The Difficulties Of Discussing Religion

[jkwilliams]

There is more to religion as a way of life than you seem to realize. It's not just about Church stuff, whatever Church it would be. Religion includes feelings and thoughts about everyday life situations, feelings and thoughts themselves. Religion is the lens we look through to see life and reality as it is.

You didn't mention anything outside of religion or a person's religious perspective in that list of things you just gave. You just showed that you have a very narrow view of what a religiob or religious perspective involves.

 

I think you misunderstand. Religion, especially the LDS church, is a way of life and a worldview. When you no longer have that in common, it's difficult. But those other things I mentioned can and do exist in a marriage, even after the religious unity is disrupted. If my losing faith had screwed up all those parts of my marriage, I would probably be divorced. We stuck with each other, and neither of us has ever regretted it.

[gclayjr]

As Paul wrote "We see through a glass darkly". When we tell some one about ourselves we add information to the limited information they have, which may reaffirm that which some one respected in you, or maybe give them pause to think that maybe you aren't who they thought you were. Maybe the new information tells them that their POSITIVE assumptions may be wrong.

 

I used to go to computer shows with one of my project team leaders. I never was a "Clothes horse", and he dressed well and presented himself well. Invariably the vendors in various booths assumed he was the boss, and I was the subordinate and targeted their presentation to him. I found this both humorous and useful. Often, I found it to my advantage not to reveal that I was the decision maker that they would have to convince to purchase their product.

 

I think one of the things that is disappearing in our on-line social networking is the understanding of the propriety of being careful to whom we reveal personal information or personal beliefs. I think the havoc  caused by people revealing and opining anything and everything on FaceBook or Twitter or some other venue has lead to destroyed lives.

 

However, when you decide to reveal something, or opine on something to someone, you will bear the consequences of that whether carefully thought out or impulsively  stated. Those are just the facts of life.

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

[Ahab]

I think you misunderstand. Religion, especially the LDS church, is a way of life and a worldview. When you no longer have that in common, it's difficult. But those other things I mentioned can and do exist in a marriage, even after the religious unity is disrupted. If my losing faith had screwed up all those parts of my marriage, I would probably be divorced. We stuck with each other, and neither of us has ever regretted it.

My point was that your life now and your wife's life now still has something to do with each of your religious beliefs. You were saying those things you mentioned have nothing to do with religious belief, but really they do, whatever you or your wife believe.

And I'm glad you're both sticking together in your marriage, too. You don't agree on everything, but most other mortals who are married don't agree on everything either. As time goes on I hope you will both come to agree more and more with each other and with our common Father in heaven.

[jkwilliams]

My point was that your life now and your wife's life now still has something to do with each of your religious beliefs. You were saying those things you mentioned have nothing to do with religious belief, but really they do, whatever you or your wife believe.

And I'm glad you're both sticking together in your marriage, too. You don't agree on everything, but most other mortals who are married don't agree on everything either. As time goes on I hope you will both come to agree more and more with each other and with our common Father in heaven.

 

What I meant is that those parts of our marriage do not depend on our having common religious beliefs. 

[Bobbieaware]

