Relief Society And Priesthood

[Rivers]

I just listened to an excellent podcast that Bill Reel put out. 

 

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/07/153-female-ordination/

 

It was one of the better conversations about female ordination I've heard.  They  panel members discuss the possibilties of what female ordination would look like and it got me thinking.  These ordain women advocates often bring up the fact that the men get most or all of the decision making power. Then I realized that I don't have much of any decision making authority.  I am ordained to the office of Elder in the priesthood but I am now a primary worker. I have to answer to women.  These women who are over me sit in ward council and are part of the decision making process. 

 

I  believe that men and women are equal and that they should work hand-in-hand in the work of the church.  I like to think of the relief society as a companion to the priesthood.  I have never been a big advocate for the ordain women movement but I do however feel that there is a lot the church can do to allow the relief society to live up to its full potential. 

[HappyJackWagon]

The main argument I hear is that women want a place at the table to discuss and decide important issues within the church. It's hard to argue against that. You may be in primary, getting direction from the Primary Presidency but the Primary Pres. is getting direction from the Bishopric so on the ward level the Primary Presidency is the middle manager. I think that is part of their problem. Women at best are in the middle management position.

 

Regarding Ward Council, the women are outnumbered 10-3 which can have impact on how comfortable they are to raise their voices. Like many things, much depends upon local leadership and how they interact and utilize women in their roles. Still, there are simple changes that wouldn't require any change to doctrine that would allow women to participate more. For example, is there a specific priesthood duty in serving as Sunday School President? Or could a woman serve there just as well and equalize the numbers in Ward Council. Or what about Ward Mission Leader, especially in a ward that has sister missionaries serving. In many ways it would make much more sense to have a woman serving as mission leader, again equalizing the ratio in Ward Council. What about having women serve as financial clerk? There is much that could change as a matter of policy that would give women a greater voice and role within the church leadership.

[Avatar4321]

I think the auxilaries have quite a bit of autonomy. The bishop calls them and gives counsel but for the most part the auxiliaries run themselves.

[HappyJackWagon]

I think the auxilaries have quite a bit of autonomy. The bishop calls them and gives counsel but for the most part the auxiliaries run themselves.

Depends on the leadership style of the bishop.

[Tacenda]

I've only listened to half of the podcast. I'd like the reference that women in the early church gave blessings and anointed men and women and not always family members. Maybe Bill posted it and I need to find it. But I had always thought women only gave blessings to other women not men as well.

It would be nice for women to have more authority as far as calling someone to be a counselor or signing off on a food order w/o a bishop's signature (personal experience witnessing presidents in auxiliaries), but see how the bishop knows things about ward members he can't discuss sometimes. So a RS president, for instance, is probably unaware of the dynamics of a ward family.

It's going to be where there will continue to be little changes, I hope for the better.

[rpn]

the bishop knows things about ward members he can't discuss sometimes. So a RS president, for instance, is probably unaware of the dynamics of a ward family.

Yes, the bishop knows confessional things that no one else should ever know about from him.  But I've never been in a ward where the RSP knew less than the bishop about the dynamics of the ward family.  And many women in many congregations also know more about the ward family than the male ward counsel members.  (And it isn't because of nosiness or gossip, it is because many women need and use other women for support systems.  It can fairly be said to be the way of women (though there are plenty of women who disavow it).)

[Tacenda]

Yes, the bishop knows confessional things that no one else should ever know about from him. But I've never been in a ward where the RSP knew less than the bishop about the dynamics of the ward family. And many women in many congregations also know more about the ward family than the male ward counsel members. (And it isn't because of nosiness or gossip, it is because many women need and use other women for support systems. It can fairly be said to be the way of women (though there are plenty of women who disavow it).)

So true, so true, everything you said. Dynamics was such a poor description. I should have just stayed on the confessional part.

