Danzo Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 However this case comes out legally is fine with me. That is how our government works. If there is a law that I disagree with i work to change that law. I certainly don't expect that I can break the law that I disagree with and not face consequences. I assume the bakers feel the same way. One way to work to change a law is to break the law and get a judicial opinion on its validity. 2
Stargazer Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Yes, if the straight couple files a lawsuit, and if they have a good lawyer. Oregon has a nondiscrimination laws which protect people from being fired or refused services on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity. PS Can you name a gay bakery that refused to bake a straight wedding cake? PS: Can You? No, I didn't think so. I don't even know anyone any more who is a baker. The last one I knew changed careers to an animal cremator; a minor change from burning grains to burning pets.
Danzo Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Do you know if this bakery does clay models for all of their wedding cakes or just when requested? Was.a clay mockup asked for by the gay couple? In my discussion with the attorney, she just indicated that it was normal to do so. I don't think the engagement with mother of one of the gay couple proceeded to the point where a clay mock up would have been expected.
ERayR Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 You said that Christians lose their jobs, you didn't specify that private institutions didn't count. In many states, employers can refuse to hire transsexuals.https://www.aclu.org/map/non-discrimination-laws-state-state-information-map CFR about Denmark, findland, and sweden, and is it higher than the USA? According to the Global Peace Index Report, Denmark, findland, and sweden are among the most peaceful countries on Earth.The UK, france, and Italy are less peaceful. http://www.visionofhumanity.org/http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eglg45fglkm/peaceable-kingdoms/https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/non-economic-data/most-peaceful-countries but how does it compare to the USA? Netherlands is not on the top 10, but it ranks number 20 according to the Global Peace Index Report. and many LDS need a good dose of lds teachings too because there are more LDS in prison than Atheist and Hindus in prison. more peaceful doesn't mean totally peaceful. According to this we should all become Krishna. PS Can you name a gay bakery that refused to bake a straight wedding cake? Inane response. Totally irrelevant.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 PS Can you name a gay bakery that refused to bake a straight wedding cake?To show you the irrelevance of your comment, can you find me a gay baker that find straight weddings morally reprehensible and that that goes against their long held religious convictions? The answer will be No. Because such does not exist.
why me Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) more peaceful doesn't mean totally peaceful. The USA has a population of close to 400 million. If one would give the same population to any of the secular countries you mention, domestic violence would be epidemic proportions. Here is what the Finnish media reported about domestic violence: http://yle.fi/uutiset/finland_is_eus_second_most_violent_country_for_women/7120601A major new study by the EU’s Fundamental Rights Agency has found that 47 percent of women in Finland have experienced physical or sexual violence at some time since the age of 15. Only Danish women were found to have experienced more abuse out of the 28 countries studied. Image: Mikko Stig / Lehtikuva Over the past year 42,000 women were interviewed across the whole European Union for the research, in the most extensive study into violence against women and girls ever conducted.In all of the six main areas covered by the survey, Finland was found to have levels of physical and sexual violence against women that were at times significantly above the European average. Almost half of Finnish women - 47 percent - reported having experienced physical and/or sexual violence since the age of 15, compared to a Europe-wide average of 33 percent.Slightly higher numbers of women in Finland said they had experienced physical violence by a non-partner (30 percent) than those suffering physical abuse from a partner (27 percent). However, in both these cases the levels in Finland were around 50 per cent higher than the European average of 20 per cent.Milla Aaltonen, from the Finnish League for Human Rights – the country's representative of the Fundamental Rights Agency, who carried out the research – said that the prevalence of domestic abuse has been known about for a long time. “Nonetheless, these figures are shocking,” she said. “Violence against women is a serious human rights violation. Today’s study confirms that Finland is one of Europe’s most violent places for women,” Aaltonen said. And then we have this: http://yle.fi/uutiset/paper_finlands_child_murder_rate_highest_in_the_west/5466450Paper: Finland’s child murder rate highest in the West More children are killed in Finland than in any other western country, according to the Sunday newspaper supplement Sunnuntaisuomalainen. Finland has especially high