Over the years I've seen a lot of hurt feelings when discussing Mormonism as we do. I'm not sure I quite understand why or what's happening to most in this, but it's all pretty unfortunate. You'll hear of people feeling treated very poorly by their family if they leave, for instance. it's a shame and shouldn't happen. I think everyone agrees but it does.Some few years ago I was on a business trip with my manager, who is LDS. We discussed the topic of religion and he learned, at that time, I was pretty unorthodox. the conversation went well, I think. But I sensed from that time forth something was wrong--something felt broken between us. So I asked him what the problem was. He wasn't sure at first but as we talked he and I realized he felt differently about me because of my changed beliefs. You see his wife's sister had left the Church and had relentlessly, in his mind, threw problems in his and his wife's face regarding the Church. so much so, they both started distancing themselves from her. In their mind, she initiated the problems between them not because she left but because she left and obstinately felt it was her duty to convince them of their problems. He was actually a pretty open and accepting person, but the constancy of her complaints really wore on him. When he heard of my views (like supporting SSM for instance) he linked me in some way with his sister-in-law. I was somehow thrown into the same category. Just recognizing that helped both of us and our relationship today is great--he understands me, I understand him.Okay, so the story continues. My wife and I also had a couple of friends (married couple) who had left the church. they did so quietly at first but then became more and more vocal. We were pretty close to them during the whole ordeal, though, so we heard their complaints from before they left, while they were still active holding callings and all, to the point where they gradually stopped attending and then making it official by removing names. They trusted us because we too felt pretty open about issues we had with the Church. Staying close my wife and the woman who left talked about family and friends and their reactions. She certainly felt mistreated. She complained about a sister who she was close to and her husband, and how, in her mind they were unwilling to listen to her and saw her as problematic around their kids and all that.Well, it turned out that this woman was my old bosses sister-in-law. She saw the problem as theirs, as in they were unwilling to accept an apostate around. While they saw the problem as hers in that she was unwilling to leave them to their beliefs without constant haranguing. In her mind, as it was, she was so sweet and nice to them, in so much that she never troubled them about religion at all.I'm sure this story could be repeated thousands of times these days. I mean honestly it doesn't take any issue with beliefs or faith to see something like that happen. But I think it tells us exactly the problems we face when discussing this stuff. I see hurt feelings abounding here, sometimes. The littlest of things, it seems can be taken as personal assaults. Who am I to judge that? But I do. In my mind, I prefer a "we're all in this together" approach. I certainly see that from time to time. I think that we cavalierly dismiss each other, sometimes because he/she, in our own mind's eye, falls into a category we don't like. I see things like "apologist" and "TMB" thrown around as if they are fighting words. I've seen "critic" and "anti-Mormon" used to demean others. Truth is, we're all apologists and all critics. We have things/positions we defend and positions we oppose. In addition we're all just living in the world, trying to make the most of our experience, as we hold out hope we learn the better way.it's time we start respecting each other a little more. I'm going to try. I think it's so important that I fear I won't learn the better way if I don't get better at this.I welcome you to join me.

As some of you are aware, I had an experience on this board yesterday in which I finally got fed up trying to dialogue with some of the former believers here who have left the faith -- or nearly left the faith -- but just can't seem to leave it alone. When I hit that boiling point, at first I misunderstood what was actually going on inside my mind, and in that moment of reduced clarity I put several former believer board participants on 'ignore' because I had come to believe my discussions with them were exercises in futility and a total waste of time.

But after some reflection, I've come to realize the upset welled up because inwardly I understood the excessive amount of time I've spent on this board, both with the believing and then unbelieving, is not a good thing.. The Spirit whispers I need to be more anxiously engaged in magnifying my callings and working with people who need help and are willing to receive it. I also realize my spare time will be better spent in personal scripture study and reading the General Comference addresses. In short, thanks to my discussions with some of the former believers (they were the catalyst) I now realize my willing participation on this board, while absorbing, has taken me away from many important duties that I very much need to attend to. So the bottom line is that I'm actually angry with myself for allowing this board to become and addicting distraction in my life. So while I'm going to "unignore" those I put on "ignore," my participation here will be much curtailed.

My best wishes to all.

[stemelbow]

Thanks for that post. I'm convinced that much of the hurt and anger comes from simple misunderstanding of each other.

Totally and completely I agree with this.

Yesterday I received a message from someone who told me that I was mocking her sacred beliefs and dragging the church through the mud, so she wanted to thank me for teaching her that spending time with people like me was a waste of her God-given time and talents. I have no idea what I said that she found so horrible and offensive, but it's clear that we both saw our interaction quite differently. Rather than get angry about it, I just try to figure out what went wrong and how I can do better going forward. 

 

The one thing I've learned from leaving the church is that, if you want to salvage personal relationships, put the relationship first, not your differences. So what if you don't share the same religious beliefs anymore? Surely, there is more to our friendships than shared faith, or at least their should be.

Very much agreed. I don't know what's with me but I have a number of friends who have left the Church, as they say. There's no way I can see myself tarnishing our relationship because of their changed beliefs. They are too dear to me.

[jkwilliams]

Totally and completely I agree with this.

Very much agreed. I don't know what's with me but I have a number of friends who have left the Church, as they say. There's no way I can see myself tarnishing our relationship because of their changed beliefs. They are too dear to me.

 

Exactly. It's pretty simple: if the religious difference is more important than the friendship, you lose the friendship.

[stemelbow]

Short time, no post.

 

Quickly: I think there is plenty of blame to go around. No one side is innocent.

