True Church Or True Gospel

[Saint Sinner]

Convenient because the statement cannot be verified.  "Truly authentic" is in the eye of the beholder and we have no "authento-meter" to help us.

Perhaps it is easier to contend that "truly authentic" does not exist.

[Bobbieaware]

http://www.biblestudying.net/baptism6.html

Where do these ideas come from?

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, abd arose, AND WAS BAPTIZED. (Acts 9)

Why should we not take the above passages at their simple word? Why should we not logically reason that these verses mean Paul arose from the place where he languished for three days, due to losing his hearing and sight. and was taken from there to a place where he was baptized in water? At very least these verses are logically open to this perfectly reasonable interpretation. To read these verses and conclude Paul's baptism was not by the usual method of immersion in water is nothing but a poorly-supported assumption. Even the Savior was baptized in water to fulfill all righteousness, so why not Paul? Does the following verse cause you to assume Mary didn't literally go to a city in Juda just because she first AROSE before she went to that city?

39 And Mary AROSE in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda. (Luke 1)

And why would Psul teach the following about baptism if he believed water baptism was unnecessary?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6)

To say in the above verses that Paul is not speaking of being "buried" or "planted" in water would be another unsupportable, poorly-reasoned assumption.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[CV75]

In the generations thread, Halconero made an important distinction. He stated his parents being baptized into the Gospel. Though I'm not sure the distinction was intended, I thought this subject worth discussing.

So as to head off derails of whether or not the Church itself is true, I ask that that contention be set aside.

I ask, are we baptized into the Church or the Gospel? If we are baptized into one and not the other, what does that make evident of our faith journey? Likewise, if we're baptized into both, what does that say? In both cases, what responds deepest in our hearts that are the motivating factors?

Does the truthfulness of the Gospel mandate an institutional baptism or a baptism acknowledging the blood and sacrifice and the mission of the Risen Christ?

Thoughts?

D&C 20:37-41 says, “And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church. The duty of the elders, priests, teachers, deacons, and members of the church of Christ—An apostle is an elder, and it is his calling to baptize… And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures…”

 

The Book of Mormon has lots of references to the connection between baptism and coming into the church.

 

3 Nephi 27 talks a lot about the connection between the church and the gospel. Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel [His mission and the associated first principles and ordinances, and enduring to the end—see verses 6-20]; and ye know the things that ye [those with the keys] must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do…”

 

So, I think we are baptized into His mission (Gospel) which is part and parcel of being baptized into His Church (His body) because baptism entails taking His name upon us.

 

I would say that the truthfulness of the Gospel is reflected in exercsising faith in the institutional baptism (outward performance) which acknowledges the blood and sacrifice and the mission of the Risen Christ. Just as the body and spirit must be insepararbly connected for a fulness of joy, so must be the organization and power of Christ.

[Storm Rider]

Gnostics, Ebionites, Patripassians, Marcionites, Docetists.

 

These were later communities; I thought you were talking about the period during the lives of the apostles.  There were several communities and several different centers of teaching and what was emphasized in each community. 

[Meadowchik]

Apparently, just as in creation all was created spiritually before it was created physically, salvation means that all must be baptised physically to complete spiritual baptism. This is why we do proxy work in the temples.

 

Yes, it is possible to go through the physical motions without having a spiritual change of heart and without doing the spiritual work. The blessings of that spiritual work, then, won't be rewarded.

[Saint Sinner]

Where do these ideas come from?

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, abd arose, AND WAS BAPTIZED. (Acts 9)

Why should we not take the above passages at their simple word? Why should we not logically reason that these verses mean Paul arose from the place where he languished for three days, due to losing his hearing and sight. and was taken from there to a place where he was baptized in water? At very least these verses are logically open to this perfectly reasonable interpretation. To read these verses and conclude Paul's baptism was not by the usual method of immersion in water is nothing but a poorly-supported assumption. Even the Savior was baptized in water to fulfill all righteousness, so why not Paul? Does the following verse cause you to assume Mary didn't literally go to a city in Juda just because she first AROSE before she went to that city?

39 And Mary AROSE in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda. (Luke 1)

And why would Psul teach the following about baptism if he believed water baptism was unnecessary?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6)

To say in the above verses that Paul is not speaking of being "buried" or "planted" in water would be another unsupportable, poorly-reasoned assumption.

Are you dealing with the text in its original language or suggesting an interpretation that presumes to know better than the writers? If the latter, you have a great deal of problems on your hands.

[Saint Sinner]

D&C 20:37-41 says, “And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church. The duty of the elders, priests, teachers, deacons, and members of the church of Christ—An apostle is an elder, and it is his calling to baptize… And to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures…”

The Book of Mormon has lots of references to the connection between baptism and coming into the church.