numbers of fatal assaults on under one-year-olds. Some 50,000 children each year suffer some form of assault from their parents. Children are most often killed by mothers afflicted by mental problems.According to research led by child psychiatrist Anne Kauppi, about 200 children in Finland lost their lives at the hands of their parents in 1970-1994. Risk factors in such cases include self-destructive behaviours among parents, their heavy use of alcohol and domestic violence.However, in the last 50 years the risk to be killed by parents has declined due to abortion law, increased welfare and support for families.In the last few years, the number of cases has nonetheless risen.Kauppi says that mothers and fathers need more tangible help. Finland needs a good dose of lds family values. Both statistics were published in 2014. Are the lds perfect? No. But they are taught what makes a good family. However, they still have free will to act the way they do. Edited July 8, 2015 by why me 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) The USA has a population of close to 400 million. \ That is why we look at the rate. Denmark has a very low murder rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country And then we have this: I will check it out later, I am busy, just a fast reply To show you the irrelevance of your comment, can you find me a gay baker that find straight weddings morally reprehensible and that that goes against their long held religious convictions? The answer will be No. Because such does not exist. Tell that to Stargazer, see his post 217 According to this we should all become Krishna The data is not telling you to become something, it is simply data. PS The data is questionable, but I found new data, and it is worst and more sad, see below. Edited July 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
Mystery Meat Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 That is why we look at the rate. Denmark has a very low murder rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country I will check it out later, I am busy, just a fast reply Tell that to Stargazer, see his post 217 The data is not telling you to become something, it is simply data. PS There are very few Americans that are Krishna. The sad reality is that there are more Atheists than Mormons in the USA, but it's the other way around in the prison population. Did what you provide measure state and federal prison, or only federal?
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Mystery Meat, This is off-topic from the turn the discussion has taken (and perhaps it was discussed in detail back on Page 385 of this thread ) but it's too bad that ALJs are not, apparently, subject to the Judicial Code of Conduct. If they were, the comments by this ALJ, before he even heard the case, would have earned him swift and severe censure from his judicial colleagues. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420865/christian-baker-gay-wedding-cake 4
Mystery Meat Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 Mystery Meat, This is off-topic from the turn the discussion has taken (and perhaps it was discussed in detail back on Page 385 of this thread ) but it's too bad that ALJs are not, apparently, subject to the Judicial Code of Conduct. If they were, the comments by this ALJ, before he even heard the case, would have earned him swift and severe censure from his judicial colleagues. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420865/christian-baker-gay-wedding-cake Yup, that about sums up how fixed, rigged and dare I say corrupt this whole kangaroo court actually was. 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Yup, that about sums up how fixed, rigged and dare I say corrupt this whole kangaroo court actually was. Perhaps the kangaroo court is corrupt, but I don't trust the National Review, I am skeptical because the writers for National Review have made false accusations in the past, and their science is bad. Look for objective nonpartisan articles. Did what you provide measure state and federal prison, or only federal? I can't verity that data, so we need to be skeptical, but here is new datahttp://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/16/what-percentage-of-prisoners-are-atheists-its-a-lot-smaller-than-we-ever-imagined/ Edited July 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) The Skeptic Christian, What difference does it make whether you trust the source? Either the ALJ said what he's been reported to have said before he heard the case, or he didn't. That should be easily verifiable enough. Or are you positing that, somehow, nobody who's sympathetic to the ALJ or to his point of view (not to mention the ALJ himself) would scream bloody murder if his views were misreported or misrepresented? If the latter, all I can say is, "Oh. That's ... interesting." Edited July 8, 2015 by Kenngo1969 1
