The Difficulties Of Discussing Religion

[stemelbow]

Over the years I've seen a lot of hurt feelings when discussing Mormonism as we do. I'm not sure I quite understand why or what's happening to most in this, but it's all pretty unfortunate. You'll hear of people feeling treated very poorly by their family if they leave, for instance. it's a shame and shouldn't happen. I think everyone agrees but it does.

Some few years ago I was on a business trip with my manager, who is LDS. We discussed the topic of religion and he learned, at that time, I was pretty unorthodox. the conversation went well, I think. But I sensed from that time forth something was wrong--something felt broken between us. So I asked him what the problem was. He wasn't sure at first but as we talked he and I realized he felt differently about me because of my changed beliefs. You see his wife's sister had left the Church and had relentlessly, in his mind, threw problems in his and his wife's face regarding the Church. so much so, they both started distancing themselves from her. In their mind, she initiated the problems between them not because she left but because she left and obstinately felt it was her duty to convince them of their problems. He was actually a pretty open and accepting person, but the constancy of her complaints really wore on him. When he heard of my views (like supporting SSM for instance) he linked me in some way with his sister-in-law. I was somehow thrown into the same category. Just recognizing that helped both of us and our relationship today is great--he understands me, I understand him.

Okay, so the story continues. My wife and I also had a couple of friends (married couple) who had left the church. they did so quietly at first but then became more and more vocal. We were pretty close to them during the whole ordeal, though, so we heard their complaints from before they left, while they were still active holding callings and all, to the point where they gradually stopped attending and then making it official by removing names. They trusted us because we too felt pretty open about issues we had with the Church. Staying close my wife and the woman who left talked about family and friends and their reactions. She certainly felt mistreated. She complained about a sister who she was close to and her husband, and how, in her mind they were unwilling to listen to her and saw her as problematic around their kids and all that.

Well, it turned out that this woman was my old bosses sister-in-law. She saw the problem as theirs, as in they were unwilling to accept an apostate around. While they saw the problem as hers in that she was unwilling to leave them to their beliefs without constant haranguing. In her mind, as it was, she was so sweet and nice to them, in so much that she never troubled them about religion at all.

I'm sure this story could be repeated thousands of times these days. I mean honestly it doesn't take any issue with beliefs or faith to see something like that happen. But I think it tells us exactly the problems we face when discussing this stuff. I see hurt feelings abounding here, sometimes. The littlest of things, it seems can be taken as personal assaults. Who am I to judge that? But I do. In my mind, I prefer a "we're all in this together" approach. I certainly see that from time to time. I think that we cavalierly dismiss each other, sometimes because he/she, in our own mind's eye, falls into a category we don't like. I see things like "apologist" and "TMB" thrown around as if they are fighting words. I've seen "critic" and "anti-Mormon" used to demean others. Truth is, we're all apologists and all critics. We have things/positions we defend and positions we oppose. In addition we're all just living in the world, trying to make the most of our experience, as we hold out hope we learn the better way.

it's time we start respecting each other a little more. I'm going to try. I think it's so important that I fear I won't learn the better way if I don't get better at this.

I welcome you to join me.

[jkwilliams]

Thanks for that post. I'm convinced that much of the hurt and anger comes from simple misunderstanding of each other. Yesterday I received a message from someone who told me that I was mocking her sacred beliefs and dragging the church through the mud, so she wanted to thank me for teaching her that spending time with people like me was a waste of her God-given time and talents. I have no idea what I said that she found so horrible and offensive, but it's clear that we both saw our interaction quite differently. Rather than get angry about it, I just try to figure out what went wrong and how I can do better going forward. 

 

The one thing I've learned from leaving the church is that, if you want to salvage personal relationships, put the relationship first, not your differences. So what if you don't share the same religious beliefs anymore? Surely, there is more to our friendships than shared faith, or at least their should be.

[HappyJackWagon]

I think we too often view disagreements of belief as disrespect.

 

"If you don't agree with my political or religious beliefs then you're calling me an idiot, a fool, a...whatever. You clearly don't respect me or my views."

 

This is a toxic mindset that is easy to fall into. I do it often. I need to remind myself that when someone seems to be doing this to me I'm probably doing the same to them.

[The Nehor]

A little self-awareness goes a long way. Pity it is in such short supply.

[jkwilliams]

A little self-awareness goes a long way. Pity it is in such short supply.

 

Yep. Self-awareness requires introspection, and most of us humans don't like to do that.