3 Nephi 27 talks a lot about the connection between the church and the gospel. Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel [His mission and the associated first principles and ordinances, and enduring to the end—see verses 6-20]; and ye know the things that ye [those with the keys] must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do…”

So, I think we are baptized into His mission (Gospel) which is part and parcel of being baptized into His Church (His body) because baptism entails taking His name upon us.

I would say that the truthfulness of the Gospel is reflected in exercsising faith in the institutional baptism (outward performance) which acknowledges the blood and sacrifice and the mission of the Risen Christ. Just as the body and spirit must be insepararbly connected for a fulness of joy, so must be the organization and power of Christ.

But this does not address fully the premise of the thread in which I cited another person's wording. Edited July 23, 2015 by Saint Sinner

[Saint Sinner]

These were later communities; I thought you were talking about the period during the lives of the apostles.  There were several communities and several different centers of teaching and what was emphasized in each community.

Not all these communities were 2nd century and beyond. The influence of the Essenes is quite evident in first century Christianity and later influenced others.

[Saint Sinner]

Let's get back on track. Does baptism into the Gospel preclude and hold more validity than the other way around?

From the perspective of the scriptures the Church is not the endgame or goal but is the Gospel.

[Ahab]

Let's get back on track. Does baptism into the Gospel preclude and hold more validity than the other way around?

How do you define being baptized into the gospel? What the heck does that mean? Baptism is an ordinance of the gospel, as mentioned in article 4 of our articles of faith, so by being baptized we are accepting the gospel, but what the heck do you mean by saying we are baptized into the gospel? And what do you mean when you say we are baptized into the Church?

I see it like this: The Church declares the gospel, through representatives of the Church, who themselves are commissioned and ordained by the Lord over his Church, and declaring the gospel involves telling and explaining what the gospel is and involves. And then anyone who hears the declarations chooses whether or not to accept the gospel as it has been declared and explained. And then the next step for those who accept the gospel is to show their acceptance by physical acts. They themselves declare that they accept the gospel as it has been declared and explained, an expression of their faith and desire/intent to repent, and then they are baptized by someone in the Church who has the aurhority to baptize them, and then they are confirmed as a member of the Church themselves, and then they are told to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost who will continue to teach them and guide them in their new life as a disciple of Christ.

You seem to have some other ideas about what baptism is and is all about.

From the perspective of the scriptures the Church is not the endgame or goal but is the Gospel.

The gospel is all about helping people to become as perfect as our Father is perfect, and our Lord does that by inviting us to become part of his Church and stick to the program. Edited July 23, 2015 by Ahab

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps it is easier to contend that "truly authentic" does not exist.

Whatever that means.

[CV75]

But this does not address fully the premise of the thread in which I cited another person's wording.

Please point out what part of the premise is not adressed and I'll be happy to participate further.

[CV75]

Let's get back on track. Does baptism into the Gospel preclude and hold more validity than the other way around?

From the perspective of the scriptures the Church is not the endgame or goal but is the Gospel.

If by "Gospel" you mean "Exaltation" (Romans  8:16, 17; Philippians 2:5, 6), then yes, the Gospel is ceratinly the "end game."

[Saint Sinner]

To those I've debated with in this thread, I'm conceding. I realized that I was trying to argue LDS theology when I don't really know what it is.

[ERayR]

In the generations thread, Halconero made an important distinction. He stated his parents being baptized into the Gospel. Though I'm not sure the distinction was intended, I thought this subject worth discussing.

So as to head off derails of whether or not the Church itself is true, I ask that that contention be set aside.

I ask, are we baptized into the Church or the Gospel? If we are baptized into one and not the other, what does that make evident of our faith journey? Likewise, if we're baptized into both, what does that say? In both cases, what responds deepest in our hearts that are the motivating factors?

Does the truthfulness of the Gospel mandate an institutional baptism or a baptism acknowledging the blood and sacrifice and the mission of the Risen Christ?

Thoughts?

 

The Church is the organized framework for the administration of the Gospel so to participate in the Gospel ordinances one does so thru Church membership.

[Saint Sinner]

I'm not talking about all the other stuff that comes after baptism. That is irrelevant to the discussion. The Gospel is Christ personified. Baptism into the Gospel is unifying ourselves with the Savior. Baptism is a commitment to Christ but not a church.

[ERayR]

I'm not talking about all the other stuff that comes after baptism. That is irrelevant to the discussion. The Gospel is Christ personified. Baptism into the Gospel is unifying ourselves with the Savior. Baptism is a commitment to Christ but not a church.