Calm Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) As far as religions of inmates, there is no date given for when they converted or if they were born in the faith they choose to label themselves as so it could have happened after they committed the crime or were imprisoned. Mormons have ministries to prisons (not sure all, but I know of several). It is possible that while they cannot be baptized while in prison iirc, they identify as LDS because they are attempting to become LDS---which would be a good thing imo. Also the whole argument atheists are not less moral based on jail stats doesn't work because they may instead be less prone to committing crimes that you get jail time for, they may be less moral in areas that are not illegal (such as sexual misconduct or just not being nice people), they may be smarter and less prone to getting caught. Or atheists may have a change of heart when jailed and come to realize there is a God and identify themselves with a faith at that time. For a skeptic, you are really eager to accept some stats as saying stuff they don't. Edited July 8, 2015 by calmoriah 2
Danzo Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) The Skeptic Christian, What difference does it make whether you trust the source? Either the ALJ said what he's been reported to have said before he heard the case, or he didn't. That should be easily verifiable enough. Or are you positing that, somehow, nobody who's sympathetic to the ALJ or to his point of view (not to mention the ALJ himself) would scream bloody murder if his views were misreported or misrepresented? If the latter, all I can say is, "Oh. That's ... interesting." just a slight correction, Brad is the commissioner of BOLI, not an ALJ. But in Oregon, he has the power to overrule any decision by the ALJ. The fact stands, that the outcome of this was determined long before any evidence was issued or any law was considered. There was no way Brad could have cause the ruling to go any other way and still keep his political base happy. Edited July 8, 2015 by Danzo 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) As far as religions of inmates, there is no date given for when they converted or if they were born in the faith they choose to label themselves as so it could have happened after they committed the crime or were imprisoned. We should be happy about the stats. The data shows that we are the most Christian religion in America. There are more Mormons than Adventists in the USA, but there are more Adventists in prison. I hope Adventists are not saying that Adventists prisoners used to be LDS. Mormons have ministries to prisons (not sure all, but I know of several). It is possible that while they cannot be baptized while in prison iirc, they identify as LDS because they are attempting to become LDS---which would be a good thing imo. Are you saying most LDS prisoners used to be atheist? Even if true, the atheist prison population should be much bigger, but it is not. According to Pew, 1.6% of America is Mormon, 3.1% is Atheist, and 4% is agnostic, that is significantly bigger. and Atheists can make the same argument. Atheists can claim that prisoners become Atheist after being in jail for years. Kent Hovind is probably now an Atheist. So your argument doesn't work. PS Missionaries rarely convert Dawkin Atheists For a skeptic, you are really eager to accept some stats as saying stuff they don't. I am skeptical, I hope there are less LDS in prison than any other group. I am not saying the stats are the infallible word of God. What did I say? Please do not add words to my mouth. I agree there are no perfect stats. I said, "are more LDS in prison than Atheist and Hindus in prison" which seems to be true. Did they convert after being arrested? Maybe, but it still doesn't change that fact. I hope you are right, I hope the LDS in prison are former Atheists. Also the whole argument atheists are not less moral based on jail stats doesn't work because they may instead be less prone to committing crimes that you get jail time for, they may be less moral in areas that are not illegal (such as sexual misconduct or just not being nice people), Dawkin Atheists may be rude online, but they are nice people in person. In my experience, atheists have been nicer to me than Catholics or Evangelicals. PS I never said Atheists and Hindus are not less moral, and how do you define morality? Does it come from Divine command? Is morality subjective or objective? Edited July 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
Mystery Meat Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 Perhaps the kangaroo court is corrupt, but I don't trust the National Review, I am skeptical because the writers for National Review have made false accusations in the past, and their science is bad. Look for objective nonpartisan articles. I can't verity that data, so we need to be skeptical, but here is new datahttp://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/16/what-percentage-of-prisoners-are-atheists-its-a-lot-smaller-than-we-ever-imagined/ The new data you have provided is also from the Federal Prison system. This tells us nothing about the states' prison systems. It would also be interesting to see how many prisoners start to identify as religious once they get to prison. Having clerked for a judge with a criminal docket, it is no uncommon (and by uncommon I mean every single offender does it) for a person brought before the judge to talk about how religious they have become and how they have found god since the incident to try and find sympathy and lighter sentences. I imagine it would be equally common among inmates who are hoping for parole and good behavior. Based on my experience in criminal law I don't think much (if any) stock can be put into the numbers you have selectively provided.