[KevinG]

I had a Bishop I was counselor to, call my wife to be compassionate service coordinator so we could get the "real scoop" on what the sisters thought about the ward.  While majority/minority representation has real dynamics, there is some responsibility on the part of all players to listen and hear, as well as speak and be heard.

Edited July 28, 2015 by KevinG

[Jeanne]

I just listened to an excellent podcast that Bill Reel put out. 

 

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/07/153-female-ordination/

 

It was one of the better conversations about female ordination I've heard.  They  panel members discuss the possibilties of what female ordination would look like and it got me thinking.  These ordain women advocates often bring up the fact that the men get most or all of the decision making power. Then I realized that I don't have much of any decision making authority.  I am ordained to the office of Elder in the priesthood but I am now a primary worker. I have to answer to women.  These women who are over me sit in ward council and are part of the decision making process. 

 

I  believe that men and women are equal and that they should work hand-in-hand in the work of the church.  I like to think of the relief society as a companion to the priesthood.  I have never been a big advocate for the ordain women movement but I do however feel that there is a lot the church can do to allow the relief society to live up to its full potential. 

Good podcast..and appreciate it, but would this have even been on this board at all if it was a RS Sister's POV?  That being said, the women in the church still need the confirmation from the present priesthood..I hope that this gets out to those who are closed to even the good things that God would want in equality and the potential intelligence and talent that needs to get involved. 

[The Nehor]

The main argument I hear is that women want a place at the table to discuss and decide important issues within the church. It's hard to argue against that. You may be in primary, getting direction from the Primary Presidency but the Primary Pres. is getting direction from the Bishopric so on the ward level the Primary Presidency is the middle manager. I think that is part of their problem. Women at best are in the middle management position.

If you want to decide important issues in the church you are doing it wrong. The goal is to get the Lord's will. The bishop is as subservient there as he is to any other. The corporate analogy does not work.

[HappyJackWagon]

If you want to decide important issues in the church you are doing it wrong. The goal is to get the Lord's will. The bishop is as subservient there as he is to any other. The corporate analogy does not work.

The corporate analagy works great. It only fails to work if you believe God directs every detailed action within the church. Does anyone really believe that, or is the general idea that God leads the church through principles and then the individuals work and study to do things in a way they feel would be pleasing to God?

 

If God directs every detail why is there so much variation in administration from ward to ward & stake to stake?

 

The individual in the leadership position naturally imposes his own understanding and will upon the organization.

[The Nehor]

The corporate analagy works great. It only fails to work if you believe God directs every detailed action within the church. Does anyone really believe that, or is the general idea that God leads the church through principles and then the individuals work and study to do things in a way they feel would be pleasing to God?

 

If God directs every detail why is there so much variation in administration from ward to ward & stake to stake?

 

The individual in the leadership position naturally imposes his own understanding and will upon the organization.

I do not believe God directs every detailed action in the church. I believe we get a mixture of God's ideas and our leader's ideas but our goal is to elevate the former and diminish the latter. I definitely do not think God have given us principles and then leaves us to muddle through on our own while trying to adhere to them

There is variation partly because leaders inject their own ideas and partially because each Ward and stake and auxiliary and priesthood organization is unique. Even if the Lord were directing every detail it does not mean that every quorum would be run the same way because God has that whole omniscience thing that lets him customize.

The individual in the leadership position might do that but that should not be their goal. Coveting this influence that we want to minimize is even worse.

[ERayR]

Depends on the leadership style of the bishop.

 

And it you get a micro-management style Bishop nobody gets any autonomy.

[HappyJackWagon]

I do not believe God directs every detailed action in the church. I believe we get a mixture of God's ideas and our leader's ideas but our goal is to elevate the former and diminish the latter. I definitely do not think God have given us principles and then leaves us to muddle through on our own while trying to adhere to them

There is variation partly because leaders inject their own ideas and partially because each Ward and stake and auxiliary and priesthood organization is unique. Even if the Lord were directing every detail it does not mean that every quorum would be run the same way because God has that whole omniscience thing that lets him customize.