 

Baptism is an ordinance performed under the auspices of a church and is a commitment to the church whose authority it was performed.

[CV75]

I'm not talking about all the other stuff that comes after baptism. That is irrelevant to the discussion. The Gospel is Christ personified. Baptism into the Gospel is unifying ourselves with the Savior. Baptism is a commitment to Christ but not a church.

Where do you get the definition that the Gospel (what Christ did) is Christ personified? I think it's actually the other way around, that Christ is His Father's work and glory personified.

 

Baptism into the Church (becoming a member of the body of Christ) and into the Gospel (death of our former selves operating under our own power and rebirth into a new life under the name or power of Christ) are commitments to Christ. Just as we have a body and spirit, we have a Church and the power of God All that  we do with these must be committed to Christ in order to have happiness now and in the afterlife.

[Saint Sinner]

Baptism is an ordinance performed under the auspices of a church and is a commitment to the church whose authority it was performed.

This question is not meant to be snarky. But can someone please provide John the Baptists line of authority and priesthood ordination documentation? Again, that was not meant to be snarky but assuming authority based on lineage and tradition doesn't seem sufficient.

The point of the question was to assert that Christ was baptized prior to establishing a church. I suppose Christ is not a Christian and is not a member of any church. He only established a church community that spread and drew people to God.

[Bobbieaware]

I'm not talking about all the other stuff that comes after baptism. That is irrelevant to the discussion. The Gospel is Christ personified. Baptism into the Gospel is unifying ourselves with the Savior. Baptism is a commitment to Christ but not a church.

In the Book of Mormon, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ gives his own definition of the Gospel. I'm wondering if you think the Book of Mormon Christ"s definition of the Gospel squares with your understanding of what you believe the Gospel is? Here it is:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day. (3 Nephi 27)

Edited July 24, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Saint Sinner]

Where do you get the definition that the Gospel (what Christ did) is Christ personified? I think it's actually the other way around, that Christ is His Father's work and glory personified.

 

Baptism into the Church (becoming a member of the body of Christ) and into the Gospel (death of our former selves operating under our own power and rebirth into a new life under the name or power of Christ) are commitments to Christ. Just as we have a body and spirit, we have a Church and the power of God All that  we do with these must be committed to Christ in order to have happiness now and in the afterlife.

Perhaps I'm assuming Christ came before the Gospel.

[Saint Sinner]

In the Book of Mormon, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ gives his own definition of the Gospel. I'm wondering if you think the Book of Mormon Christ"s definition of the Gospel squares with your understanding of what you believe the Gospel is? Here it is:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day. (3 Nephi 27)

This helps, Bobbie. Thank you. I can't call myself a believer as I don't know what to believe. The purpose of the thread was to reason out a theological question and everyone has been quite helpful and I am grateful.

[ERayR]

This question is not meant to be snarky. But can someone please provide John the Baptists line of authority and priesthood ordination documentation? Again, that was not meant to be snarky but assuming authority based on lineage and tradition doesn't seem sufficient.

The point of the question was to assert that Christ was baptized prior to establishing a church. I suppose Christ is not a Christian and is not a member of any church. He only established a church community that spread and drew people to God.

 

Try this.  Johns ordination is toward the end.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/09/john-the-baptist-a-burning-and-a-shining-light?lang=eng

 

Reference:

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/84.28?lang=eng#27

[filovirus]

"I'd like to bury my testimony, and I know the church is true." How often have we heard children get up during fast and testimony meeting and state this phrase?

I don't think we can argue that the Gospel (Doctrine of Christ) contains all the truths that are needed for exaltation. Hence the Gospel is true.

I don't think that having the Gospel be true excludes the church from being true. The Church of Jesus Christ is the only true and living church that contains the saving ordinances, or rather, as of now it is the guardian of the priesthood and the keeper of the ordinances. Other churches may contain truths, but they cannot be His true church without authority from God. We are told in D&C to unite with the true church.

The true Gospel is a different concept than the true church.

[Broker]

And this is why I said, in the post that follows yours, that there is no COMPLETE conversion without joining the Church that has the true divine authority. Eventually all, except the sons of perdition, will be converted through the missionary work of those who hold the true priesthood, either in this world or in the spirit world. It is my informed opinion that there will be no salvation for anyone, in any of the degrees of glory, without first acknowledging and coming unto the God of the Restoration.

I agree with you that  membership in the  Church is required for complete conversion. I don't agree that everybody will eventually be fully converted, so that they can be saved in one of the many Kingdoms of God. I think there is a place for many different levels of understanding, commitment and conversion. The scriptures tend to very much simply the distinction between true Christians and non-Christians. I don't think reality is that simple.