 

In my family, one of my siblings feels isolated from the rest because the rest of us are TBM. At family get together's we talk a lot about the Church, gospel, culture, etc. It is a large part of our lives. She feels completely out of place now. She cannot reasonably expect us to stop talking about it when she is around. At the same time, not being a member of the Church and talking about why she thinks the church is so destructive is a large part of her life. She enjoys educating people about why she left and why she hates the church. It is as big a part of her life as being a member is mine. If I had kids and she were to bring it up around them, I would kindly ask her to stop because I think her words are poison. If she didn't I would probably cut her off. On the other hand, she things us talking about the gospel around her kids is harmful. She should have the right to cut us off if she thinks it is that destructive.

 

In other words, it is a messy situation with no good answers.

Sure. Hurt feelings spring out of nowhere sometimes. You simply can't watch yourself enough to avoid all hurt feelings in the world. But we ought to try, of course.

[ALarson]

Short time, no post.

 

Quickly: I think there is plenty of blame to go around. No one side is innocent.

 

In my family, one of my siblings feels isolated from the rest because the rest of us are TBM. At family get together's we talk a lot about the Church, gospel, culture, etc. It is a large part of our lives. She feels completely out of place now. She cannot reasonably expect us to stop talking about it when she is around. At the same time, not being a member of the Church and talking about why she thinks the church is so destructive is a large part of her life. She enjoys educating people about why she left and why she hates the church. It is as big a part of her life as being a member is mine. If I had kids and she were to bring it up around them, I would kindly ask her to stop because I think her words are poison. If she didn't I would probably cut her off. On the other hand, she things us talking about the gospel around her kids is harmful. She should have the right to cut us off if she thinks it is that destructive.

 

In other words, it is a messy situation with no good answers.

I can really relate to this.  When I was not attending church for awhile, I'd get together often with close family members who were still very active (one was a Bishop).  I was never treated badly, but I did feel that I was not free to share my opinions or thoughts, although I was expected to listen to them go on and on about their opinions, thoughts or beliefs.  I was never going to share anything angry or anti, but it was like I was suddenly poison when it came to anything Mormon.  I just felt it was fear based, but maybe I'm wrong here.

 

It sounds like your sibling is more outspoken than I am though and I do understand why you'd feel like you do.  It is a tough situation and it almost has to be taken one step at a time. Emotions can be strong on both sides.  Open communication is important, but many don't want to talk about it when it does happen (at least not directly to the person struggling).

Edited August 20, 2015 by ALarson

[Ahab]

What I meant is that those parts of our marriage do not depend on our having common religious beliefs.

I'll share my point again by saying it this way: Everything you mentioned that you said had/have nothing to do with religious belief actually do have something to do with your religious beliefs, even though you're not in perfect agreement on everything involving those issues. You still have some aspects of your religious beliefs involving those things in common with each other. For some odd reason you just don't think those things show or involve religion, but they do, for both of you.

[stemelbow]

I can really relate to this.  When I was not attending church for awhile, I'd get together often with close family members who were still very active (one was a Bishop).  I was never treated badly, but I did feel that I was not free to share my opinions or thoughts, although I was expected to listen to them go on and on about their opinions, thoughts or beliefs.  I was never going to share anything angry or anti, but it was like I was suddenly poison when it came to anything Mormon.  I just felt it was fear based, but maybe I'm wrong here.

 

It sounds like your sibling is more outspoken than I am though and I do understand why you'd feel like you do.  It is a tough situation and it almost has to be taken one step at a time. Emotions can be strong on both sides.  Open communication is important, but many don't want to talk about it when it does happen (at least not directly to the person struggling).

not that this is what you're saying, but this really goes both ways. I have a childhood friend who I in recent years got back in touch with. His mom and dad left the church after he grew up, went on mission, married in the temple. He relates to me he feels the same going to talk to them. they treat him as a child, still, and won't allow his opinion to be shared when they get together. He really struggles with it, because instead of making him feel unworthy, like members may be prone to do, they make him feel stupid and useless as a person.

I can't imagine treating people I love the way some of us do. I try my best, but somehow I offend those close to me in some way, at some point. Makes me feel pretty small when I realize my own foolishness.

[jkwilliams]

I'll share my point again by saying it this way: Everything you mentioned that you said had/have nothing to do with religious belief actually do have something to do with your religious beliefs, even though you're not in perfect agreement on everything involving those issues. You still have some aspects of your religious beliefs involving those things in common with each other. For some odd reason you just don't think those things show or involve religion, but they do, for both of you.

 

I'll just repeat what I said. We don't agree on religion much at all, but we have a lot more to our marriage that is more important than our religious differences. 