[Tacenda]

I think as the church opens up about things in history that were not front and center but now are because of the internet age, it will bring people together.  The faithful LDS will see the so-called anti lie become a truth and understand how the unbeliever came to be, if that is indeed how they came to unbelief.  The church now has opened a life line to those of us that stumbled/fell because of unknown history, created an avenue for discussion where the unbeliever can show the believer it's truth.  After that it's up to them, how they will go about it.  Hopefully both sides will respect the other's belief and have some compassion.  And so grateful the church has discussed in GC that we are to love them back to the church or simply just love them.  And Pres. Uchtdorf mentioning things in history that some leaders got wrong!  How Christ like and honest.  This and many other things are what keep me from bolting.  I can see how those that once became disaffected came back around.  The church is opening that door I believe or I just have the best bishop and ward ever.  Even though there are a few that wonder about me.     

 

I think open dialogue is crucial and how we say or use our words too.  To our friends and family, neighbors or co workers.  We all need to be careful in how we go about it.  But there's also a reason that politics & religion etc. are topics best not discussed unless, you can retain that fine line.  They're both sensitive subjects! 

 

 

The two great commandments that contain the whole law of God are:

1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;
2. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

And one of them, a doctor of the Law, putting him to the test, asked him, "Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?" Jesus said to him, "'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.' This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:35-40)

[Ahab]

I love everybody and I treat everybody on this planet as my spritual brother and sister. And that involves a little wrestling sometimes, rather than doing nothing but hugging and praising and singing kumbaya (sp?) together as if everything is always fine and dandy and we always agree with each other.

We just don't agree sometimes, but that doesn't mean we don't love each other.

So sometimes the problem is in thinking or acting as if we should always agree, when actually there are times when we shouldn't.

We can't always have things our own way. We have a Father to please and if we don't please him we are in for big trouble. So sometimes we just try to warn each other, and at other times we just want to wrestle.

[The Nehor]

I had a friend and the main point of our friendship was a shared interest in some things about history and the LDS faith. He apostasized and we stopped being friends. Not because I dislike him but because we lost what made us friends. When we got together he would do nothing but explain how wrong we were and I still was because that is all we talked about before. I chose to stop interacting with him because there was nothing left to share. From his point of view it might look like I started shunning him.

[thesometimesaint]

Disagreeing is fine, becoming disagreeable, not so much.

[jkwilliams]

I had a friend and the main point of our friendship was a shared interest in some things about history and the LDS faith. He apostasized and we stopped being friends. Not because I dislike him but because we lost what made us friends. When we got together he would do nothing but explain how wrong we were and I still was because that is all we talked about before. I chose to stop interacting with him because there was nothing left to share. From his point of view it might look like I started shunning him.

 

That's what I was talking about. If religion is all you have in common, you don't really have much of a relationship. Relationships that are important to us likely are based on more than mere shared belief.

[The Nehor]

That's what I was talking about. If religion is all you have in common, you don't really have much of a relationship. Relationships that are important to us likely are based on more than mere shared belief.

I am not sure. I have friends I care about where that is the bulk of the relationship. Not really my closest friends but the friendship is real. If religion ceased to be a commonality it would be like running into an old school friend. Can be fun to catch up but most likely our interests have changed since then and there may not be enough to rekindle a friendship.

[Ahab]

Religion is a way of life, so when you don't have that way in common then you each have a different way of life. And that is sometimes a HUGE difference! What else might you have in common other than very casual recreational relationships?

[The Nehor]

What else might you have in common other than very casual recreational relationships?

Shared parenthood, a shared love of a certain form of media, common athletic interests, shared trials in life, shared ambitions and hope, all much more then casual recreation.

[jkwilliams]

I am not sure. I have friends I care about where that is the bulk of the relationship. Not really my closest friends but the friendship is real. If religion ceased to be a commonality it would be like running into an old school friend. Can be fun to catch up but most likely our interests have changed since then and there may not be enough to rekindle a friendship.

 

Yep. I've lost friends I care about because of my loss of belief in the church, and it was painful to realize that they didn't value my friendship the same way I valued theirs. I'm not saying it was their fault, just that the relationship wasn't as deep as I had thought. I also have friends whose main interaction with me is challenging me on my apostate beliefs, and we have fun arguing. But that's different.

[jkwilliams]

Religion is a way of life, so when you don't have that way in common then you each have a different way of life. And that is sometimes a HUGE difference! What else might you have in common other than very casual recreational relationships?

 

When I walked away from the church, religious difference caused a lot of conflict in my marriage. It wasn't until we both decided that there were things in the marriage that we valued that had nothing to do with religious belief: love, companionship, shared goals, similar outlooks, intimacy, friendship, and a host of other things. When we stopped making our religious differences the focus of everything, we were able to heal the rifts in our marriage.