The individual in the leadership position might do that but that should not be their goal. Coveting this influence that we want to minimize is even worse.

 

 

And it you get a micro-management style Bishop nobody gets any autonomy.

 

Right, but what you always get is leadership from a male perspective. If the bishop micromanages, it's worse.

[ERayR]

Right, but what you always get is leadership from a male perspective. If the bishop micromanages, it's worse.

 

I have sat in a great many ward council meetings and have not found this to be true.  For the most part thr RS, YW and Primary leaders run their own programs and the Bishops would ask them what they needed. 

[The Nehor]

Right, but what you always get is leadership from a male perspective. If the bishop micromanages, it's worse.

Ideally you get the Lord's perspective. The counterbalance to an overly expressed male perspective is to mix in more of God's. A female perspective is not an improvement over the male one.

[The Nehor]

I have sat in a great many ward council meetings and have not found this to be true.  For the most part thr RS, YW and Primary leaders run their own programs and the Bishops would ask them what they needed.

Yeah, most of what I saw was the Bishop staying informed, making large-scale decisions, and only occasionally dipping down into specific programs and then only if there is a specific reason or the Spirit so directs.

[HappyJackWagon]

Ideally you get the Lord's perspective. The counterbalance to an overly expressed male perspective is to mix in more of God's. A female perspective is not an improvement over the male one.

A female perspective adds balance.

[HappyJackWagon]

I have sat in a great many ward council meetings and have not found this to be true.  For the most part thr RS, YW and Primary leaders run their own programs and the Bishops would ask them what they needed. 

Of course, ward council isn't the only place this would happen. Bishopric advisor to the RS or YW or PR also has significant influence on the organization, all the way from personnel to budget issues. The man holds the power. He is the gate keeper through which the woman must always work to get what she wants/needs. This is male privilege.

[The Nehor]

A female perspective adds balance.

That is the thing. I don't want balance. I want the will of God as pure as you can get it to me. I don't care about balance in the leftover contaminants being equally distributed.

[ERayR]

Yeah, most of what I saw was the Bishop staying informed, making large-scale decisions, and only occasionally dipping down into specific programs and then only if there is a specific reason or the Spirit so directs.

 

And the RS President attended PEC meeting as a full contributing member of that committee.

[HappyJackWagon]

That is the thing. I don't want balance. I want the will of God as pure as you can get it to me. I don't care about balance in the leftover contaminants being equally distributed.

But you've already admitted that it doesn't happen in real life. You're talking about the ideal which doesn't exist. In lieu of the ideal we can make it better with balance

[The Nehor]

And the RS President attended PEC meeting as a full contributing member of that committee.

I admit I never really understood PEC. It seemed like everything in it could just be moved to Ward Council. Seemed like an excuse to have another meeting.

[The Nehor]

But you've already admitted that it doesn't happen in real life. You're talking about the ideal which doesn't exist. In lieu of the ideal we can make it better with balance

"We" can't. Short of revelation we cannot make women bishops or give them the priesthood or anything else.

I am also generally not a fan in the gospel at working at second-best things. It is like debating the relative merits of two other faiths when you should be striving to live the gospel. While some adaptations are needed due to being in a fallen world they are minor in the scheme of things. I have not admitted that it never happens in real life. I have seen leaders rise above their limitations and serve as a mouthpiece of God.

[ERayR]

Of course, ward council isn't the only place this would happen. Bishopric advisor to the RS or YW or PR also has significant influence on the organization, all the way from personnel to budget issues. The man holds the power. He is the gate keeper through which the woman must always work to get what she wants/needs. This is male privilege.

 

I just have not seen this.  You mention budget as an example.  The last Bishopric I served in the organizations were asked to plan their programs and submit a budget request to cover their program needs.  I never saw a budget request cut.  Most times it was increased if there was special events.