[Ahab]

I can't imagine treating people I love the way some of us do. I try my best, but somehow I offend those close to me in some way, at some point. Makes me feel pretty small when I realize my own foolishness.

The more you love someone the closer you feel to them and the more likely you are to open up to them to share how you really feel and what you think, so it shouldn't surprise you when you let your true feelings and thoughts come out with those people. When you don't like something about them or what you think about what they think you will just naturally let that stuff out. And if you somehow stopped yourself from letting it come out you'd feel that you weren't as close to them if you didn't find some way to let it come out.

That's why those we love most get some of our worst thoughts and feelings. They are getting more from us, both the good and the bad.

[ALarson]

not that this is what you're saying, but this really goes both ways. I have a childhood friend who I in recent years got back in touch with. His mom and dad left the church after he grew up, went on mission, married in the temple. He relates to me he feels the same going to talk to them. they treat him as a child, still, and won't allow his opinion to be shared when they get together. He really struggles with it, because instead of making him feel unworthy, like members may be prone to do, they make him feel stupid and useless as a person.

I can't imagine treating people I love the way some of us do. I try my best, but somehow I offend those close to me in some way, at some point. Makes me feel pretty small when I realize my own foolishness.

I agree and I do understand what you're saying.  I honestly believe that few ever mean to make the other person feel unworthy or useless or not as smart.  But I think it's human nature to believe that we have figured things out and know more than anyone else (just kidding, but you get the gist, I hope).

 

And yes, that takes place from both sides.  When someone has expressed that I just need to study more, do more in depth research into the church and so on, I'm thinking "No, that's what YOU need to do!"  Funny how that works

[stemelbow]

I agree and I do understand what you're saying.  I honestly believe that few ever mean to make the other person feel unworthy or useless or not as smart.  But I think it's human nature to believe that we have figured things out and know more than anyone else (just kidding, but you get the gist, I hope).

 

And yes, that takes place from both sides.  When someone has expressed that I just need to study more, do more in depth research into the church and so on, I'm thinking "No, that's what YOU need to do!"  Funny how that works

Well said. His parents are really good nice people and I'm sure they think they are very accepting of my friend. He simply doesn't feel it. Many people who leave the Church and their family are, I'm certain, in the same place.

[stemelbow]

The more you love someone the closer you feel to them and the more likely you are to open up to them to share how you really feel and what you think, so it shouldn't surprise you when you let your true feelings and thoughts come out with those people. When you don't like something about them or what you think about what they think you will just naturally let that stuff out. And if you somehow stopped yourself from letting it come out you'd feel that you weren't as close to them if you didn't find some way to let it come out.

That's why those we love most get some of our worst thoughts and feelings. They are getting more from us, both the good and the bad.

Well said.

[Ahab]

I'll just repeat what I said. We don't agree on religion much at all, but we have a lot more to our marriage that is more important than our religious differences.

We're getting closer and closer to agreement.

I'm simply saying that the things you have in common with your wife in your marriage are things that are a product of your common religious beliefs, while you still seem to be thinking that those things have nothing to do with your religions.

Not that I expect you to agree with my religious perspective. You don't have to agree for me to be right.

[Buckeye]

In my experience, the people who are most unfairly critical of others' beliefs are those who are least sure of their own. This applies to both believers and non-believers in LDS truth claims (and all along the spectrum of belief). To varing degrees, each of us needs to know that we are not alone in our beliefs because we're not 100% certain of them. We simply haven't lived long enough to reach the "I know" stage for most things.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Buckeye

[jkwilliams]

In my experience, the people who are most unfairly critical of others' beliefs are those who least sure of their own. This applies to both believers and non-believers in LDS truth claims (and all along the spectrum of belief). To varing degrees, each of us needs to know that we are not alone in our beliefs because we're not 100% certain of them. We simply haven't lived long enough to reach the "I know" stage for most things.

 

Yes, but some people on all sides of the argument are just jerks. I seem to recall Brigham Young saying that the longer we live, the more we understand just how much we don't know. Absolutely right.

[stemelbow]

In my experience, the people who are most unfairly critical of others' beliefs are those who are least sure of their own. This applies to both believers and non-believers in LDS truth claims (and all along the spectrum of belief). To varing degrees, each of us needs to know that we are not alone in our beliefs because we're not 100% certain of them. We simply haven't lived long enough to reach the "I know" stage for most things.

I'm reminded of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:

When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.

Perhaps.