[Jeanne]

That's what I was talking about. If religion is all you have in common, you don't really have much of a relationship. Relationships that are important to us likely are based on more than mere shared belief.

This is why I always wonder..in marriage, if you were to take away religion for even a day..would you still be friends with your spouse?  Would you have anything to talk about or even know the person anymore?  In my opinion, it is a good reason for missionaries to not hurry into marriage just because it is the best "thing to do"..but to really build a relationship that sustains itself in love and compatibility outside of church doors.

[jkwilliams]

This is why I always wonder..in marriage, if you were to take away religion for even a day..would you still be friends with your spouse?  Would you have anything to talk about or even know the person anymore?  In my opinion, it is a good reason for missionaries to not hurry into marriage just because it is the best "thing to do"..but to really build a relationship that sustains itself in love and compatibility outside of church doors.

 

That was the big question for us, and fortunately, we both agreed there was much more to our marriage than religion.

[thesometimesaint]

This is why I always wonder..in marriage, if you were to take away religion for even a day..would you still be friends with your spouse?  Would you have anything to talk about or even know the person anymore?  In my opinion, it is a good reason for missionaries to not hurry into marriage just because it is the best "thing to do"..but to really build a relationship that sustains itself in love and compatibility outside of church doors.

 

While shared faith can't be the only thing that holds a marriage together. It does makes a good marriage better. Tellingly mixed faith marriages don't have a good track record, statistically speaking. 

[jkwilliams]

While shared faith can't be the only thing that holds a marriage together. It does makes a good marriage better. Tellingly mixed faith marriages don't have a good track record, statistically speaking. 

 

My wife and I agree that, at least in some ways, our marriage is stronger now because we've had to fight for it. Obviously, that's not the case with everyone.

[thesometimesaint]

My wife and I agree that, at least in some ways, our marriage is stronger now because we've had to fight for it. Obviously, that's not the case with everyone.

 

Statistics are kinda funny. Having just two children is not enough for replacement, and having three is too many. But having 2.3 children while statistically is enough is a physical impossibility.

[jkwilliams]

Statistics are kinda funny. Having just two children is not enough for replacement, and having three is too many. But having 2.3 children while statistically is enough is a physical impossibility.

 

I dunno. Sometimes when your kid does something stupid, you think he or she has .3 of a brain.

 

Seriously, though, a mixed-faith marriage just adds one more level of complexity to the equation. Marriage is hard enough just trying to have two separate people work together towards common goals. When religion is a difference, it can be harder to identify those common goals. 

[thesometimesaint]

I dunno. Sometimes when your kid does something stupid, you think he or she has .3 of a brain.

 

Seriously, though, a mixed-faith marriage just adds one more level of complexity to the equation. Marriage is hard enough just trying to have two separate people work together towards common goals. When religion is a difference, it can be harder to identify those common goals. 

 

Agreed.

[jkwilliams]

Agreed.

 

Like I said, if you can get through it, it can make a marriage stronger, but I sure wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

[Mystery Meat]

Short time, no post.

 

Quickly: I think there is plenty of blame to go around. No one side is innocent.

 

In my family, one of my siblings feels isolated from the rest because the rest of us are TBM. At family get together's we talk a lot about the Church, gospel, culture, etc. It is a large part of our lives. She feels completely out of place now. She cannot reasonably expect us to stop talking about it when she is around. At the same time, not being a member of the Church and talking about why she thinks the church is so destructive is a large part of her life. She enjoys educating people about why she left and why she hates the church. It is as big a part of her life as being a member is mine. If I had kids and she were to bring it up around them, I would kindly ask her to stop because I think her words are poison. If she didn't I would probably cut her off. On the other hand, she things us talking about the gospel around her kids is harmful. She should have the right to cut us off if she thinks it is that destructive.

 

In other words, it is a messy situation with no good answers.

[Ahab]

When I walked away from the church, religious difference caused a lot of conflict in my marriage. It wasn't until we both decided that there were things in the marriage that we valued that had nothing to do with religious belief: love, companionship, shared goals, similar outlooks, intimacy, friendship, and a host of other things. When we stopped making our religious differences the focus of everything, we were able to heal the rifts in our marriage.

There is more to religion as a way of life than you seem to realize. It's not just about Church stuff, whatever Church it would be. Religion includes feelings and thoughts about everyday life situations, feelings and thoughts themselves. Religion is the lens we look through to see life and reality as it is.

You didn't mention anything outside of religion or a person's religious perspective in that list of things you just gave. You just showed that you have a very narrow view of what a religiob or religious perspective involves.