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) They do not because there are too many unidentified variables. It shouldn't have taken him a whole lot of critical thinking to realize that these numbers are essentially meaningless. So why no throw all surveys and polls under the bus? No stat is perfect, and it is extremely easy to think of unidentified variables. I understand you don't like those numbers, but it doesn't mean we should dismiss them as meaningless, especially because there is a significant difference in the numbers, and especially because the source is unbiased. Do you have a better study? I agree the stats are not the infallible word of God, but that is the best I found. , thus you are not being skeptical enough. It is easy to be skeptical about stuff that we don't like. Do you also dismiss the stats that you like? Do you also dismiss the stats that you like? Edited July 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
Calm Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 I hope Adventists are not saying that Adventists prisoners used to be LDS. Not what I said. What I pointed out is you can't tell anything about the religion of the person in the past by the religion they claim now or the level of morality, etc. There may have been more who identified as LDS when they committed the crime, there may be less, there may be identical. There may have been more who were atheist who converted in prison, there may be more who converted to atheism, there may have been no change overall. That you even posted the stats mean you think they support your argument, thus you are not being skeptical enough. They do not because there are too many unidentified variables. 1
Mystery Meat Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 Not what I said. What I pointed out is you can't tell anything about the religion of the person in the past by the religion they claim now or the level of morality, etc. There may have been more who identified as LDS when they committed the crime, there may be less, there may be identical. There may have been more who were atheist who converted in prison, there may be more who converted to atheism, there may have been no change overall. That you even posted the stats mean you think they support your argument, thus you are not being skeptical enough. They do not because there are too many unidentified variables. It shouldn't have taken him a whole lot of critical thinking to realize that these numbers are essentially meaningless.
Danzo Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Perhaps the kangaroo court is corrupt, but I don't trust the National Review, I am skeptical because the writers for National Review have made false accusations in the past, and their science is bad. Look for objective nonpartisan articles. It was a Kangaroo court, and there was no need for an article from the National Review to tell us that. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 The new data you have provided is also from the Federal Prison system. This tells us nothing about the states' prison systems. It would also be interesting to see how many prisoners start to identify as religious once they get to prison. Having clerked for a judge with a criminal docket, it is no uncommon (and by uncommon I mean every single offender does it) for a person brought before the judge to talk about how religious they have become and how they have found god since the incident to try and find sympathy and lighter sentences. I imagine it would be equally common among inmates who are hoping for parole and good behavior. Based on my experience in criminal law I don't think much (if any) stock can be put into the numbers you have selectively provided.You know, just once, I'd like to see a death-row inmate say, "I've been reborn since being incarcerated, and, you know what? I know my crimes have deeply hurt the family and friends of the person I've killed. I'm sorry for all the pain I've caused. There's no way even my own death can make up for that, but to whatever extent it can, I'm ready and willing to pay that price."
Kenngo1969 Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 You see it in TV programs from time to time. Fictional or documentaries?
Calm Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Fictional or documentaries? Fictional, the one I remember clearly was a "Lie to Me" episode...his job is to find out whether the man's conversion from a violent gang leader to someone trying to get the gangs to be at peace is for real. Edited July 9, 2015 by calmoriah
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 You know, just once, I'd like to see a death-row inmate say, "I've been reborn since being incarcerated, and, you know what? I know my crimes have deeply hurt the family and friends of the person I've killed. I'm sorry for all the pain I've caused. There's no way even my own death can make up for that, but to whatever extent it can, I'm ready and willing to pay that price."Jeffery Dahmer count?I feel very, very bad about the crimes I've committed. In fact, I think I should have been put to death by the state for what I did.
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