma presumably assisted with the early part of the Book of Mosiah. Her involvement doesn't appear to have been extensive. Joseph said in his 1832 history that "my wife had writen some for me to translate and also my Brothr Samuel H Smith but we had become reduced in property and my wives father was about to turn me out of doores." In 1856, Emma recounted: “When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made any mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. Even the word Sarah he could not pronounce at first, but had to spell it, and I would pronounce it for him. Thanks. Emma's account seems to indicate that Joseph had a revelatory vision as he translated; he saw the words directly and reported what he saw. Others have proposed that the translation was less mechanical and more of a revelation wherein he would dictate thoughts and principles within the stories. This is used often times to dismiss anachronisms. Considering Emma's quote that would indicate Joseph saw the words he should dictate, do we have room to think of the translation as a more vague revelation as opposed to exact words appearing to be "translated"? For me the exact words methodology seems less likely when I consider 1- the unprecedented method of seeing the words and 2- the errors (not counting punctuation), A lot seems to rest on Emma's testimony of the process even though she didn't participate a great deal in the translation. Edited August 21, 2015 by HappyJackWagon
ALarson Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) Here are a couple of other quotes from Emma regarding the translation: Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he [my husband] used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color. In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us. Edited August 21, 2015 by ALarson
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Here's what the Joseph Smith Papers site says: "Rather than retranslating the lost pages, JS was directed to finish “the remainder of the work” and apparently picked up where he and Harris had stopped, in the book of Mosiah. Although Emma Smith, JS’s brother Samuel Smith, and possibly others served as scribes for JS over the next several months, progress was slow and sporadic." (http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/book-of-mormon-manuscript-excerpt-circa-june-1829-1-nephi-22b-318a) So Emma presumably assisted with the early part of the Book of Mosiah. Her involvement doesn't appear to have been extensive. Joseph said in his 1832 history that "my wife had writen some for me to translate and also my Brothr Samuel H Smith but we had become reduced in property and my wives father was about to turn me out of doores." In 1856, Emma recounted: “When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made any mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. Even the word Sarah he could not pronounce at first, but had to spell it, and I would pronounce it for him. When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation, and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered, ‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘Oh! [i didn’t know.] I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such a limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls" (Edmund C. Briggs, "A Visit to Nauvoo in 1856," Journal of History [Jan. 1916], 454). However, the name "Sarah" only appears once in the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi 8:2. And Jerusalem's walls are only mentioned in 1 Nephi 4.I like what you tried to do there.
strappinglad Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 The Book of Mormon on audio tape runs about 26 hours. If we assume a scribal session lasted 2 hours and took 5 times longer to read and record than the audio tape , that is not far out from the actual translation( and I use that term with trepidation) time of a few months. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) ............................................................So Emma presumably assisted with the early part of the Book of Mosiah. Her involvement doesn't appear to have been extensive. Joseph said in his 1832 history that "my wife had writen some for me to translate and also my Brothr Samuel H Smith but we had become reduced in property and my wives father was about to turn me out of doores." In 1856, Emma recounted: “When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made any mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. Even the word Sarah he could not pronounce at first, but had to spell it, and I would pronounce it for him. When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation, and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered, ‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘Oh! [i didn’t know.] I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such a limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls" (Edmund C. Briggs, "A Visit to Nauvoo in 1856," Journal of History [Jan. 1916], 454). However, the name "Sarah" only appears once in the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi 8:2. And Jerusalem's walls are only mentioned in 1 Nephi 4. I suspect that, all those years later, Emma misremembered Sarah for Sariah, which is also in 1 Nephi 5, very close to the "walls" in 1 Nephi 4. This is because Joseph had already begun copying characters from the plates before he met Martin Harris. Thus, when he sent Harris to see some learned men (Mitchill and Anthon), he had already copied some characters and had made a translation of them (JS H 1:62-65). Who helped him with that translation? Very likely his wife, and it is not odd that it would be taken from an early part of the plates. One might also note that Sariah is in the heading to 1 Nephi, where she might first have encountered it as part of that initial translation (which we do not have today). David Whitmer likewise said “that [Joseph] didn’t even know that Jerusalem was a walled city, and he was utterly unable to pronounce many of the names which the magic power of the Urim and Thummim revealed, and therefore spelled them out in syllables, and the more erudite scribe put them together." “The Golden Tables,” The Chicago Times, 20 (Saturday Morning, August 7, 1875), p. 1, col. 3, taken from an article in the Omaha Herald. Whitmer may ultimately have taken such details from Oliver (his brother-in-law) or from Emma, but we don't actually known whom to credit. Edited August 22, 2015 by Robert F. Smith 1
jkwilliams Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 I like what you tried to do there. What was he trying to do there?
bluebell Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 What was he trying to do there? He was pointing out a contradiction. The information says that Emma presumably didn't help with the translation until Mosiah, but then Emma herself talks about helping to transcribe words that onlyoccurred before Mosiah.
jkwilliams Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 He was pointing out a contradiction. The information says that Emma presumably didn't help with the translation until Mosiah, but then Emma herself talks about helping to transcribe words that onlyoccurred before Mosiah. Yes, it is a contradiction. He seemed to be suggesting there was something nefarious about pointing it out. To me, it just means we don't really know with certainty when Emma acted as scribe. It's hardly a testimony-shaking fact.
canard78 Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 I suspect that, all those years later, Emma misremembered Sarah for Sariah, which is also in 1 Nephi 5, very close to the "walls" in 1 Nephi 4. This is because Joseph had already begun copying characters from the plates before he met Martin Harris. Thus, when he sent Harris to see some learned men (Mitchill and Anthon), he had already copied some characters and had made a translation of them (JS H 1:62-65). Who helped him with that translation? Very likely his wife, and it is not odd that it would be taken from an early part of the plates. One might also note that Sariah is in the heading to 1 Nephi, where she might first have encountered it as part of that initial translation (which we do not have today). David Whitmer likewise said “that [Joseph] didn’t even know that Jerusalem was a walled city, and he was utterly unable to pronounce many of the names which the magic power of the Urim and Thummim revealed, and therefore spelled them out in syllables, and the more erudite scribe put them together." “The Golden Tables,” The Chicago Times, 20 (Saturday Morning, August 7, 1875), p. 1, col. 3, taken from an article in the Omaha Herald. Whitmer may ultimately have taken such details from Oliver (his brother-in-law) or from Emma, but we don't actually known whom to credit. How likely is it that both David Whitmer and Emma were in the room at the time that this particular piece of uncertainty is supposed to have been voiced? Isn't it simply more likely that Whitmer had read what Emma said and was repeating it?
bluebell Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Yes, it is a contradiction. He seemed to be suggesting there was something nefarious about pointing it out. To me, it just means we don't really know with certainty when Emma acted as scribe. It's hardly a testimony-shaking fact. That's my view as well.
filovirus Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosiah_priority
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 He was pointing out a contradiction. The information says that Emma presumably didn't help with the translation until Mosiah, but then Emma herself talks about helping to transcribe words that onlyoccurred before Mosiah.With the intended inference being she made that part of the story up, and if she made that part up what else did she lie about?
jkwilliams Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 With the intended inference being she made that part of the story up, and if she made that part up what else did she lie about? That is a bizarre conclusion, especially since the person who said it was Nevo.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 That is a bizarre conclusion, especially since the person who said it was Nevo. I don't know Nevo that well, so you are probably right, and I am just defensive from the last 30 hours. Maybe I should take a sabbatical.
jkwilliams Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 I don't know Nevo that well, so you are probably right, and I am just defensive from the last 30 hours. Maybe I should take a sabbatical. Maybe I should.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 How likely is it that both David Whitmer and Emma were in the room at the time that this particular piece of uncertainty is supposed to have been voiced? Isn't it simply more likely that Whitmer had read what Emma said and was repeating it?We don't know. Both tell the same story, which they may have heard from the scribe who experienced it directly. They need not have been in the same room at the same time. Decades later, Emma may have remembered the event with herself as scribe (people often get confused in this way), even though she was not the scribe of the Original MS when the "walls" were translated (unknown scribe x). That is why I mention the earlier event of Joseph drawing off some characters and translating them before Martin came along -- a document we do not have today -- an occasion when Emma may have been the scribe. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 With the intended inference being she made that part of the story up, and if she made that part up what else did she lie about?Well, we know she lied about polygamy, but this is understandable. On the Book of Mormon scribal experience, she may have told the truth or lied. We just don't know. 2
cinepro Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) I recommend consulting Eldon Watson's interesting Book of Mormon translation timeline, which has good info on this subject: http://www.eldenwatson.net/BoM.htm 1 Nephi 4 is estimated to have been translated at the Whitmer cabin, and the portion we have is written by an unknown scribe (possibly one of the Whitmer brothers?). But other than deciphering the identity of the scribe for a particular section, it is impossible to know with certainty who may or may not have been in the room when a particular portion was translated. Edited August 23, 2015 by cinepro 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Well, we know she lied about polygamy, but this is understandable. On the Book of Mormon scribal experience, she may have told the truth or lied. We just don't know.I know no such thing. It is very much still up for debate- which I don't want to have. Polygamy debates are a pointless waste of time.
JulieM Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) I know no such thing. It is very much still up for debate- which I don't want to have. Polygamy debates are a pointless waste of time.So do you believe that Joseph didn't practice polygamy? Or is that not the lying about polygamy by Emma that you're referring to? (I don't want to debate that but just clarifying). Edited August 23, 2015 by JulieM
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 So do you believe that Joseph didn't practice polygamy? Or is that not the lying about polygamy by Emma that you're referring to? (I don't want to debate that but just clarifying).I don't know whether or not he did- thus I don't know whether or not Emma lied. I think it is presumptuous to declare one way or the other as fact.
cinepro Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 I know no such thing. It is very much still up for debate- which I don't want to have. Polygamy debates are a pointless waste of time. If you have a good reason for doubting that Joseph Smith actually practiced polygamy, then I would consider such a discussion a very good use of time, because a great many millions of people (including those who have studied the subject the most and those who were closest to him, Emma notwithstanding) are in grave error. 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 If you have a good reason for doubting that Joseph Smith actually practiced polygamy, then I would consider such a discussion a very good use of time, because a great many millions of people (including those who have studied the subject the most and those who were closest to him, Emma notwithstanding) are in grave error.The debate has been had many times. The evidence for both positions is out there. Arguing about it for the 135,627,496,123,567,954 time won't accomplish anything.
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